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New Plans for Childrens Hospital on Coombe site
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sydthebeat wrote: »laughable... you link to an online newspaper as your source???
You'll find most of the stats we're talking about on the CSO's website is at http://www.cso.ie/en/census/
If you bothered to read the website I linked to, the very first paragraph says:"The National Transport Authority (NTA) launched its draft strategy for the Greater Dublin Area recently. The NTA stressed at the time that it was not just a list of projects, as shown below it’s also based on fairly substantial data. Here, we reproduce some of the interesting graphed data from the strategy."
All the graphs are directly from the NTA's draft strategy for the Greater Dublin Area -- and all of the data the graphs are derived from the CSO's census or the NTA's extensive work.sydthebeat wrote: »which assess the "greater dublin area" as including kildare, meath and wicklow... well, heres some news for you... ask the families living in these areas where they would like to see the new hospital built... inner city dublin is NOT going to be high on their list of choices.
PS the 'greater dublin area' actually has no statutory or governmental definition, so perhaps youd like to carlow, laois, offaly, westmeath and louth in that as well??? go on.. for the craic...
Great, you've become the spokesperson for the people of the Greater Dublin Area. Maybe they should get a new spokesperson, maybe somebody who knows what they are talking about?
And, again, if you are unsure of anything, please do ask rather than poorly trying to make me out to be a fool and also showing your self up at the same time. Among other acts and SIs, the Greater Dublin Area is currently defined in Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 and referenced in Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010.sydthebeat wrote: »dont put forward figures claiming to be one thing when they are another completely.....
Don't get so aggressive for no reason, make false claims and take about what you don't know about!
sydthebeat wrote: »as for bi-location or tri-location....
we only do this kind of build once in every 50-60 years so lets do it right....
for the money it would cost due to traffic issues, work time restrictions, elongated construction schedules, augmenting existing services etc a more suitable hospital can be constructed for the money we are being asked to pay.
Getting it right is about focusing on the most important things the heath of children, central to such is bi- or tri-location. You have not addressed the issue of bi- or tri-location and it's importance to the quality of service for children and babies.
If you're trying to suggest that building the children's hospital on a greenfield site would save enough for the cost of moving maternity and adult services to such a site, pull the other leg.sydthebeat wrote: »no matter what way you argue.... and even if the bord didnt specifically refer to the access issues.... it is crystal clear that the selection of the mater site was motivated by those in high political office at the time, which little regard to the suitability of the site.
As irishguy asked above: Can you name the best children's hospitals in the world and their locations?0 -
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These are crowded city streets, national routes in name only.
If you are talking access by car (which suits perhaps 80% of the population best) then an M50 location is the only rational solution.
For those dependent on public transport the Luas Red line plus bus routes are already in place.
If you can't figure out how to get from Blanch to Red Cow by PT then phone a friend
(or even look at a map and some Luas/bus timetables)
Bill do you travel around Dublin often? It's not exactly a congested nightmare that people would like to think it is.
If you are traveling by car, anywhere is suitable. The vast majority of patients and their families will be using car transport as often the illness of a child doesn't fit in with public transport schedules.
So the transport/parking issue is really a red herring. Sure there are sites better than the Mater for all transit/parking but not that much better to make any difference in the big scheme of things.0 -
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grumpymunster wrote: »I remember once heading into Dublin city centre, I was going down the N4 then by Hueston onto the Quays to meet my daughter in town. Had to give up at Heuston as it had taken me 50 minutes from the roundabout at Kilmainham to the station, and the Quays were as bad or even worse. I think there was a concert in Croke Park that evening and the place was manic. And this was a Staurday afternoon, not a weekday evening.
Now I accept this may well be the exception rather than the rule, but if you are stuck in that type of traffic with a sick child then it does not matter if it is the exception you simply will not get this in the outer parts of the city.
Meeting your daughter in town is one thing, but in a rush to the hospital with a child? You get into the bus lane and bypass the traffic.
Any garda who tries to ticket you rather than give you an escort is a loon and will not be supported by his bosses never mind the courts!listermint wrote: »The thread seems very skewed by city dwellers and cyclists without any major through put from people outside the city of Dublin.
Classic! When you can't attack the message, you attach the messenger! You might want to brush up on the rules of boards.ie.listermint wrote: »Tallaght was always a logical choice that ticked all the significant boxes. The push to centralise to the mater was a political one by various government members more impressed at looking at themselves in the mirror and political one-up-manship than what was good for the children. That much is clear.
What's most important for children and babies is tri-location.
Have you read any of this thread?
grumpymunster wrote: »It is a while since I have been there but is there not a lot of empty space beside Tallaght hospital. I have read through this thread and I have not seen a convincing argument for not building it there. Excellent bus service from memory, the Red LUAS, very close to the M50, ample places to eat and many reasonably priced hotels nearby.
Lack of proper co-location? Lack of tri-location? Lack of space? Poorer access for those who don't have cars? Poorer access for staff?
And you claim to have read the thread?grumpymunster wrote: »With all the drivel regarding population statistics (lies, damn lies and statistics dont forget)
Show one thing wrong with any of the statistics -- factual, context etc.
Otherwise, you're grasping at straws.grumpymunster wrote: »cost seems to have been ignored. Building in the city centre adds greatly to the cost as they are going down for car parking and up for the hospital I believe. In a site just as Tallaght the price is significantly lower and in case you guys have forgotten the country is skint.
You're looking at the cost of everything, but the value of nothing.grumpymunster wrote: »Best is the enemy of good.
Compromising on tri-location is the enemy of the health of children and babies.0 -
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Meeting your daughter in town is one thing, but in a rush to the hospital with a child? You get into the bus lane and bypass the traffic.
Any garda who tries to ticket you rather than give you an escort is a loon and will not be supported by his bosses never mind the courts!
Classic! When you can't attack the message, you attach the messenger! You might want to brush up on the rules of boards.ie.
What's most important for children and babies is tri-location.
Have you read any of this thread?
Lack of proper co-location? Lack of tri-location? Lack of space? Poorer access for those who don't have cars? Poorer access for staff?
And you claim to have read the thread?
Show one thing wrong with any of the statistics -- factual, context etc.
Otherwise, you're grasping at straws.
You're looking at the cost of everything, but the value of nothing.
Compromising on tri-location is the enemy of the health of children and babies.
So lets see lots of bus services serving the Square in Tallaght and also the red LUAS line running right by does not provide access for those without cars. It is very difficult to square that circle.
Yes if the hospital were in the city centre I would use bus lanes or what ever it took to get there if I had a sick child in the car. And I fully agree any Garda that would issue a ticket in such an event would be as you say a "loon". But if a child were in for a long stay and you are driving in and out visiting then you would get no such consideration I would guess.
It may not suite your argument but cost is a very real consideration at the moment, you are obviously very passionate that the hospital should be built in the city centre. Thats fair enough but there are also good arguments for it to be built outside of the city centre.
Cost and access are two very real reasons for this. Making a bland statement regarding knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing makes no sense in this instance. Are you really saying that opening lets say a state of the art childrens hospital in Tallaght in two years or so would be of no value? And would not be a huge step forward on what we have at the moment?
Yes I did read the entire thread and there are arguments for and against. I am not and have not claimed to be any sort of expert in this area. But I am capable of independent thought and decision making, perhaps the people I have heard on the radio and articles I have read in newspapers have made a better argument, in general, in favour of a non city centre site.
The really sad thing here is the project is now totally in limbo and we are no closer to getting what is needed.0 -
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »it cannot be ignored that the sites put forward as an alternative (namely greenfield) are being pushed by various groups, including those who own the land or stand to profit greatly by the choice of a greenfield site as well as pro-suburbanisation groups.
We're only going around the same block again with your access claims - I reject all the points made.
But I'm fascinated by the "pro-suburbanisation groups". Who are they? Where can I sign up? 0 -
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Can I ask if you've ever been on the M50 or ever gone to the Red Cow from Dublin? Anyone who doesn't recognise this is a traffic quagmire is either full of hot air or has never been there. Traffic is far worse than Dorset Street or any other street in the country that I can think of.We're only going around the same block again with your access claims - I reject all the points made.
But I'm fascinated by the "pro-suburbanisation groups". Who are they? Where can I sign up?
If access is the issue then one must recognise that the 2km stretch of road you describe (of which maybe 0.5km is available for development - which narrows you down to one site owned by a developer) has as many if not more "access" issues than the Mater. How can you reject that? Do you have a positive rejection? Does it take less time to get from Sligo to the Red Cow than from Sligo to the Mater? I say with absolute conviction that you'd be hard pressed to find 10 minutes in the difference.
If access isn't the issue then what benefit do we have of putting this hospital outside the M50?
There are many groups of individuals in this country, whether united under a banner or not, that actively support and campaign for suburbanisation. They may not put that label on it, but "abandoning" the city in favour of the suburbs is not a difficult agenda to spot.0 -
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »Apart from the fact that the M50 is frequently referred to as Europe's biggest parking lot
History since the upgrade.The upgrade has solved some of the massive tailbacks that used to happen, but it is still a mess often.
It is not often still a mess. It flows freely nearly all the time, bar accidents in the wrong place. It handles 100,000 cars per day in each direction, flowing freely at 100kph - how many could the north inner city handle?There are plenty of groups that pose pro-suburbanisation agendas on a regular basis.
Still waiting for you to name these groups :cool:Urbanisation is not a negative thing if done correctly
Never said it was; but the idea that it is superior to suburbia is a fanatic's creed.If you want to live in various clachan scattered around the country that's fine
No I don't, but I'd certainly prefer to live in any of the better suburbs than in the City centre. Much better lifestyle. But that's just my opinion - if you are one of the minority who'd prefer to live in the centre feel free. Just don't try to impose your fetishes on methe fact of the matter is that Dublin is a city
Never knew that :rolleyes:and we should be focusing on building in the M50 rather than outside of it.
You think so? I don't actually; especially when we have numbskulls who consider buildings of 15 stories "excessive". But it's a free country - if you want to live in some decaying unsaleable hovel on Gardiner St be my guest.It makes no sense to put a hospital on the outskirts of a suburb.
I'm suggesting we put it at a major transport node; not in a clogged unsuitable inner city location where they still haven't realised that building technology has moved on since the 1790s.0 -
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That's why the obvious connection is to the R113. They will need to do something about the N7/M50 northbound at some stage - there are differing views on whether the freeflow N7 at Newlands will make the situation better or worse - I'd guess worse.
Still a better location for a national hospital than the city centre by a stellar margin.
(btw, it's not generally congested at "all times of the day" - I know, I pass through it maybe 10 times per week at various different times
another btw; I chuckle at how often on these threads I'm asked "have you ever been on the M50" by folk who clearly haven't been themselves - seeing as I virtually live on it. I don't refer to yerself MYOB 'cos I know you know nearly as much about everything as I do.......0 -
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LOL... You want to swap one heavy traffic area for another heavy traffic area, which does not meet the co- or tri- location requirement, is less accessible, and further away from any population centre?
Then you have the cheek to take about things like petty crime and air pollution, around the Mater, and then turn around with a straight face about building beside two of the busiest sections of roads in the country which have massive air and noise pollution problems, and you forget about the higher rate of crime -- including murder -- of the adjoining areas to Newlands Cross.Still a better location for a national hospital than the city centre by a stellar margin.
...you're only saying so, but what else you're saying isn't helping your case...Still(btw, it's not generally congested at "all times of the day" - I know, I pass through it maybe 10 times per week at various different times
I can say the same thing about the Mater site!
The diffrence with the Mater site is that it fills the co-location requirement today and is close to tri-location and will fill the tri-location requirement in the future. And that's before we take about the better access at the Mater site.0
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