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New Plans for Childrens Hospital on Coombe site
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let's put this access by car non-issue to rest... Let's look at the measurements Google Maps gives, even for areas outside the M50...
N = Newslands Cross
M = Mater
Dundrum (SC)
N = 16mins
M = 20mins
Milltown
N = 18mins
M = 16mins
Rathfarnham
N = 12mins
M = 15mins
Terenure
N = 11mins
M = 12mins
Bray
N = 18mins
M = 30mins
Just looking at a few of the 'local' Google times and they are...how can I put it politely.....utterly daft :rolleyes:
The M50 times apply near enough 24/7...for the Mater they'd only apply before 7.24 (am)!
I know he's wrong; my point was that this issue is irrelevant - whether he was right or wrong.He's actually wrong. It's less that the figure he provided. But the GDA accounts for nearly 40% of the population and inside the M50 accounts for 47% of that -- so it's more like around 860,000 people within the M50.
Nope; my reaction showed that I regard the issue as irrelevant."That would only be important if the hospital side was all the way round the M50, not at just one point. "
He erred there too.
But your reaction shows you don't care.
By car? Absolutely not. You really should try starting near the M50 anywhere from Lucan to Bray and commuting to the Mater site daily; compared to driving to the Red Cow/Newlands.And the city centre is by far still the overall most accessible area today in 2012.
It is, frankly, bizarre to think there is any comparison. I make Newlands from here (Sandyford) in 15 mins most days, at the morning peak. It takes at least 50 minutes to O'Connell St on an average morning - and then the parking :rolleyes:
Jaysus! Red Cow/Newlands is not in the 'middle of nowhere' by any definition. Given the dominance and practicality of car as the main mode of transport a location on the national road transport node is as obvious as a location in a crowded city centre (which has no direct rail connection or parking possibilities) is daft.Yes, it'd be crazy building the hospital in the middle of nowhere, away from population centres, away from prime public transport sites, away from any intercity rail option, and so close to a motorway as to be affected by noise and air pollution.
Frankly building it somewhere along the Naas Road or any of the main national routes outside the M50 would be a vastly better bet than the top of O'Connel St!
The notion that noise/pollution at the site would be worse than the city centre is pure 24 carat bull.
In goes the kitchen sink....:rolleyes:You don't seem to know much about gandland crime and west Dublin.
Ever take a stroll around Parnell Square at night? Don't. I'm confident there are Garda stats showing the city centre to be more crime ridden than the area around Newlands - so confident that I'm nor arsed to look it up as it's, literally, a stupid point.
Also - gangland killers are notorious for shooting hospital visitors? And they'd never peddle drugs in the inner city?
Another huge plus for a greenfield site! Facilities can be provided adjacent to, or in, the complex. Those looking for a bit of R'n'R can visit Tallaght down the road - it has every facility you'll get in the north inner city - without the pollution and street crime; with fresh air and with a fine view of the mountains.Where do you suggest parent's go for a break from the hospital or to get a few things not available on site etc?
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Just looking at a few of the 'local' Google times and they are...how can I put it politely.....utterly daft :rolleyes:
The M50 times apply near enough 24/7...for the Mater they'd only apply before 7.24 (am)!
Slight correction; on Mon - Friday mornings 7.24am would be much too late to make the stated times to the Mater.
Might even do a real-life test tomorrow morning and report back! (I'm free this week 0 -
Do you care just about driving around? What about sick children and babies, do you care about them? If so, why can't you address co- / tri-location??? It's clear why you can't: It does not suit your agenda.
You also don't seem to care about the toll for everywhere north of the Westlink bridge, but why would you? Then, they are just northsiders, both county and city! You also don't care about the large numbers of people who don't have access to car, but you only seem to care about driving, not people.
The proof you don't care about people? You want to put the hospital at edge of 860,000 rather to the core of that population. You think that population mass in such a small area is "irrelevant".
Then you go on about morning morning peak travel times and morning commuting as if many hospital appointments or visites happen at that time. You're stuck in a bubble.
And one min you say you're not suggesting Tallaght, then the next you seemed to be including Tallaght -- as you're sending parents there for R&R. And in the same breath you try to make it out to be some low crime area! The reality here is Tallaght is around the same as the Mater on crime and is a "traffic nightmare" (something you get most urban areas)! To try to cover your back, you're also proving things on site -- but at what extra cost?
LOL on trying to attack the Mater over Newlands on rail access! A 10min taxi to the two main national train stations, with Dart and/or commuter services, and 10min walk to a local station, vs miles away from anything at Newlands!
As for ",,,vastly better bet than the top of O'Connel St!" and parking issues you claim are problems.... [a] nobody is suggesting "at the top of O'Connell St" and [b.] the Rotunda seems to mannage "at the top of O'Connell St" and Mater and Temple Street manage, but let's not let facts get in the way of you wanting to drive on the M50.
To top it off and show you don't know what you're talking about, you think there is no view of mountains from the current Mater, never mind a talker building!0 -
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Do you care just about driving around? What about sick children and babies, do you care about them? If so, why can't you address co- / tri-location??? It's clear why you can't: It does not suit your agenda.
I don't have "an agenda". I have opinions based on facts rather than slogans and myths.
No - I want it at the "core" of accessibility for the National population; not for a small minority in the inner city.The proof you don't care about people? You want to put the hospital at edge of 860,000 rather to the core of that population.
The point I made was those times are daft outside about midnight to 6am.Then you go on about morning morning peak travel times and morning commuting as if many hospital appointments or visits happen at that time.
It's a gift -I can walk and chew gum at the same time! Newlands/Tallaght..close by.And one min you say you're not suggesting Tallaght, then the next you seemed to be including Tallaght -- as you're sending parents there for R&R.
Wow! That's a bit of a crawl-down from someone who was banging on about the gangland crime at Newlands compared to the safety of the north inner city. Your surrender on this point is acceptedAnd in the same breath you try to make it out to be some low crime area! The reality here is Tallaght is around the same as the Mater on crime and is a "traffic nightmare" (something you get most urban areas)! (One down, several more to go )
A taxi! And you were complaining about tolls on the M50! I've got some breaking news: they have taxis in Tallaght, Newlands, Red Cow - loads of them. And they travel on much less cluttered and congested roads. :rolleyes:LOL on trying to attack the Mater over Newlands on rail access! A 10min taxi to the two main national train stations
Eh...wrong again! Red Cow is right beside the proposed campus. Unlike the "waiting for Metro North" fantasy of the Mater site!vs miles away from anything at Newlands!
You can't even get the trivia right :rolleyes:To top it off and show you don't know what you're talking about, you think there is no view of mountains from the current Mater, never mind a talker building!
It was the folk taking a break in sunny downtown Tallaght that I said would have fresh air and mountain views; unlike the folk slinking around the north inner city looking for some supplies.
If you don't/can't read what I write why do you bother replying?
btw; I'll address the "trilocation" issue when we've finished eliminating the daft notions about the Mater's relative accessibility. I've seen you're not up to dealing with multiple issues simultaneously. Best we take this one step at a time. 0 -
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »This proves to me that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Ah yes! From the man who posted all those fantasy stats in his earlier post :rolleyes:
Indeed I have - ugly place.Have you ever been to Parnell Square?
If you are referring to the relative crime stats for Newlands v North Inner City - I doubt it! (And we've established that yerself and reliable stats don't mix wellYour confidence is misplaced.) 0 -
I've seen you're not up to dealing with multiple issues simultaneously. Best we take this one step at a time.
If that is really your problem then put everything else aside and deal with co- or tri-location -- which is the most important issue.I don't have "an agenda". I have opinions based on facts rather than slogans and myths.
You clearly do have an agenda, that's why you won't talk about the co- or tri-location.No - I want it at the "core" of accessibility for the National population; not for a small minority in the inner city.
Sure, that would make sense if such a high percentage of the population (20% of the population) were not living in just 0.34% of the area of the state.
But when you got so many people so close together you put the hospital close to them. Access isn't the issue you and others are making it out to be -- the Rotunda, the current Mater and Temple Street prove this!The point I made was those times are daft outside about midnight to 6am.
No, you talked nonsense about commuting and morning peak travel times.
The Google Map times may not apply at rush hour, but they do take into account of average traffic patterns and the roads. That's why the time from the South Docklands is slowing than from Ringsend (which is further from the Mater)!Wow! That's a bit of a crawl-down from someone who was banging on about the gangland crime at Newlands compared to the safety of the north inner city. Your surrender on this point is accepted (One down, several more to go )
You seem to have problem with the crime levels in around the Mater, but not those near Newlands. :rolleyes:A taxi! And you were complaining about tolls on the M50! I've got some breaking news: they have taxis in Tallaght, Newlands, Red Cow - loads of them. And they travel on much less cluttered and congested roads. :rolleyes:
Right, but the point was about a taxi from the two intercity railway stations near the Mater.
And if we're talking about taxi access from the other parts of Dublin -- the city also wins.Eh...wrong again! Red Cow is right beside the proposed campus. Unlike the "waiting for Metro North" fantasy of the Mater site!
Sorry, when I say rail I mean heavy rail. Which serves more than the red line (ie intercity rail). Drumcondra Station is about 10mins walk away from the Mater (it most likely will be upgraded to Dart in the lifetime of the hospital) and the nearest Luas BXD stop will be be about an 11mins walk away
At the Newlands site the Red Cow Luas stop is at least 10-12mins away.There are some very strong arguments in favour of a site west and south of Heuston Station. Agreed.
I agree there is favourable arguments for such a site, but...
That site or the Mater would make little difference overall to access by car. That would mean extra travel time and/or a toll for those coming from north of the Westlink. You seem very focused on having the best possible access for the southside of Dublin.0 -
As most of your other stuff in your post is mere tedious repetition of already repudiated points I'll not bother with them.
Yet again, clearly you are clueless when it comes to the traffic access issues.I agree there is favourable arguments for such a site [Heuston area], but..
That site or the Mater would make little difference overall to access by car. That would mean extra travel time and/or a toll for those coming from north of the Westlink. You seem very focused on having the best possible access for the southside of Dublin.
Heuston is beside light and heavy rail and is far more accessible to the national road network than the top of O'Connell St.
Claims about "agendas" and "Southside" are mere blather.
The old Phoenix Park racecourse (Northside, look it up on Google maps :rolleyes:) would be a much more accessible site than the Mater; it has rail connection and is accessible to the M50.
(And the N4 location has the added bonus from your perspective that folk coming from the Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and South Dublin would have to pay the M50 toll)
It's parochial gibberish to regard a site 200m south of the Liffey as an issue because it's "southside". That sort of irrationality leads to the confused mish-mash of internally contradictory mush that passes for "debate" by some Mater advocates.
I bet ye speak fluent Bertie too! 0 -
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The only plot I can think of is next to the MoMA on the N4It is certainly better then Newlands X, but it isn't as accessible as the Mater via public transport for people living in Dublin. It would involve one change for many onto the Luas from O'Connell St. However I readily admit that isn't such a big deal.
However what about co-location with an adults hospital. And does the government actually own that land?
Actually I'm not sure what land you are talking about, can't find it on google maps? 0 -
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As most of your other stuff in your post is mere tedious repetition of already repudiated points I'll not bother with them.
Tedious? Like why you can't put everything else aside and deal with co- or tri-location -- which is the most important issue.Claims about "agendas" and "Southside" are mere blather.
The old Phoenix Park racecourse (Northside, look it up on Google maps :rolleyes:) would be a much more accessible site than the Mater; it has rail connection and is accessible to the M50.
(And the N4 location has the added bonus from your perspective that folk coming from the Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and South Dublin would have to pay the M50 toll)
But you're supporting that site, you're supporting another, one at Newlands Cross. Wildcard locations are pure blather! Or is this game, everything but the Mater?grumpymunster wrote: »So it is fairly obvious then that cost will not be addressed because it does not fit in with Dublin City centre is also the centre of the Universe argument.
Ok, if you truly want to talk about cost:
What cost do we put on the loss or harm to children or babies because of no co- or tri-location on a greenfield site?It's parochial gibberish to regard a site 200m south of the Liffey as an issue because it's "southside". That sort of irrationality leads to the confused mish-mash of internally contradictory mush that passes for "debate" by some Mater advocates.
The diffrence between the Matter and a site at Heuston is one is a bit better for those north or south of the Westlink.Claims about "agendas" and "Southside" are mere blather.
The old Phoenix Park racecourse (Northside, look it up on Google maps :rolleyes:) would be a much more accessible site than the Mater; it has rail connection and is accessible to the M50.
(And the N4 location has the added bonus from your perspective that folk coming from the Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and South Dublin would have to pay the M50 toll)
But you're not supporting that site, you're supporting another, one at Newlands Cross. Wildcard locations are what are pure blather!grumpymunster wrote: »So it is fairly obvious then that cost will not be addressed because it does not fit in with Dublin City centre is also the centre of the Universe argument.
Ok, if you truly want to talk about cost:
What cost do we put on the loss or harm to children or babies because of no co- or tri-location on a greenfield site?It's parochial gibberish to regard a site 200m south of the Liffey as an issue because it's "southside". That sort of irrationality leads to the confused mish-mash of internally contradictory mush that passes for "debate" by some Mater advocates.
For those driving, diffrence between the Matter and at Heuston is clear: The Mater site is better for everybody north of the Westlink, while the Heuston site is better for everybody south of the Westlink.
There's very little difference overall between the two on access. It just shows access by car to the Mater site is really a hyped up non-issue.antoinolachtnai wrote: »From the outer parts of Dublin, it is pretty tough to access by public transport, certainly involving a change.
The Mater site? It's one of the prime areas in the city which has the most direct connections.- The 46a serves Dun Laoghaire, nearly all of the N11, and most of the NCR
- The 120 serves Ashtown and Cabra
- The 41s serve Swords, Rolestown, etc, the airport, Santry
- The 38s serve Damastown and north of the N3 in D15
- The 40s serve Finglas, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley Shopping Centre, everywhere in-between, the odd ones also serve Toberburr and Tyrrelstown
- The 11 serves from Wadelai to Sandyford Industrial Estate
- The 222 serves Ashington, the Navan Road and to Drimnagh
The Maynooth line directly serves Maynooth, Leixip, Clonsilla, Blanch, Carpenerstown, Castleknock, and Ashtown. With just one covered rail connection you also have: Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush, Lusk, Donabate, Malahide, Portmarnock, Howth, the North Fringe, Kilbarrack,
Raheny, Blackrock, Dalkey, Killiney, Shankill, Bray, Greystones, and places closer to the city like Fairview, Killester and Sandymount etc.
If BXD goes ahead it will directly serve the green line and the red line with one very frequent connection: The list of places is getting very long here... I'm guessing you get the point?
And that's all without the coach services -- public and private.antoinolachtnai wrote: »There is not going to be a lot of parking. The reality is that it is not currently a great area for walking around with children.
The Rotunda, the current Mater and Temple Street all manage fine parking wise.
I walk around the area with my 11 month old all the time, and you often see children in the area.antoinolachtnai wrote: »I have been robbed twice on visits to the mater for my own part. That has never happened to me on any other hospital campus.
That's very unfortunate, that it happened twice to you, but not at all a good way to set policy.antoinolachtnai wrote: »South of Heuston station is a very big site with very good public transport access from both the city and suburbs, and from the rest of the country via the N4 which it has frontage to.
Agreed. But the difference access wise -- for both public transport and by car -- between the Mater and around Heuston is marginal at best.0 -
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Because they are an organisation that exists solely to oppose the Mater site, and hence will talk down anything they possibly can.
Indeed, from the very top of the About Us page on their own site:New Children’s Hospital Alliance Goal: As a nation, to provide the highest quality of care for our children as measured by patient outcome and patient experience. The New Children’s Hospital Alliance does not believe it will be possible to achieve and maintain such standards in the tertiary level care of our children by building the proposed National Paediatric Hospital at the Mater site in the centre of Dublin.
We are campaigning to have this decision reversed.
Innocent bystanders they are not 0 -
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