Trappatoni Win% Record

Will I Amnt

cournioni wrote: »

Some might argue that not losing only matters going into a major tournament. If you don't lose once you're out of the group stage, you have a very good chance winning (as long as you win your penalty shootouts)

If we don't win a game in that group it's more than likely curtains.
Can't see another Italia 90 group in this one.

cournioni

If we don't lose a game and we get one win, as per Traps record, we will get out of the group. Which in itself would be a major achievement with an average group of players. None of whom are playing CL football with their club.

Will I Amnt

cournioni wrote: »

If we don't lose a game and we get one win, as per Traps record, we will get out of the group. Which in itself d be a major achievement with an average group of players. None of whom are playing CL football with their club.

Wins against top sides are virtually non existent since he took over.
There's only top teams in the group.

Rekop dog

The thing that is going to annoy me most is that if we fail in this group (which let's face would be the most likely conclusion regardless of whose managing us) is that the already sizeable anti Trap bandwaggon will reach unbearable levels afterwards.

clubberlang12

cournioni wrote: »

If we don't lose a game and we get one win, as per Traps record, we will get out of the group. Which in itself would be a major achievement with an average group of players. None of whom are playing CL football with their club.

In reality, based on how other teams have played and performed against us, do you see us getting a win in that group? Do you see us not losing against teams that are superior to what we have played against? Spain are Spain, no need to describe them. The Italians are a much better team than when we played them 2 years ago. The Croatians are also a level above any team we played in the qualifiers. These 3 teams are in the top 10 in Fifa ranking. I'll try to be as optimistic as possible but in reality if we gift any of these teams as much time and space as we gifted to Russia and the Czech's i can't see anything bar losses. Thats not being Anti-Trap, that is being Pro-Reality. I'd say the same against any other team that had played the way we have.

And with regards to friendlies counting towards ranking points, that is true. But any points gathered at the Euro's are worth a minimum 3 times the points gathered in a friendly. Add in the fact that the WC qualifying group is drawn already and in truth, to experiment in a friendly or two before the Euro's would not have affected us greatly. More important is any result in the Euro's and results gathered in the first half of the WC qualifiers.

jordainius

jonnyfingers wrote: »

While Trap's win % may not be as high as others his loss % is only 19%

So 81% we pick up points. That is why we've qualified for a major tournament.

If we can just turn a few more of those draws into wins during the summer we'll be on cloud 9.

Actually you've undersold Trap there!

When it counts, in competetive games, his loss percentage is 8%.
Win % is 46% and draw % is 46%. (So poinst 92% of the time, not 81%:D)

Break it down a bit more. Total competetive record; P24, W11, D11, L2.
Competetive home record; P11 5 5 2
Competetive away record; P11 6 6 0

His home record, could be a bit better but his away record is excellent. How many Irish managers have an away record of 50% wins, 50% draws and 0% defeats??

I couldn't care less about the style of play, the only things that matter are the results.

It's ridiculous to criticise Trappatoni based on his win % record, especially while overlooking the fact that no other Irish manager has a better loss % record.

briany

cambo2008 wrote: »

If we don't win a game in that group it's more than likely curtains.
Can't see another Italia 90 group in this one.

Italia '90 had different rules though. It was 2 points for a win, one for a draw back then. As well as that, the four highest ranking 3rd place teams went through to the second round also so it was much more feasible that three draws could take you through then but not so now.

cambo2008 wrote: »

Wins against top sides are virtually non existent since he took over.
There's only top teams in the group.

I agree. The only top teams that Ireland have taken on in competitive action are Russia and Italy, and Ireland did show some courage in their displays against both, they certainly gave both a game to be fair even though they were on the ropes a lot of the time, particularly against Russia, but the stats do not lie - head to head against both teams, in competition, Ireland come in second best and if that's all we have to gauge the chances and the reasonable expectations of Ireland in the Summertime then I would say anything more than a single point would be a great showing given the style of play and the players that are going.

Will I Amnt

briany wrote: »

I agree. The only top teams that Ireland have taken on in competitive action are Russia and Italy, and Ireland did show some courage in their displays against both, they certainly gave both a game to be fair even though they were on the ropes a lot of the time, particularly against Russia, but the stats do not lie - head to head against both teams, in competition, Ireland come in second best and if that's all we have to gauge the chances and the reasonable expectations of Ireland in the Summertime then I would say anything more than a single point would be a great showing given the style of play and the players that are going.

In the last 2 years if you throw in the friendlies aswel the only top team we've beaten is Italy in a 2-0 win.
Brazil,Argentina,Norway,Uruguay and Russia all outplayed and beat us.
That's the standard we will be up against in this tournament.

plasmaguy

EdenHazard wrote: »

So an 'effective strategy' is giving away the ball away easily to Xavi, Modric and the likes, is that what your saying?

Also Ireland does punch above it's weight....kinda(Croatia has same population and look at them) but that would happen with our without Trapattoni. We tend to have a good player pool that really could be a lot worse considering the population we have. With Duff, keane, given, dunne entering their last years though, we could enter into a lull period with seemingly lack of replacements of their level of ability.

FFS.

We don't have the players to retain possession. Name me one Irish player who is currently a midfielder in a top 4 EPL team or on a Champions League team. Contrast that with Iniesta and Xavi who play for the best club team in the world, or Ramos, another example who plays for the second best.

Trap can do a lot of things, but he can't make a f*cking Xavi or Inniesta overnight, and certainly not in the few days he has with the players.

Anyways, I'm one of these people who don't care how we play as long as we are successful.

When we had the "technically skillful" players like Andy Reid and Stephen Ireland during the Stauntan era, the results were a joke.

It's not all Trap's fault, some of it is, but anyone who thinks he should be sacked or something like that because we don't play nice football, needs to wake up.

A lot of people also forget that some of the football played under Mourinho at Chelsea for example was also dire and awful to watch.

Morzadec

Win % is not really an important stat here. International football is about getting results against your nearest rivals in your group, and quite often that result can be a draw. It's not like the Premiership where you need to win a large percentage of games to be competitive at the top ends.

For example we could easily qualify from our Euro 2012 group with a 33.3% win percentage. In fact if I was offered this win percentage now I'd probably bite your hands off. We could win the whole tournament with a 0% win rate (results taken over 90 minutes). Or, to be realistic, a 50% win rate (Greece did in 2004 if results are taken in 90 minutes).

In tournaments not losing can be important as winning (if that makes any sense).

Really don't care what his win rate is and how it compares to other managers. Fact is we're in a major tournament for the first time in 10 years.

NinjaK

Its a joke some of the opinions on here, ye want Ireland to play like Barcelona or something. Trap is doing a great job!

bullvine

This is the worst bunch of irish players ever, not one of them plays for a big club, cop on to yourself bashing Trap, the man is a legend, the football stinks, so what. So sick of this rubbish, Kerr wouldn't have got us to the Euros

Will I Amnt

NinjaK wrote: »

Its a joke some of the opinions on here, ye want Ireland to play like Barcelona or something. Trap is doing a great job!

Nobody said that,there has to be room for compromise.
Realistically we need a win from one of the 3 games to qualify,I don't see us getting one with that system.
We just don't beat the bigger teams.

bullvine wrote: »

the football stinks, so what. So sick of this rubbish

This is where people differ,I watch football because I love the game.
I hate watching Ireland.They may aswel be playing tiddlywinks if all you care about is results.Sure watch it live on teletext if it's only results you're into.

gosplan

Samich wrote: »

Because you play to win, not play to not lose.

This is it in a nutshell.

If you think football is performance driven, then you'll hate Trap.

If you think it's results driven, then you'll love him.

briany

cambo2008 wrote: »

Nobody said that,there has to be room for compromise.
Realistically we need a win from one of the 3 games to qualify,I don't see us getting one with that system.
We just don't beat the bigger teams.



This is where people differ,I watch football because I love the game.
I hate watching Ireland.They may aswel be playing tiddlywinks if all you care about is results.Sure watch it live on teletext if it's only results you're into.

It's improbable that Ireland will be able to beat any of the teams they will face at Euro 2012 so I don't think we'll qualify from the group but the party would be mighty if they somehow did.

I'm willing to overlook Ireland's terrible football if they can somehow grind out a result because the elation of the team scoring a goal against anyone in that group that might end up counting to a favorable result would, to me, negate any amount of hoofball they play. I'm fully aware that I would probably switch off if I were a neutral or be enjoying watching Spain do their thing, probably still up for Ireland though because I do like to support the underdog anyway.

gosplan wrote: »

This is it in a nutshell.

If you think football is performance driven, then you'll hate Trap.

If you think it's results driven, then you'll love him.

He may be fecked on both fronts come the end of Ireland's Euro campaign........

plasmaguy

cambo2008 wrote: »

In the last 2 years if you throw in the friendlies aswel the only top team we've beaten is Italy in a 2-0 win.
Brazil,Argentina,Norway,Uruguay and Russia all outplayed and beat us.
That's the standard we will be up against in this tournament.

To be honest, just qualifying is enough, and gives the fans and country a lift and an experience.

No-one seriously believes we can do well.

If we gain 1 point, it will be a success.

Look what Croatia, Spain and Italy have, and look what we have in terms of skill and talent. They are in a different league to be honest.

Qualifying was to be honest an outstanding achievement, and we are in bonus territory now.

If Trapatoni got Ireland to the semis or final of the Euros which no-one expects him or any Irish manager to do, there would still be the usual arm-chair critics who would say, terrible, not good enough, amateurish, and so on, ie people who make a living out of latching onto and trying to take successful people down. Just by putting their own name and Trapatoni's in the same sentence, they gain a degree of fame or infamy, but let's be honest most of Trap's critics aren't fit to polish his shoes.

It's easy to be an armchair critic and most armchair critics have achieved little in the game or are failed managers.

gosplan

Any numpty who's arguing that there's any approach which will make us anything less than massive underdogs to get out of this group is really talking sh1te.

There's a blueprint in football of how a sh1t team beats a great team.

gosplan

briany wrote: »

He may be fecked on both fronts come the end of Ireland's Euro campaign........

You know, that's the bit that might really hurt. Not Ireland getting knocked out but the numpty's saying how different it would have been if Wes Hoolohan had been in the team.

plasmaguy

EdenHazard wrote: »

Yeah, why not? The longer we keep the ball, the less time Spain have to score. Andrews and Whelan are shockingly bad footballers, who aren't defensive midfielders, Andrews especially is in no way a holding midfielder. Might as well try keep the ball longer, it has absolutely no disadvantage, in fact keeping the ball is one of footballs basic principles. We have players who are good footballers, who can do that. If Trap was amazing, we woulda finished top of that group, he really isn't that good.

That's bullsh*t. You are just parroting what somone like Dunphy often says, and he almost always disregards what't before his eyes and what everyone else who knows something about the game can see.

Andrews has been our most consistant player during the Trapatoni era, and most of all he has been outstanding in big games where it really counted, and stepped up to the mark, absolutely no-one disputes that.

He was outstanding in Paris against the French, and he was outstanding against Lativa away, our two biggest games in the Trap era, both of which should have qualified us for major tournaments. In Moscow, he, Dunne and McGeady were the only ones who came away with any credit, and I think he blocked a last minute shot on goal.

Whelan also chipped in with a goal or two in recent years in big games, and also some very good performances.

If you parrot what people like Dunphy say, you will quickly lose credibility around here.

latenia

bullvine wrote: »

This is the worst bunch of irish players ever, not one of them plays for a big club

The days of Ireland having 2 or 3 first 11 starters from each of Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal, are gone for good thanks to the influx of international stars into the premiership. Here's the Euro 88 squad; I reckon most of them would be playing for the likes of Wolves or Sunderland today.

http://www.soccer-ireland.com/euro-1988/republic-ireland-squad.htm

Mr.Nice Guy

This argument is somewhat reminiscent of the arguments made during the Irish War of Independence over IRA tactics. Some wanted an end to the guerilla warfare methods because they felt it made Ireland look bad internationally. They felt there was a 'moral' way of warfare and sought a return to the stand-and-fight style of the 1916 Rising. This was considered the proper way. The popular way. What the likes of Collins knew was that this style wouldn't work and would expose the men to too much risk of either capture or death. The hit-and-run approach was the best way, as ugly as some may have found it, because ultimately it was what got results.

In my view this attitude is correct for sport as well. You shouldn't demand from men what cannot in good reason be attained on the basis of pure principle. Ultimately, the men require protection and any good manager - just like any good general - does not put his men in harm's way unnecessarily for the sake of simple ideology.

It was said there had to be a compromise between style and success. There doesn't. There can't be any compromise. We have not got the resources to offer up anything different.

We simply do not have the quality of players that our opponents at Euro 2012 possess. If we play them at their game, we lose. Therefore we play them at Trap's game to give ourselves a chance.

Let us remember too we beat one of our Euro 2012 opponents 2-0 in a friendly last year with this system and avoided defeat against them home and away in our WC campaign. We beat France 1-0 over 90 minutes in Paris with this system. Realistically, you wouldn't expect us to beat the bigger teams anyway - that's why they're called bigger teams.

People here seriously need to appreciate we are going into this group as MASSIVE underdogs and that outside of this island very few give us a prayer of advancing to the next round. They are right.

In many ways we need a miracle and we need to get behind the man who so far has worked miracles with this team.

briany

To be fair to Andrews and Whelan, the majority of criticism I've heard of them as it pertains to their Ireland roles is not that they can't play but just that they're shackled by the system. We've definitely seen both players do things at different times that show they can be an asset in the sense of going forward and being proactive. They must be playing the way he wants them to and to his relative satisfaction because they have started nearly every game under him. We know how Trap feels about and does with players who don't carry out or fit into his plan.

plasmaguy

I agree mr. nice guy.

Feck the begrudgers. If they don't like the football, no-one is forcing them to watch.

I for one will be getting behind the team and hoping they do well.

Trapatoni has nothing to prove to anyone and if we lose all three games, I and most sane people will still believe he has done a good job.

That said, Trap is a wily old fox, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland produce a couple of surprises in that group and even come out of the group.

Italy are better than they were a couple years ago, but so are Ireland. Croatia, a lot of those eastern European countries flatter to deceive when it's really put up to them, and I don't think they cope too well with being favourites in matches. So I think either Italy or Croatia are there for the taking, to be honest.

As for Spain, it will be damage limitation, but on the plus side, both Torres and Villa are out of sorts, and you really need world class strikers on form at this level.

But like I said, let's all trust in Trap!

EdenHazard

plasmaguy wrote: »

FFS.

We don't have the players to retain possession. Name me one Irish player who is currently a midfielder in a top 4 EPL team or on a Champions League team. Contrast that with Iniesta and Xavi who play for the best club team in the world, or Ramos, another example who plays for the second best.

This forum amazes me. They are pro footballers of course they can keep the ball, look at Swansea and the credit they've been getting for keeping the ball down and playing and the relative success it's brought them. WHEN IRELAND HAS TO(AFTER GOING BEHIND) WE KEEP THE BALL AND PLAY PURPOSEFULLY.
It's not about playing ****ing 4-3-3 Gung Ho, it's that now that we're in the Euros the goal has to be to win it, why else be there?
Hence, we need to evolve our game to give us the best chance in an extremely hard group. Our current gameplay works against teams we are superior to anyway(Slovakia, Armenia, Estonia) but when it comes to the group in the Euros, giving the ball away will ensure we have an even smaller chance of progressing than we do now. GIVING THE BALL AWAY LIKE IRELAND DOES AND CONDONING IT GOES AGAINST ANY FOOTBALLING PRINCIPAL How is trying to keep the ball longer in anyway a bad thing?

Re: Andrews and Whelan, ok bit much they mightn't be that bad, but Andrews isn't a defensive midfielder and shoe horning him to play that position when we have better players more suited to the role available makes no sense.

plasmaguy

EdenHazard wrote: »

This forum amazes me. They are pro footballers of course they can keep the ball, look at Swansea and the credit they've been getting for keeping the ball down and playing and the relative success it's brought them. WHEN IRELAND HAS TO(AFTER GOING BEHIND) WE KEEP THE BALL AND PLAY PURPOSEFULLY.
It's not about playing ****ing 4-3-3 Gung Ho, it's that now that we're in the Euros the goal has to be to win it, why else be there?
Hence, we need to evolve our game to give us the best chance in an extremely hard group. Our current gameplay works against teams we are superior to anyway(Slovakia, Armenia, Estonia) but when it comes to the group in the Euros, giving the ball away will ensure we have an even smaller chance of progressing than we do now. GIVING THE BALL AWAY LIKE IRELAND DOES AND CONDONING IT GOES AGAINST ANY FOOTBALLING PRINCIPAL How is trying to keep the ball longer in anyway a bad thing?

Re: Andrews and Whelan, ok bit much they mightn't be that bad, but Andrews isn't a defensive midfielder and shoe horning him to play that position when we have better players more suited to the role available makes no sense.

I don't think the Swansea comparison makes much sense.

Stick Swansea in against someone like Barcelona or Real Madrid and they would get hammered.

Technically we just aren't on the same level as Spain, particularly their midfield, in fact no team in the world is.

Anyways, Trap has qualified us with a certain formula. Arguing what might have been with a different (Barcelona?) formula is just plain silly, and is the the type of thing the armchair RTE critics would do, or barstool chat, or the fantasy footballers.

I don't think a midfield made up of Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland(who doesn't want to play for us anyways), Wes Holohan and someone else would be anything other than easily outclassed by teams like Spain and we'd be hammered by at least 5 goals.

EdenHazard

Well Ireland Hoolihan Reid would be an awful midfield, I'm not calling for that. What I want is a team that imposes itself on the game, like we can to, like against France in Paris.
With our current tactics, we should have been demolished by Russia, it wasn't a great game plan from Trapattoni that got us a result, it was Dunne and a ridiculous amount of luck.

I think people are overstating Trap's achievment, it's good that he got us to Euro's, some managers wouldn't have but with the group and playoff we got, we would have been favourites to qualify anyway. It wasn't a miracle or near it. Finishing top would have been impressive.

Trap's defining moment came in Paris, when we didn't play in the Trapattoni way, everything else he's done has been fairly typical of Ireland. WE NEVER LOSE ANYWAY, I'd reckon in competitive games since 2000, we've barely lost over 10 games(I count 6 defeats since 2005. 2000-2005 Switzerland twice, Russia, Iran) 10 defeats in 12 years, so we're not ****ing minnow, the way people talk about us on here, you'd swear we were Northern Ireland.
With Staunton in charge we lost 3 times, which was seen as a disaster, that in a group with a revived Germany on back of WC 2006 and Czech Republic(when they were still kinda ok)

briany

plasmaguy wrote: »

I don't think a midfield made up of Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland(who doesn't want to play for us anyways), Wes Holohan and someone else would be anything other than easily outclassed by teams like Spain and we'd be hammered by at least 5 goals.

If by that you mean Ireland would be playing a more open attacking game then I agree, an open attacking Ireland would get beaten worse than a closed off Ireland, although they might nick a goal too, but the defensive Ireland probably wouldn't be able to live with Spain either. When Ireland played France in that playoff in the first leg, one thing that counted against them was that they were chasing the ball, scrapping to get it back, for the vast majority of the game and they were a much tireder team by the end of that first game. Stamina wise Ireland will be in for a torrid time at the Euros if they're going to be ran all over the pitch looking for the ball but I don't think they can match wits in an attacking passing game especially against big teams who are up for it. The best hope right now would be that Ireland can perfect it's defensive system between then and now and look to nick a win V. Croatia followed by two draws.

plasmaguy

briany wrote: »

If by that you mean Ireland would be playing a more open attacking game then I agree, an open attacking Ireland would get beaten worse than a closed off Ireland, although they might nick a goal too, but the defensive Ireland probably wouldn't be able to live with Spain either. When Ireland played France in that playoff in the first leg, one thing that counted against them was that they were chasing the ball, scrapping to get it back, for the vast majority of the game and they were a much tireder team by the end of that first game. Stamina wise Ireland will be in for a torrid time at the Euros if they're going to be ran all over the pitch looking for the ball but I don't think they can match wits in an attacking passing game especially against big teams who are up for it. The best hope right now would be that Ireland can perfect it's defensive system between then and now and look to nick a win V. Croatia followed by two draws.

I think the big fear is the Ireland v Spain game will be a rerun of the Russia v Ireland match, just as some posters have pointed out, where we don't retain possession and are run ragged for 90 minutes.

But you can only blame Trap so much for that. The Russians are/were technically brilliant (although with awful finishing). The Spanish are technically brillant, so only awful finishing again will save us and another brilliant disply from someone like Dunne or Given, and even that won't be enough.

You cannot create technically brilliant players overnight. Xavi, Inniesta and Fabrigas have been educated in that way almost since they could walk, and it takes years to learn and perfect.

The fault for our lack of technical brilliance doesn't lie with Trap, it lies with the FAI. We should be raising kids now to play like Barcelona and so on, and maybe in 20 years we will have our own Xavi or Inniesta.

And lets be honest, if there was an Irish Xavi out there, Trap would definitely have him in the team, and change it to suit, although he wouldn't include such a player if he couldn't tackle, which would be fair enough, Xavi is quite a good tackler by the way. But there is no-one eligible to play for Ireland who comes even close to being a Xavi, and if someone mentions Andy Reid, I don't know what I will do.

clubberlang12

But you can only blame Trap so much for that. The Russians are/were technically brilliant (although with awful finishing). The Spanish are technically brillant, so only awful finishing again will save us and another brilliant disply from someone like Dunne or Given, and even that won't be enough.

I'm sorry, but the Russian's are/were not technically brilliant. They may have looked good because of the space and time we afforded them. Does this suddenly mean the Czech's are technically brilliant for dominating the midfield against us? Our system allows opposition teams to look better than they are. We will be coming up against a better calibre of team in the Euro's. I believe if we play the same system we will be committing football suicide over there. The likes of Macedonia, Andorra, Estonia, Slovakia, Russia and Armenia all found the back of our net in the qualifying stages so we are far from impregnable.

On another note, when exactly did passing the ball about suddenly equate to playing like Barcelona? I'm sorry but passing and moving was around long before the current Barcelona team suddenly became the dictionary example for such.

Nobody here is claiming we should be like Barcelona. But as rightly mentioned here, there are teams with very limited resources who play football in a balanced way. And none of these teams have a Xavi or Iniesta in midfield for them.

tolosenc

plasmaguy wrote: »

I think the big fear is the Ireland v Spain game will be a rerun of the Russia v Ireland match, just as some posters have pointed out, where we don't retain possession and are run ragged for 90 minutes.

People seem to think also that no other team will employ a "hoof-ball" tactic when playing against the Spainish...

With David Villa out, Torres starting could gift us the poor finishing we need for a draw.

clubberlang12

tolosenc wrote: »

People seem to think also that no other team will employ a "hoof-ball" tactic when playing against the Spainish...

With David Villa out, Torres starting could gift us the poor finishing we need for a draw.

No guarantee Torres will even be in the squad, let alone starting for them. Soldado surely leaped ahead of him in squad, Llorente playing well also. Adrian starting to show some form and the possibility of Villa back before the Euro's, i wouldn't bet on Torres going unless his form improves dramatically.

plasmaguy

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but the Russian's are/were not technically brilliant. They may have looked good because of the space and time we afforded them. Does this suddenly mean the Czech's are technically brilliant for dominating the midfield against us? Our system allows opposition teams to look better than they are. We will be coming up against a better calibre of team in the Euro's. I believe if we play the same system we will be committing football suicide over there. The likes of Macedonia, Andorra, Estonia, Slovakia, Russia and Armenia all found the back of our net in the qualifying stages so we are far from impregnable.

On another note, when exactly did passing the ball about suddenly equate to playing like Barcelona? I'm sorry but passing and moving was around long before the current Barcelona team suddenly became the dictionary example for such.

Nobody here is claiming we should be like Barcelona. But as rightly mentioned here, there are teams with very limited resources who play football in a balanced way. And none of these teams have a Xavi or Iniesta in midfield for them.

The Czechs for all their possession could only score once against us, and that was a bit of a flukey goal as 9 times out of 10 we wouldn't have conceded it.

The Russians for all their midfield possession couldn't score against us.

I know we sometimes concede a lot of possession but possession does't count if you can't score. For all the possession other teams have against us, they still find us hard to score against. How many times have we conceded more than 1 goal in a competitive game under Trap? Russia and Italy at home are the only times I can remember.

Call it luck or just good defending or getting men behind the ball against technically superior teams, or just plain parking the bus as we seem to do in a lot of games.

We are still a hard team to beat, the stats back that up, and I think we will still be a hard team to beat in the Euros. If we get two draws and nick a victory from somewhere, then that's good enough.

starviewadams

Torres wasn't even included in the Spanish squad for their friendly last week,so if he keeps up his awful form for Chelsea I wouldn't bank on him making their Euro 2012 squad,unfortunately for us.

We'll be forced to deal with the in form likes of Roberto Soldado and Iker Muniain instead.

Ferris_Bueller

Tried to avoid this thread because it drives me up the wall when people criticize the job Trap has done! I wasn't old enough to experience Italia 90 or USA 94, but it makes me sad to think them days will never come around again - Irish people just expect us to do well, when realistically we have no reason to think that. We have no world class players, small population, very high competition within the country with other sports, a semi-professional national league. Why do we always expect to do well? I do it myself, when we only drew with Slovakia I was disappointed, but at least I can admit Trap is doing a good job, great job even.

After the Czech game I was speaking to some Czech fans in town, they said that they were very disappointed with the draw and that back home that would be considered a bad result, but we regularly achieve these results, why? IMO it is because of Trap and the way he has the team playing. The euros will be frustrating I think, our own fans will criticize us if we don't qualify out of the group, but realistically guys, we shouldn't be, the only reason I say shouldn't, and not won't, is because of Trap.

clubberlang12

plasmaguy wrote: »

The Russians for all their midfield possession couldn't score against us.

The Russians scored 3 against us at home and could have gone in 6 up at half time. The fact they didn't score in Moscow is in reality a miracle. If that game was played 9 time out of 10 the Russians would probably have won and scored a number of goals as well.

Lets face it, keeping clean sheets against the like's of Andorra and Macedonia should be a given at this level. The fact i'm trying to point out is that we have conceded goals against poor opposition. Our system doesn;t help us in that department i feel and won't help us in the Euro's.

I would love to see us get one or two draws and nick a win over there but do you realistically see that happening. As i said on a previous post, this is not being Anti-Trap but more Pro-Reality.

clubberlang12

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

After the Czech game I was speaking to some Czech fans in town, they said that they were very disappointed with the draw and that back home that would be considered a bad result, but we regularly achieve these results, why? IMO it is because of Trap and the way he has the team playing. The euros will be frustrating I think, our own fans will criticize us if we don't qualify out of the group, but realistically guys, we shouldn't be, the only reason I say shouldn't, and not won't, is because of Trap.

To be honest, i would say they were more disappointed with controlling the game only to concede a soft late equaliser. I know that is how i would feel being in their shoes.

I think most fans don't expect us to qualify from out group so i'm not sure where you think we'll criticise them for not doing so. People might criticise the probable style of play alright.

plasmaguy

clubberlang12 wrote: »

The Russians scored 3 against us at home and could have gone in 6 up at half time. The fact they didn't score in Moscow is in reality a miracle. If that game was played 9 time out of 10 the Russians would probably have won and scored a number of goals as well.

Lets face it, keeping clean sheets against the like's of Andorra and Macedonia should be a given at this level. The fact i'm trying to point out is that we have conceded goals against poor opposition. Our system doesn;t help us in that department i feel and won't help us in the Euro's.

I would love to see us get one or two draws and nick a win over there but do you realistically see that happening. As i said on a previous post, this is not being Anti-Trap but more Pro-Reality.

Look its a fair point and I said earlier they would have hammered us but for some awful finishing.

But you also cannot argue with the fact that while teams might dominate possession against us, they still find it hard to actually physically put the ball in the net against us, and if we maintain that, we have a chance at the Euros.

I don't see us being beaten by 3 or 4 goals in the Euros, so whenever you are a goal down you always have a chance in a game to draw as we did against the Czechs or even win.

Our results on paper in recent years look good, but were some poor games to watch.

Still, qualification is always decided on what your results are on paper. Exiting this thread now as its late.

EdenHazard

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Tried to avoid this thread because it drives me up the wall when people criticize the job Trap has done! I wasn't old enough to experience Italia 90 or USA 94, but it makes me sad to think them days will never come around again - Irish people just expect us to do well, when realistically we have no reason to think that. We have no world class players, small population, very high competition within the country with other sports, a semi-professional national league. Why do we always expect to do well? I do it myself, when we only drew with Slovakia I was disappointed, but at least I can admit Trap is doing a good job, great job even.

After the Czech game I was speaking to some Czech fans in town, they said that they were very disappointed with the draw and that back home that would be considered a bad result, but we regularly achieve these results, why? IMO it is because of Trap and the way he has the team playing. The euros will be frustrating I think, our own fans will criticize us if we don't qualify out of the group, but realistically guys, we shouldn't be, the only reason I say shouldn't, and not won't, is because of Trap.

The Czech Republic are terrible, it's a poor result for US not to beat them at home.

For the record, I think we'll be OK in the Euros because Trap will have the players with the mindset that we're 'away'(which we are but so is other team) and we are much better away than home when it comes to passing and controlling game(which doesn't say that much)
I think we'll get 4 points.

On first part, yeah your right, a lack of a thriving national league, plus small population etc. means our expectations shouldn't be that great, but for whatever reason our player pool has tended to be relatively strong in the last decade so that we expect second in any qualification campaign.(10 competitive defeats in 12 years is testament to this)

That's changing though. I think we can forget about being legitimate qualifiers for a while after Dunne, Keane, Duff and Given finally retire. We should be fine for Euros since it's increasing to 24 teams, but World Cups? I wouldn't be banking on us qualifying for Russia 2018.

Raskolnikov

EdenHazard wrote: »

Andrews and Whelan are shockingly bad footballers

Whelan plays with 9th placed Stoke, Andrews plays with 10th place West Brom - considering we don't have central midfielders with any club in a higher position than that, I would hate to know what you think of James McCarthy who just about every week gets destroyed for Wigan.

EdenHazard

OK, stupid comment but stand by the fact that Andrews isn't a defensive midfielder in any form. McCarthy still better than them tho even tho he's sucked lately.

Pro. F

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Whelan plays with 9th placed Stoke, Andrews plays with 10th place West Brom - considering we don't have central midfielders with any club in a higher position than that, I would hate to know what you think of James McCarthy who just about every week gets destroyed for Wigan.

Judging players based on the league position of the team they play in is retarded.

Bounty Hunter

Rhys Essien wrote: »

We are going into a tournement where winning only matters.Kerr won more games with a lesser squad and had tougher qualifing campaigns.We were lucky to get Estonia in the play offs.Had we got anyone else we were fcuked.
How many draws did we had in qualifing?
All I am saying is going forward,having draws is not good enough.

With the stats as it stands,Trap is on the same level as Mick McCarthy at international level.

not losing also matters, what is Trap % of losses when compared to similar nations or previous managers I wonder. I'd imagine its pretty good. A draw against spain in our group game (cos we will obviously meet again in the final) wouldn't be considerd not good enough id imagine.

Ireland have one of the greatest managers in the world and yet some genius's want him replaced with what would be an almost certain inferior manager.

Let's copy the English eh...

Will I Amnt

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

not losing also matters

Not losing wont count for anything unless we win one.
3 draws will not be good enough.
A loss to Spain and a win and a draw will surely see us through.

Big Knox

EdenHazard wrote: »

So an 'effective strategy' is giving away the ball away easily to Xavi, Modric and the likes, is that what your saying?

Also Ireland does punch above it's weight....kinda(Croatia has same population and look at them) but that would happen with our without Trapattoni. We tend to have a good player pool that really could be a lot worse considering the population we have. With Duff, keane, given, dunne entering their last years though, we could enter into a lull period with seemingly lack of replacements of their level of ability.

EdenHazard wrote: »

Yeah, why not? The longer we keep the ball, the less time Spain have to score. Andrews and Whelan are shockingly bad footballers, who aren't defensive midfielders, Andrews especially is in no way a holding midfielder. Might as well try keep the ball longer, it has absolutely no disadvantage, in fact keeping the ball is one of footballs basic principles. We have players who are good footballers, who can do that. If Trap was amazing, we woulda finished top of that group, he really isn't that good.

Jesus Christ this is getting ridiculous. I'm going to break this down in a fashion you might actually get. If you try to play possession football against "Xavi, Modric and the likes" you will loose horribly every time. I'm going to take a guess here and say you rate Jose Mourinho quite highly?

Well he tried to play possession football against Barca who consist of "Xavi and the likes" who will line out for Spain alongside Iniesta against us. I'm sure you remember the outcome of that initial game. Mourinho learned his lesson very quickly and adopted to play a holding defensive game in every meeting since.

Now I might be wrong here but i'm fairly sure Alonso, Khedira, Kaka, Ozil and Ronaldo etc. are slightly better at posession football then McCarthy and fcuking Meyler!!!

We play a system that gets the best use out of the players we have at our disposal, that involves a defensive style using Andrews and Whelan and it has served us well getting us qualified for the euro's. Do you honestly believe we would be better off trying to play possession football against teams like Spain and Croatia? Wake up ffs!!

Bounty Hunter

cambo2008 wrote: »

Not losing wont count for anything unless we win one.
3 draws will not be good enough.
A loss to Spain and a win and a draw will surely see us through.

Wont get into a discussion that I can only really see going around in circled but you say a win a loss and a draw would see us potentially go through considering the two big teams in our group I'd see someone like Trap as being more likely to guide a team to not losing against one of those sides. Then in the game which just going by probability is the one we have the best chance to win in I would argue that although someone else might be more likely to lead the side to a win, trap would also be more expected to do so.

put simply i'd be more inclined to think it more likely that trap would get a result in a tough game than he would get a worse result than someone else in a less difficult one.

aidan24326

For all his hyperbole Dunphy does make some good points at times, but when he talks of us having great players he's talking sh1te. We have 4 players who used to be top class and are now in the latter stages of their careers. Still pretty good but hardly world class.

Outside of that we have alot of players who are pretty ordinary. Stephen Ward and Glenn Whelan are not players that will live long in the memory once they retire. And yet Trap has taken this bunch of players, a decent bunch at best, and made them one of the best organised and hardest-to-beat teams in Europe. So as much as I and many others have criticised him in the past he does deserve credit for that.

Pisses me off that he still puts Paul Green on the pitch though. A poor player at this level.

briany

aidan24326 wrote: »

And yet Trap has taken this bunch of players, a decent bunch at best, and made them one of the best organised and hardest-to-beat teams in Europe.

Ireland have played three "top" teams in competition and in all three sets of games, they came out the worse on aggregate : 3-3 against Italy, losing on head to head away goals, 2-3 against Russia and 1-2 against France so against that sort of caliber of team where you are trying to not lose first and maybe win second, Ireland did not hit their objective. I know that it was only the odd goal or not even that but beaten is beaten. Ireland's game proves problematic for smaller technical teams who Ireland can shunt off the ball which makes them tough to beat but the opponents Ireland face at Euro 2012 will have enough to live with Ireland physically while passing through them and when this comes to pass, will there be a plan B?

Will I Amnt

briany wrote: »

Ireland have played three "top" teams in competition and in all three sets of games, they came out the worse on aggregate : 3-3 against Italy, losing on head to head away goals, 2-3 against Russia and 1-2 against France so against that sort of caliber of team where you are trying to not lose first and maybe win second, Ireland did not hit their objective. I know that it was only the odd goal or not even that but beaten is beaten. Ireland's game proves problematic for smaller technical teams who Ireland can shunt off the ball which makes them tough to beat but the opponents Ireland face at Euro 2012 will have enough to live with Ireland physically while passing through them and when this comes to pass, will there be a plan B?

You're wasting your time,we should be just happy to be there and the country will get such a lift watching our arses being handed to us every game.

Warper

This is typical of the Irish mentality - giving out more when we are doing well. Trap is doing an excellent job with limited resources. What do we want a Chelsea scenario where Trap shouldn't be allowed pick his own team? He is the manager, now lets get behind the guy instead of this constant bickering about team selection and style of play.