NIB to start charging for *all* their current accounts

homer911

Confirmed today in a letter to my wife, haven't got mine yet but it was clear that the Freebank Current account is gone - will have to look into alternatives because they would even charge both of us for transferring money between our accounts in the same branch!

earlyapex

What if you pay your mortgage with them from a free (easy) current account you were forced to open with them when you switched your mortgage to NIB?

Are they then breaching the terms agreed between us for the mortgage?

Can I now choose to close the NIB current account and pay the mortgage through a current account in another bank?

They haven't mentioned this arrangement or any odd mortgage arrangement like this in their letter I got today.

Edit: I found this on their website:

I only use my account to pay my mortgage/personal loan. Will I still move to 24/7 ?
In this instance your account will migrate to a similar non-fee paying account. If however, you have a chequebook or card attached to your account you will move to 24/7.

Seems I will be ok then, but I will call them tomorrow anyway.

homer911

Still waiting to hear, I almost feel deprived!

aw

For those of you with mortgages, be very careful.

It is in the Terms and Conditions of some of the ECB Trackers and other low rate mortgages that you MUST have a package account, ie 24/7, Easy Plus or Prestige to keep the preferential rate.

If you close this, you will lose your tracker.

€20 < €000's onto your mortgage.

cdev

aw wrote: »

For those of you with mortgages, be very careful.

It is in the Terms and Conditions of some of the ECB Trackers and other low rate mortgages that you MUST have a package account, ie 24/7, Easy Plus or Prestige to keep the preferential rate.

If you close this, you will lose your tracker.

€20 < €000's onto your mortgage.

I don't think it's going to be that easy for NIB to take trackers off people.

Restriction 3.17 of the Central Bank Consumer Protection Code forbids banks from making the sale of a product or service contingent on the consumer purchasing another product or service from them. As I see it, once NIB introduce charges on these mortgage servicing accounts they will be breaching this restriction.

I've written to my branch manager and the National Consumer Agency to seek clarification on this. I would urge anyone in a similar position to do likewise.

Elessar

It's a shame about the fees. I've banked with them since I was a kid. I know the local branch staff personally, there's free parking at it (a godsend where I live), their online banking is fantastic, they're always very friendly and I've never had any problems. I'm willing to pay €75/year to maintain all this and not have the hassle of changing my bank account. That's the way every bank is heading, including Ulster.

Though I hope they are not closing more branches or exiting Ireland. Despite my reservations, going cashless has turned out to be a great thing - there are more post offices than branches and my local PO is open late everyday and on weekends, better than any bank.

Galadriel

Elessar wrote: »

It's a shame about the fees. I've banked with them since I was a kid. I know the local branch staff personally, there's free parking at it (a godsend where I live), their online banking is fantastic, they're always very friendly and I've never had any problems. I'm willing to pay €75/year to maintain all this and not have the hassle of changing my bank account. That's the way every bank is heading, including Ulster.

Though I hope they are not closing more branches or exiting Ireland. Despite my reservations, going cashless has turned out to be a great thing - there are more post offices than branches and my local PO is open late everyday and on weekends, better than any bank.

I'm the same and don't really want to change but can you take money out from the post offices? If you can't then I don't think it's really fair to charge for all ATM transactions as they are a cashless bank and you have no other option.

earlyapex

I rang the number in the letter and explained how I only used the current account to service the mortgage. The guy checked the account for number of transactions in a month and for existence of a cheque book on it.
Since I don't have a cheque book linked to it and have less than 6 transactions in a month, it's classed as being a service style current account.
So it will not carry any fees.

I asked for this in writing and he put a note on my file that we talked about this and a letter will be sent out to me.
So I wait now, but it was simple, done in 2 minutes but why couldn't they have put this in their original letter?

meemeep

earlyapex wrote: »

I rang the number in the letter and explained how I only used the current account to service the mortgage. The guy checked the account for number of transactions in a month and for existence of a cheque book on it.
Since I don't have a cheque book linked to it and have less than 6 transactions in a month, it's classed as being a service style current account.
So it will not carry any fees.

I asked for this in writing and he put a note on my file that we talked about this and a letter will be sent out to me.
So I wait now, but it was simple, done in 2 minutes but why couldn't they have put this in their original letter?

That's brilliant. I can send back my laser card and leave the account just for this so. Will call into local branch to set this up. Thanks for the information.

earlyapex

They rang me back this afternoon and he was saying now that because its a tracker mortgage serviced from the current account, that it will move to a 24/7 account with charges.
I then challenged this stating that the current account was a condition of my original mortgage agreement and I can't be forced to take another service along with it, that paying for this enforced current account would be a breach of mortage conditions.

He said I had raised a good point and would send a note to the branch and confirm my mortage terms and get back to me either himself or someone from the branch will ring me.

What a mess!
Their staff aren't clear on the conditions with this, people are getting different answers.
Ring them and get it confirmed in writing like I am trying to do.

meemeep

earlyapex - somehow I'm not surprised by that answer. I'll call into my branch in the morning (not that there is really any such thing anymore) and see what they say.

Shifty

Its very confusing as the FAQ on their website says

' I only use my account to pay my mortgage/personal loan. Will I still move to 24/7 ?
In this instance your account will migrate to a similar non-fee paying account. If however, you have a chequebook or card attached to your account you will move to 24/7.

http://www.nationalirishbank.ie/en-ie/About-National-Irish-Bank/Customer-information/2012/Pages/accounts-migration.aspx#

cdev

earlyapex wrote: »

They rang me back this afternoon and he was saying now that because its a tracker mortgage serviced from the current account, that it will move to a 24/7 account with charges.
I then challenged this stating that the current account was a condition of my original mortgage agreement and I can't be forced to take another service along with it, that paying for this enforced current account would be a breach of mortage conditions.

He said I had raised a good point and would send a note to the branch and confirm my mortage terms and get back to me either himself or someone from the branch will ring me.

What a mess!
Their staff aren't clear on the conditions with this, people are getting different answers.
Ring them and get it confirmed in writing like I am trying to do.

I wrote to my branch manager last week to point out that forcing me to maintain and pay fees on my mortgage servicing account was a breach of the Central Bank Consumer Protection code. He replied by informing me that I would have to pay the fees and to complain to NIB's "Customer Service Standards Advisor " if I had a problem with it. I think they're making it as difficult as possible for people in the hope that we'll pay the fees. I've reported this to the National Consumer Agency and they're looking into it.

earlyapex

The financial ombudsman might have to get into this.

seanmacc

I just thought I'll throw my recent experience with NIB to show why I think they are winding up their operations here.

I've been banking with NIB since I was a teenager, you would be talking about 14 years and currently have one of their old Cashmaster accounts (free banking). I have a modest enough income going in, between myself and my wife approximately 34k per annum. We don't have a mortgage and essentially live rent free. The bank calculated that we have about 1200 euro disposable income per month. My wife had returned to full time education this year and had to pay the dreaded EU fees amounting to 6.5 k. 4k of this I payed out of savings. Rather than deplete our savings to a level I deem too low (6 months of income) I wanted to finance the last 2.5K of her fees. I duly went to my branch after making an appointment on the 20th March with the view of getting a personal loan for it. The rate for the loan was about 11% variable or 12.6% fixed. I made the point that this wasn't much lower than my credit card rate. My credit card limit stands at 2K. At that point I was told that my account would be moved changed and that all free banking will cease. I was given the three options of 24/7, Easy Plus and Prestige. I was steered in the direction of the Prestige because my wife and I do a lot of travelling and the Prestiege included a Mastercard Platinum (Free travel insurance, airport lounge access). The Platinum Mastercard had a rate of 9%. I thought to myself, Happy days. What we pay for travel insurance alone will pay the monthly charges. We had previously applied for an increase in our credit card limit up to 4K earlier in the year but the application was lost and I never pursued it. This I thought would be a final solution and thus applied for it.
Weeks went by and I heard nothing from the bank during this time the college sent us a letter demanding their final fees payment. When ringing the bank they told us that the application was still with their credit department but should be processed soon. On the afternoon of Holy Thursday we received a letter from our branch signed by the teller who put in our application for the new account saying:
"RE your applcation to have the Limit of your Mastercard increased.We regret to advise you that you have insufficient income to justify an increase of a credit limit on your account"
One sentence. When contacting the branch the following Tuesday I was told that they can't see why I needed an increase in my limit and that I should draw the money from savings. I wrote to them asking why this obvious lack of income for their Platinum card wasn't an issue when I applied and am yet to get an answer. The only way forward is to apply for a personal loan. You could imagine how peeved I was of this because of the years of banking with them and having a flawless record of credit and with savings far greater than I was seeking a credit limit of or finance for. I have since applied for the personal loan on 10th April and am still awaiting a decision from their credit department. If I get approval for this finance I will be moving my account from them. How fast they move in their credit department shows me how much I need to maintain savings as should an emergency happen where I will need to raise a substantial amount of cash they cannot be relied on.
I have written to them twice, once to my branch and to their customer services and have yet to get a response.

They must be winding down operations here as they are not offering even basic banking services.

earlyapex

I see NIB have changed their website section on the new current accounts. And the FAQ that said there would be no charge for service type accounts is gone!

So changes are happening behind closed doors and I haven't got that reply phone call I've been waiting for yet about their planned breach of contract.

Keep calling them, don't just roll over for them.

cdev

earlyapex wrote: »

I see NIB have changed their website section on the new current accounts. And the FAQ that said there would be no charge for service type accounts is gone!

So changes are happening behind closed doors and I haven't got that reply phone call I've been waiting for yet about their planned breach of contract.

Keep calling them, don't just roll over for them.

Over the last 2 days I've heard back from both the Financial Regulator and the National Consumer Agency. They both confirmed that charging for these accounts (that were created as part of the mortgage agreement) is a breach of the Consumer Protection Code. I've been advised to follow the NIB complaints procedure and take it to the Financial Ombudsman if needs be. So that's what I'll do..... I'm not wasting any more time talking to bank officials who don't seem to know how to solve this problem.

earlyapex

Today I got a call from them , not the branch like it was supposed to be and it was like starting all over again.

They went on about the charges and as soon as I mentioned them being in breach of the Code of consumer protection, she ended the converssation immediately telling me she would have my branch get in touch with me with the details of my mortgage as she did not have them!

Then why was she ringing me!

Anyway, I have in my terms and conditions I only have to keep the Easy account open to service the mortgage by standing order from another institution. Thats it.
Introducing a new charge is a breach of the mortage agreement by them.

I will follow suit and go the official complaints route.

Thoie

earlyapex wrote: »

Today I got a call from them , not the branch like it was supposed to be and it was like starting all over again.

They went on about the charges and as soon as I mentioned them being in breach of the Code of consumer protection, she ended the converssation immediately telling me she would have my branch get in touch with me with the details of my mortgage as she did not have them!

Then why was she ringing me!

Anyway, I have in my terms and conditions I only have to keep the Easy account open to service the mortgage by standing order from another institution. Thats it.
Introducing a new charge is a breach of the mortage agreement by them.

I will follow suit and go the official complaints route.

Thanks earlyapex, I'm in a similar situation, but haven't started the phone calls yet. By the sounds of it I think I'll skip the phone calls and move straight to writing to them.

earlyapex

Yeah, mention section 3.17 and 3.18 of the Central Bank's consumer protection code (another poster already mentioned this) which state:

3.17 A regulated entity must not make the sale of a product or service contingent on the consumer purchasing another product or service from the regulated entity. This provision does not prevent a regulated entity from offering additional products or services to consumers who are existing customers which are not available to potential consumers.

3.18 Where a credit institution requires a consumer to open a feeder account in order to avail of another product, this shall not be prevented by Provision 3.17 where all of the following conditions are met:

a) the consumer must not be obliged to use the feeder account for purposes other than facilitating payments to the product concerned;

b) charges cannot be applied for using the feeder account for the purpose for which it was established;

c) where additional facilities are available on the feeder account they must be optional and only activated if requested by the consumer; and

d) these conditions must be communicated clearly to the consumer.


3.18 (a) and (b) being most relevant.

The Central bank sent this excerpt to me today after I emailed them my situation, pointing out I am right and should pursue the official complaint procedure all the way to the financial ombudsman exactly like poster cdev above. They have also started their own investigation into the matter.

Thoie

Here's the official complaints procedure if anyone else is looking for it:

http://www.nationalirishbank.ie/en-ie/About-National-Irish-Bank/Contact-us/Complaints/Pages/Complaint-procedure.aspx

Step 1

• If possible, please refer your complaint to the original point of contact.
• If the matter is not resolved to your satisfaction by this member of staff please speak or write to your Branch/Relationship Manager.

Step 2

• If you are still dissatisfied with the response from your Branch/Relationship Manager you may refer your complaint to our Customer Service Standards Advisor at the following address:

Customer Service Standards
National Irish Bank
National House, 1 Airton Close
Tallaght, Dublin 24

Step 3

• ...in the unlikely event of the matter not being resolved to your satisfaction, you may apply to the Financial Services Ombudsman Bureau for arbitration. Consumers may also apply to the Director of Consumer Affairs.

Correspondence should be addressed to:

Financial Services Ombudsman Bureau
3rd Floor, Lincoln House
Lincoln Place
Dublin 2

Director of Consumer Affairs
National Consumer Agency
4 Harcourt Street
Dublin 2

earlyapex

The National Consumer Agency rang me this morning and they had been in contact with the financial regulator who agreed with them that NIB are wrong in what they are trying to do.
They also were in touch with someone on the complaints team in NIB who also agreed it was not right so they told me that it seems it's a communication problem and that I should make a complaint to NIB.
I was waiting for a call from my branch manager since Friday, no call yet. It seems I should just go ahead with the complaint.

cailin1

cdev wrote: »

Over the last 2 days I've heard back from both the Financial Regulator and the National Consumer Agency. They both confirmed that charging for these accounts (that were created as part of the mortgage agreement) is a breach of the Consumer Protection Code. I've been advised to follow the NIB complaints procedure and take it to the Financial Ombudsman if needs be. So that's what I'll do..... I'm not wasting any more time talking to bank officials who don't seem to know how to solve this problem.

Hi cdev
I'm just wondering how you got on as I am in the same situation as you. Many thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

cdev

cailin1 wrote: »

Hi cdev
I'm just wondering how you got on as I am in the same situation as you. Many thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Hi there cailin1,

I was all set to write to the NIB Customer Service Standards Dept. when I received a letter from my branch thanking me for bringing their potential breach of the Consumer Protection Code to their attention. They promised to fully investigate the matter and revert to me within 20 days (I'm due to hear back from them over the next few days).

Apparently this contact from the branch was initiated after I contacted their 247enquiries@nationalirishbank.ie mailbox some weeks ago. I do find this somewhat strange as I had informed my bank manager of this problem weeks earlier and he basically rubbished my concerns. I have a feeling that the volume of complaints and worries about being reported to the Financial Ombudsman have prompted their new found concern about this issue.

I'll let you know the results of their "investigation" into this matter when I hear back from them.

Thoie

cdev wrote: »

Apparently this contact from the branch was initiated after I contacted their 247enquiries@nationalirishbank.ie mailbox some weeks ago.

Interesting - I mailed the letter to the bank yesterday, and decided to email it to that address last night as well. Got a read receipt back from A.Name@northernbank.co.uk

Shared services indeed!

homer911

Well I finally got a letter - I'd love to know how they think they are rewarding me for my loyalty - 2 current accounts, 1 savings account, 1 investment account, 1 mortgage and 1 car loan now being "rewarded" by the imposition of bank charges!

I hope Rob Hurley was highly embarrased putting his name to that letter!

ocy

We are in the same situation, we were hoping that we could just move bank and use a non feepaying account to service our LTV mortage. The FAQ paged now has

I only use my account to pay my mortgage/personal loan. Will I still move to 24/7 ?
In this instance your account will migrate to a similar non-fee paying account. If however, you have a chequebook or card attached to your account you will move to 24/7. Alternatively you may close your account and service your loan by a direct debit from another account.
(NB. If your homeloan is currently on an LTV mortgage rate, as part of your terms and conditions you will be required to migrate to 24/7 or one of our other account packages).

Our branch (Baggot St) are not being very helpful.
Should I now fill out this http://www.nationalirishbank.ie/en-ie/About-National-Irish-Bank/Contact-us/Complaints/Pages/Feedback-complaints-and-compliments.aspx
or do I contact
Financial Regulator
National Consumer Agency
Central Bank

Thanks
ocy

earlyapex

Write or call the National Consumer Agency and the central bank.
They need to know breaches of the consumer protection code.

I have since on their advice sent an official complaint email to nib and to the department in the central bank (who is NIB's financial regulator) that deals with holding up the consumer protection code, which is legally binding on all financial institutions.

They have 5 days to respond to me or they are in breach of another set of rules as laid out by the financial regulator. The official complaints process.
Today is day 3 of 5, I've heard nothing yet.
tick, tock....

They are hoping people just accept and pay even though they are wrong.

Don't let them.

homer911

A bit more information for anyone with an Investment Account with NIB - If you close your current account, you can choose to convert the current account into a service account for the Investment Account, in the same way that a Mortgage account requires a service account. They wont permit internet banking on this account though, but I presume if you purchase further investments, you can pay for them from the service account, or a savings account.

To transfer investments to another investment manager, there is a €10 charge per stock, or GBP60 if you want a paper certificate

ocy

Anyone have further info from NIB. Last I heard from them was that they were exploring an option for people who only wished to service their mortgage.That was 2 weeks ago, was told I'd get a letter soon.