Trappatoni Win% Record

briany

Warper wrote: »

This is typical of the Irish mentality - giving out more when we are doing well. Trap is doing an excellent job with limited resources. What do we want a Chelsea scenario where Trap shouldn't be allowed pick his own team? He is the manager, now lets get behind the guy instead of this constant bickering about team selection and style of play.

I think the vast majority of us will be getting behind the team absolutely and hoping that they can pull it out of the hat somehow but it's also important to put paid to the myth that Ireland are a tough team for the top sides to beat in competitive play. The statistics don't back that up and we'd be better off putting our hopes in the spirit and tenacity of the team because whatever happens you can be proud of that if it's put on display. The Irish losses that really hurt are the ones where the team goes out and gives some listless display ala Switzerland 2003, 2005.

Pro. F

Big Knox wrote: »

Jesus Christ this is getting ridiculous. I'm going to break this down in a fashion you might actually get. If you try to play possession football against "Xavi, Modric and the likes" you will loose horribly every time. I'm going to take a guess here and say you rate Jose Mourinho quite highly?

Well he tried to play possession football against Barca who consist of "Xavi and the likes" who will line out for Spain alongside Iniesta against us. I'm sure you remember the outcome of that initial game. Mourinho learned his lesson very quickly and adopted to play a holding defensive game in every meeting since.

This is not true. Mourinho has played lots of different styles against Barca. He has pressed high, defended deep, kept possession and surrendered it in different games and he has had small success and failure with all of them. To try and portray that the first time he played them he got tonked playing possession football and that he has played a holding defensive game every time since then is blatantly false on both counts.

Orando Broom

gosplan wrote: »

Ha.

It wasn't France and Switzerland that was Kerr's problem, it was conceding a late equaliser to Israel ... twice!!!

I agree that it'd be nice to play positive football but it was useless to Kerr because they weren't solid and conceded sloppy equalisers.

Did Kerr not take Robbie Keane off against Israel over there to replace him with a defender?

My abiding memory of Kerr's teams were taking the lead and hiding in defence for the rest of the game hoping to avoid conceding an equaliser. I feel he was hard done by in some ways but Kerr was a manager who lost his nerve far too many times. A great coach and knows the game inside out but when it comes to the big jobs he comes up waaaay short. I'd have that guy as number two any day, just so long as he wasn't making the big calls.

Raskolnikov

Pro. F wrote: »

Judging players based on the league position of the team they play in is retarded.

You're right, shame we're not just going by league position as his performances have generally been ****e.

Pro. F

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You're right, shame we're not just going by league position as his performances have generally been ****e.

They haven't been that bad. He is good in possession and keeps the ball moving well for them at times. He can also tackle too.

I agree with the people who say that he doesn't work hard enough, but you also have to take into account how shít a manager Martinez is. He has no discernible effect on his teams other than picking the starting 11 and making substitutions. They have no discipline and are left to do whatever they want on the pitch. McCarthy does a lot of strolling when the team don't have the ball.

I really hope Wigan goes down and some team with a better manager takes on a punt on him. He needs some proper coaching desperately.

Either way, talking about league positions for judging the quality of individual players is still retarded.

Orando Broom wrote: »

Did Kerr not take Robbie Keane off against Israel over there to replace him with a defender?

My abiding memory of Kerr's teams were taking the lead and hiding in defence for the rest of the game hoping to avoid conceding an equaliser. I feel he was hard done by in some ways but Kerr was a manager who lost his nerve far too many times. A great coach and knows the game inside out but when it comes to the big jobs he comes up waaaay short. I'd have that guy as number two any day, just so long as he wasn't making the big calls.

Totally true. This idea that Kerr played any sort of positive football is a complete myth.

aidan24326

briany wrote: »

Ireland have played three "top" teams in competition and in all three sets of games, they came out the worse on aggregate : 3-3 against Italy, losing on head to head away goals, 2-3 against Russia and 1-2 against France so against that sort of caliber of team where you are trying to not lose first and maybe win second, Ireland did not hit their objective. I know that it was only the odd goal or not even that but beaten is beaten. Ireland's game proves problematic for smaller technical teams who Ireland can shunt off the ball which makes them tough to beat but the opponents Ireland face at Euro 2012 will have enough to live with Ireland physically while passing through them and when this comes to pass, will there be a plan B?

We still don't get beaten very often though. And over the years, even before Trap's time, we have rarely lost by much against anyone, including the best teams. I don't think anyone likes playing us at this stage. We probably won't qualify from our group (though Italy and Croatia are beatable it has to be said)but we certainly won't get hammered either. Trap has made us an awkward team to play against and maybe that's as much as we could wiah for with the players we have.

Jack Charlton had some of the best Irish players ever, Paul McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran etc, and he still wouldn't let them play. Now THAT was criminal. Trap has got us to a major tournament with a limited bunch, and as much as his style mightn't always be pleasing on the eye it's been getting results for the most part.

briany

aidan24326 wrote: »

We still don't get beaten very often though. And over the years, even before Trap's time, we have rarely lost by much against anyone, including the best teams. I don't think anyone likes playing us at this stage. We probably won't qualify from our group (though Italy and Croatia are beatable it has to be said)but we certainly won't get hammered either. Trap has made us an awkward team to play against and maybe that's as much as we could wiah for with the players we have.

I agree that Ireland don't get beaten by much but teams tend only to do what they have to do to win. Why break your back trying to beat a team 5-0 when 2-0 would do just as well. Ireland are awkward to play against and this puts them in good stead beating out the lower seeds because Ireland can bully smaller teams enough to get a result but bigger teams have enough about them to cope so, to me, the best quality of the Irish team is their spirit and it's the quality I'd be banking on to amplify all areas of their game and in doing so, at least give a showing the country can really get behind.

plasmaguy

A couple of points.

It's been said repeatedly that Ireland under Trap play at their best when they have nothing to lose. This is one reason I would be optimistic about our chances in the Euros.

Trap has qualified us and he has his new contract in the bag and will be charge regardless. So the pressure on him is off. The pressure is also off the players, as we are qualified now.

As I said, when we have nothing to lose we often play at our best, for example when we go a goal down as against Italy in Bari, or when we are chasing a tie as in Paris or generally away from home.

Two minnows of world football who done this at the Euros in recent decades were Denmark and Greece. Zero expectations from anyone, no pressure, nothing to lose, play with abandon and so on. So there is a precedent for a minnow doing well from low expectations and I think we all need to be honest and fair, we don't have the calibre of player Spain, Italy or even Croatia mostly has.

The other point is, yes we concede an awful lot of possession in midfield, but at the same time are difficult to score against. The possible reason for this is, when you attack with the ball, players often end up out of position, central midfielder in the box, wing backs up at the corner flag, centre back at half way line. This is one of the reasons many teams concede on the counter attack. Sometimes it's even better not to have the ball too much, but to hold your shape.

Mourinho was the classic exponent of this philosophy against Barcelona for Inter a couple years ago. Inter didn't want the ball, particularly in the second leg. They were content for Barca to have the ball, and the Inter players all kept their shape. In the first leg, they scored a few goals on the counter attack. It's not great to watch, but sometimes it's the only way a team of lesser technical ability can win.

Anyone who believes there is an Irish player out there, either McCarthy, Holohan, Ireland, A. Reid or anyone who is in the same league as Xavi and Inniesta really needs a reality check. Some of the best teams in the world such as Real Madrid struggle to win possession from Barcelona, and Barcelona are also experts at closing down and winning back possesion, as Guardiola gives his players 6 seconds to win the ball back, and most times they do.

And it's mostly the same for Spain, no matter if they are playing Germany, Holland and you will see it as well in the Euros. With the best will in the world you just aren't going to retain the ball more than Spain.

I'd rather win an ugly game than lose a beautiful one, I just know that will upset the purists on here.

plasmaguy

aidan24326 wrote: »

We still don't get beaten very often though. And over the years, even before Trap's time, we have rarely lost by much against anyone, including the best teams. I don't think anyone likes playing us at this stage. We probably won't qualify from our group (though Italy and Croatia are beatable it has to be said)but we certainly won't get hammered either. Trap has made us an awkward team to play against and maybe that's as much as we could wiah for with the players we have.

Jack Charlton had some of the best Irish players ever, Paul McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran etc, and he still wouldn't let them play. Now THAT was criminal. Trap has got us to a major tournament with a limited bunch, and as much as his style mightn't always be pleasing on the eye it's been getting results for the most part.

Eoin Hand had a lot of the same players as Charlton and they were more at their peak then, and Giles had a few of them as well. Charlton's methods were very successful in getting results, he got us to the quarter finals of the WC, one of the smallest countries ever to get that far, and were unlucky to lose to the Italians.

Saying we could have been more successful playing another way is frankly nuts. A lot of our goals such as Quinn's equaliser against Holland in Italia 90 came from hoofing it route 1. There is absolutely nothing to suggest, trying another way would have worked. In WC94, we did keep it on the ground more than Italia 90, and the results were mixed at best.

Coillte_Bhoy

plasmaguy wrote: »

A couple of points.

It's been said repeatedly that Ireland under Trap play at their best when they have nothing to lose. This is one reason I would be optimistic about our chances in the Euros.

Trap has qualified us and he has his new contract in the bag and will be charge regardless. So the pressure on him is off. The pressure is also off the players, as we are qualified now.

As I said, when we have nothing to lose we often play at our best, for example when we go a goal down as against Italy in Bari, or when we are chasing a tie as in Paris or generally away from home.

So lets hope we concede early in our Euro C'ship games and watch us respond

plasmaguy wrote: »

Two minnows of world football who done this at the Euros in recent decades were Denmark and Greece. Zero expectations from anyone, no pressure, nothing to lose, play with abandon and so on.

There is no way we will platy with abandon under Trap

plasmaguy wrote: »

So there is a precedent for a minnow doing well from low expectations and I think we all need to be honest and fair, we don't have the calibre of player Spain, Italy or even Croatia mostly has.

For gods sake no one is suggesting anything of the sort

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'd rather win an ugly game than lose a beautiful one, I just know that will upset the purists on here.

No argument there

plasmaguy

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So lets hope we concede early in our Euro C'ship games and watch us respond



There is no way we will platy with abandon under Trap



For gods sake no one is suggesting anything of the sort






No argument there

Look, I think a lot of posters are getting ridiculous now, and buying into what some commentators have been saying, the same auld commentators who are hyping up the players to serve their own agenda.

The Russian's, Spanish, Italians, Germans, Croatians, English, French, Portuguese and Dutch, every team they put out, has 11 Champions League players in it.

The Dutch for example can afford to leave out players like Clarance Seedorf or Ruud Van Nistilroy, the French can leave out players like Anelka, also all the other teams. Champions League players can't get near their squads.

Contrast that with Ireland. There isn't a single Irish player that has played Champions League football this year.

So let's get real. We have punched above our weight under Trap more so than any other manager.

Charlton, Kerr and Staunton all could call on a number of Champions League players.

Trap can't call on a single one and that is most definitely not Trap's fault. This is one indicator of the quality of player he has to choose from. And yet he has qualified us for one major tournament, and came within a hairs breath of another.

A Wales team on the other hand with Bale and Bellamy and that Arsenal kid, hasn't come within a sniff of either tournaments.

Trap has done a fantastic job with players of limited ability. Anyone who says we'd be better with McCarthy, or A. Reid or whoever is deceiving themselves.

In terms of International standard, we are effectively a team with League One (English League) type resources competing against Teams with Premier League type resources. So let's be realistic. With the best will in the world, Trap is dealing with limited players.

Eamon Dunphy was a limited player when he played. Was Johnny Giles able to make him a better player at international level? Of course he wasn't. Limited players are limited players, they won't wake up one morning and start playing like Xavi.

Pro. F

plasmaguy wrote: »

I think we all need to be honest and fair, we don't have the calibre of player Spain, Italy or even Croatia mostly has.

I'm open to correction on this, but I would say if you compare the players available for positions 1 to 11 we probably do have a similar calibre to Croatia. For examples, in Given, Dunne, JOS and St Ledger we have a lot of quality at the back. And in Keane and co. we have a lot of good quality options up front. The Croatians have some stand out players, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that they are lacking in some departments too. As I say, I'm open to correction on it if there is anybody with a good knowledge of the Croatian set up.

plasmaguy wrote: »

The other point is, yes we concede an awful lot of possession in midfield, but at the same time are difficult to score against. The possible reason for this is, when you attack with the ball, players often end up out of position, central midfielder in the box, wing backs up at the corner flag, centre back at half way line. This is one of the reasons many teams concede on the counter attack. Sometimes it's even better not to have the ball too much, but to hold your shape.

Mourinho was the classic exponent of this philosophy against Barcelona for Inter a couple years ago. Inter didn't want the ball, particularly in the second leg. They were content for Barca to have the ball, and the Inter players all kept their shape. In the first leg, they scored a few goals on the counter attack. It's not great to watch, but sometimes it's the only way a team of lesser technical ability can win.

Defending deep and inviting pressure against Spain/Barca is one thing. They are probably two of the best teams to ever play. Defending deep and surrendering possession against every team we play no matter how shíte is the problem.

plasmaguy

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but I would say if you compare the players available for positions 1 to 11 we probably do have a similar calibre to Croatia. For examples, in Given, Dunne, JOS and St Ledger we have a lot of quality at the back. And in Keane and co. we have a lot of good quality options up front. The Croatians have some stand out players, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that they are lacking in some departments too. As I say, I'm open to correction on it if there is anybody with a good knowledge of the Croatian set up.


Defending deep and inviting pressure against Spain/Barca is one thing. They are probably two of the best teams to ever play. Defending deep and surrendering possession against every team we play no matter how shíte is the problem.

I'd rather defend deep and not concede than keep a high line and get ripped to shreds every time Xavi threads a through ball to Villa which is bound to happen repeatedly if you play a high line. Anyone who thinks someone like Richard Dunne will somehow catch up with Villa once he has been put in behind is frankly nuts.

A game between Spain and Ireland, particularly a Spanish team which will have 8 or 9 Barca and Real players, is not going to be a fair contest. There is no point us even trying to play open expansive football, because we will get torn to pieces. In Spain week in week out, there are teams such as Valencia who try to play open football against the big two and get ripped apart, two weeks ago, Barca beat Valencia 5-0 with Messi scoring 4.

Open and expansive football is exactly what the Spanish thrive on, and unfortunately some Irish supporters and commentators are being lured into this trap.

Trap qualified us, that is the main thing. After that, most people don't give a sh*te about what style we used to qualify. It is and always will be a results driven game.

It's hard to compare players from different countries to be honest, there are two ways possibly. 1. Does the player play in the Champions League and 2. How much would they sell for if transferred.

Moderic would sell for about 30 milllion euro. The entire Irish team wouldn't be sold for 30 million euros in total.

Pro. F

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'd rather defend deep and not concede than keep a high line and get ripped to shreds every time Xavi threads a through ball to Villa which is bound to happen repeatedly if you play a high line. Anyone who thinks someone like Richard Dunne will somehow catch up with Villa once he has been put in behind is frankly nuts.

A game between Spain and Ireland, particularly a Spanish team which will have 8 or 9 Barca and Real players, is not going to be a fair contest. There is no point us even trying to play open expansive football, because we will get torn to pieces. In Spain week in week out, there are teams such as Valencia who try to play open football against the big two and get ripped apart, two weeks ago, Barca beat Valencia 5-0 with Messi scoring 4.

Open and expansive football is exactly what the Spanish thrive on, and unfortunately some Irish supporters and commentators are being lured into this trap.

Trap qualified us, that is the main thing. After that, most people don't give a sh*te about what style we used to qualify. It is and always will be a results driven game.

You misread my post.

But while we're on the topic of Barca in the Primera Liga, they have actually drawn and lost a few this season and high pressing has been used against them effectively. I wouldn't be saying that it is necessarily a defensive style that would suit us in that game, but discounting it out of hand is to ignore the evidence from the Primera Liga that you referred to.

Pro. F

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's hard to compare players from different countries to be honest, there are two ways possibly. 1. Does the player play in the Champions League and 2. How much would they sell for if transferred.

Moderic would sell for about 30 milllion euro. The entire Irish team wouldn't be sold for 30 million euros in total.

Modric is one player and he is not going to lead Croatia on his own. So his huge transfer value doesn't obviously tell us much about the general quality of the two teams.

You don't need to look at where the players are playing, only how good they are.

eire4

It is hard to argue against how our last 2 qualifying campaigns have gone. We obviously came oh so close to making the World Cup Finals and have now reached the European Championship finals for only the second time (although we did reach the quarter-finals in 1964 before there was a finals) although like many I have at times being frustrated by Tappatoni's ultra conervative approach.

There is equally a strong argument to be made that Brian Kerr should have been given more time in charge.

Coillte_Bhoy

plasmaguy wrote: »

Look, I think a lot of posters are getting ridiculous now, and buying into what some commentators have been saying, the same auld commentators who are hyping up the players to serve their own agenda.

The Russian's, Spanish, Italians, Germans, Croatians, English, French, Portuguese and Dutch, every team they put out, has 11 Champions League players in it.

The Dutch for example can afford to leave out players like Clarance Seedorf or Ruud Van Nistilroy, the French can leave out players like Anelka, also all the other teams. Champions League players can't get near their squads.

Contrast that with Ireland. There isn't a single Irish player that has played Champions League football this year.

So let's get real. We have punched above our weight under Trap more so than any other manager.

Charlton, Kerr and Staunton all could call on a number of Champions League players.

Trap can't call on a single one and that is most definitely not Trap's fault. This is one indicator of the quality of player he has to choose from. And yet he has qualified us for one major tournament, and came within a hairs breath of another.

A Wales team on the other hand with Bale and Bellamy and that Arsenal kid, hasn't come within a sniff of either tournaments.

Trap has done a fantastic job with players of limited ability. Anyone who says we'd be better with McCarthy, or A. Reid or whoever is deceiving themselves.

In terms of International standard, we are effectively a team with League One (English League) type resources competing against Teams with Premier League type resources. So let's be realistic. With the best will in the world, Trap is dealing with limited players.

Eamon Dunphy was a limited player when he played. Was Johnny Giles able to make him a better player at international level? Of course he wasn't. Limited players are limited players, they won't wake up one morning and start playing like Xavi.

I was merely replying to specific points you made but of course you dont deal in specifics only wild generalizations. I never mentioned Andy Reid, yes i think Mc Carthy is worth a look ahead of Green

plasmaguy

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I was merely replying to specific points you made but of course you dont deal in specifics only wild generalizations. I never mentioned Andy Reid, yes i think Mc Carthy is worth a look ahead of Green

Keep these kinds of posts up and I'll just stick you on ignore because they are immature posts.

Read my post again, it's full of specifics so please don't tell lies otherwise like I said I'll put you on ignore.

cournioni

Paully D wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

It really is going to take Trapattoni leaving and us being landed with another clown like Steve Staunton before some people will give the man a bit of credit.

He's taken a group of limited players (with the exception of a few), gave them an identity and system, and has transformed them from a team who weren't qualifying for tournaments, into a team that was robbed in a World Cup play-off and who qualified for a European Championship. The work he has done has been nothing short of fantastic.

The players we have at our disposal mean we can't play attractive free flowing football and get results at the same time. Despite what some people think, we just don't have the players to play like Germany.

Another stick people are beating him with is his refusal to play younger players. Well at least give him a break and let him use the squad he feels has the right team spirit for the European Championships. He'll integrate the younger lads for the next campaign, but for now he knows who he wants and that's fair enough.

I don't agree with everything he has done, but comparing his win percentage to the likes of Del Bosque, Low and Van Marwjick is like comparing Ferrari's to Nissan Micra's. The likes of Sweden, Denmark and Croatia aren't a ''similar level'' either. They have a history of qualifying for major tournaments recently and doing well at them too, Greece won the European Championships in 2004 beating the likes of France, Portugal, and the Czech Republic FFS.

There's too many people listening to the likes of Dunphy and getting their opinions from there. Turn off Football Manager, in reality the game doesn't work like that.

There's no-one we could realistically get who would be fit to lace Trap's boots, but many will find that out in the future.

The level of footballing knowledge on here is, for the most part, an absolute joke.

Soccer forum post of the year 2012.

aidan24326

If we assume Spain will win the group then surely second is up for grabs? This is not a great Italian team, and Croatia aren't world beaters either. I mean Italy aren't blessed with the kind of world class players they would have had in. the past so why not? Those two games are winnable imo.

Orando Broom

EdenHazard wrote: »

OK, stupid comment but stand by the fact that Andrews isn't a defensive midfielder in any form. McCarthy still better than them tho even tho he's sucked lately.

How do you rate Richie Dunne? Richie Dunne does not like a midfielder running at him. Not one bit. Andrews NEVER let's that happen. Richie Dunne has been getting great plaudits for some serious performances but remember the weak side of Dunne's game has not been exposed for Ireland in nearly four years.

Kick Andrews out and Ireland will be beaten out the gate. When McCarthy learns the system and covers one of our most important players and positions then let him play. Until then he should be glad he is in with a shout to be on the plane to Poland.

Corholio

Orando Broom wrote: »

How do you rate Richie Dunne? Richie Dunne does not like a midfielder running at him. Not one bit. Andrews NEVER let's that happen. Richie Dunne has been getting great plaudits for some serious performances but remember the weak side of Dunne's game has not been exposed for Ireland in nearly four years.

Kick Andrews out and Ireland will be beaten out the gate. When McCarthy learns the system and covers one of our most important players and positions then let him play. Until then he should be glad he is in with a shout to be on the plane to Poland.

Part of the reason Dunne has got those plaudits is because he's had to defend a lot the past few years, most of the time against half decent teams when our midfield has been bypassed. Andrews does a decent job at breaking up average teams play in midfield, but has struggled a lot against better players. Ironically, a reason this hasn't always been shown up is because of Dunne's and the Irish defence's subsequent defending

Warper

briany wrote: »

I think the vast majority of us will be getting behind the team absolutely and hoping that they can pull it out of the hat somehow but it's also important to put paid to the myth that Ireland are a tough team for the top sides to beat in competitive play. The statistics don't back that up and we'd be better off putting our hopes in the spirit and tenacity of the team because whatever happens you can be proud of that if it's put on display. The Irish losses that really hurt are the ones where the team goes out and gives some listless display ala Switzerland 2003, 2005.

Eh - how are we not hard to beat? We got a draw away in Russia and in Italy and beat France in Paris - what am i missing? We are better when other teams come onto us ie. playing away from home, which will suit us in the Summer. We are capable of nicking wins against Italy and Croatia but 4 pts might see us through. Either way we will not be disgraced in the Euro's considering the quality of our squad. Go on Trap ya legend.

Pro. F

Warper wrote: »

Eh - how are we not hard to beat? We got a draw away in Russia and in Italy and beat France in Paris - what am i missing? We are better when other teams come onto us ie. playing away from home, which will suit us in the Summer. We are capable of nicking wins against Italy and Croatia but 4 pts might see us through. Either way we will not be disgraced in the Euro's considering the quality of our squad. Go on Trap ya legend.

You mention the match away in Paris and yet you then say we are better when teams come onto us? The game in Paris showed how much better we perform when the opposite of Trap's system is adopted and we actually try to take the game to the opposition. In the first leg at home against France we were hopeless and bet using Trap's system.

briany

Warper wrote: »

Eh - how are we not hard to beat? We got a draw away in Russia and in Italy and beat France in Paris - what am i missing? We are better when other teams come onto us ie. playing away from home, which will suit us in the Summer. We are capable of nicking wins against Italy and Croatia but 4 pts might see us through. Either way we will not be disgraced in the Euro's considering the quality of our squad. Go on Trap ya legend.

Russia beat Ireland in Dublin and I think most would agree that the draw in Moscow was an unbelievable result given the number of chances that Russia had to bury Ireland time and time again. There was a lot of spirit shown there and a lot of disregard for life and limb shown by the Irish defense but not much evidence that Ireland are difficult to break down. As I recall, a lot of that game featured the Russians coming at the Irish team whereas the Italian and French away games, Ireland actually got on the ball and were proactive because both times they needed a goal.

I think the Ireland we'd like to see is one that played in Paris, that closed down tenaciously and denied space but also had some guile and craft going forward and they will need to go forward because they will find themselves a goal down in at least one of those three games.

grenache

For what it's worth I do not rate Trap at all. I scoff at people who claim that he got us to the world cup. Yes, his system has certainly improved our defence and we've leaked far less goals, but offensively we've been quite poor. Given the amount of luck we had in the group (Slovakia beating Russia, Armenia beating Slovakia, the Slovaks only scoring six goals in the group and us drawing in Moscow) not to mention the handiest playoff draw imaginable, is it any wonder we qualified for Poland & Ukraine?!! Dont even get me started on the drab football, the ball spends more time going backwards and in the air than it does going forward.

I'm a firm believer of putting out your best players on the field, to maximise your chance of winning. You can then create the system that best suits them. Had Trap been even a little more expansive and ambitious, we would have won that group at a canter, giving us a seeding going into the Euros. But instead he chose to be ultra negative, playing not one, but two holding midfielders, while ignoring creative talent like McCarthy, Hoolahan and Reid. It's nothing short of a joke, and saying "but they don't fit into his system" doesn't excuse it.

Likewise up front, where he has continued with Kevin Doyle, who has consistently under-performed for Ireland in the last 2-3 years. While Shane Long and Jonathon Walters, who are actually scoring goals for their clubs, are given only lip service. This blind loyalty is stupid.

Trap failed in 02 and 04 for Italy because he played a game of containment, even though he had far superior talents at his disposal than he currently has. You cant go to an international tournament and contain Spain, Italy or Croatia.

We might nick a point off Italy but i firmly believe we'll be tonked by Spain and Croatia.

And then people might see through this shirade. Quite frankly i'm embarrassed by the style of football we will display in Poland. We really will need the "luck of the Irish" to get anything from that group.

endabob1

People said the same things about Charlton, honestly it's like history repeating itself.

This is a results business, everything else is pi$$ in the wind.
Charlton - 3 major championships out of 5 attempts 1988-1996 1 play off (there were no play-offs in 1992 and only 8 team in the Euros)
McCarthy - 1 Major from 3 attempts 1998-2002 2 Play Offs
Kerr 0 from 2 2004-2006 0 Play Offs
Stan 0 from 1 2008 0 Play Offs
Trapp 1 from 2 2010-2012

McCarthy kept us competitive despite the disintegration of the Charlton era side, during that euro 96 campaign it was clear it was the end of an era. Mick kept us in the hunt, aided by a good batch of youngsters coming through from the Kerr underage sides and eventually got his reward by getting us to Japan/Korea

Kerr was a bit unlucky, in that when he took over we were already on the back foot, having lost in Russia and drawn at home to Switzerland, but he had no excuses for what happened in 2006. It was his team and they were mainly his underage lads, the points dropped home and away with Israel cost us direct qualification never mind the play-offs.
Stan was a disastrous joke

So Trapp came in had to rebuild after a disaster, like all intelligent managers he weighed up the squad and decided that if we're not on the same level as the big boys we need to be more organised than.
If you think he's so terrible as a manager, look at the players he has to work with, would any of them get in a top tier side, I mean the top half dozen countries in Eurpoe, Spain, Germany, Italy, France, Holland, England?
The answer is no, I would say at a push McGeady might be one teams would take a loo kat because he can pull a rabbit out of a hat, but when he was leaving Celtic, no top sides came in for him which I think is a good indication.
I love Given, I think he's a great keeper and there aren't many better than him in the EPL but Hart forced him out of the picture at City and again, none of the big boys came looking. The same for Dunne, Robbie Keane ended up going to LA, Duff ended up a Fulham. These are our best players and they are all with middle of the road sides, for a reason.
Our squad is not great, there are some bright rays for the future but to compete we have to be organised and disciplined, Trapp is a master at setting sides out that are difficult to beat, it's ingrained in the Italian psyche. I think he's perfect for us at the moment, an old school disciplinarian who picks players to fit his formation, not the other way around. When you're Barcelona you can give players free reign but when your best centre forwards are playing for LA Galaxy & are squad players in relegation sides, it's all about keeping your discipline and keeping to a set structure.

Will I Amnt

If we had world class players it would be no different.
It's not just the lack of quality players available,it's the managers and his dinosaur tactics.

endabob1

cambo2008 wrote: »

If we had world class players it would be no different.
It's not just the lack of quality players available,it's the managers and his dinosaur tactics.

Agreed, he might not be ideal if Messi, Ronaldo & Xavi all discovered long lost Irish Grannies, but for the limited resources we have, he's the ideal manager.

Rekop dog

Ireland move up another place in the world rankings to 19th. WP Trap!

craggles

I understand that no manager is beyond criticism, but the levels of anger and bile directed at a manager who has taken us to a tournament for the first time in 10 years simply because he has the neck to go against our rich history of attacking football is sick.

Will I Amnt

craggles wrote: »

I understand that no manager is beyond criticism, but the levels of anger and bile directed at a manager who has taken us to a tournament for the first time in 10 years simply because he has the neck to go against our rich history of attacking football is sick.

I don't see any anger and bile coming from anybody on here,there's plenty of debate and opinion over his tactics,that's what these fora are all about in fairness.
It would be a bit shìt if we all agreed on everything.

Personally I think we should be going out to play football at the best of our abilities with the best players to do that.
If we're beat,then so be it.

International football is not like club football in that you have lots of ego and rivalry issues to deal with,look at the players England can call on yet you give almost anybody a chance against them.
France have been getting some poor results over the last few years,same goes for Italy.To say there's no point trying to play football against these teams is foolish IMO.


The right mix of the system we currently play with the addition of some technically better players could see us get results.
Problem is we will never know because he won't even try then out in friendlies.

Wanders_fan

Rhys Essien wrote: »

We are going into a tournement where winning only matters......

1st off Technically thats not turn you could win the cup with out ever scoring a goal outside shootouts.Also our "best attacking player" is full time employed by a MLS team. That is nuts. We don't have a great squad. Trap is great i mean only thing i might say he try is playing 1 striker and a creative AMC in the hole like Wes Hoolahan or someone

After that people are getting crazy. Look at the 7 other teams in the PLayoffs
Portugal
Bosnia
Croatia
Italy
Czech
Estonia
Montenegro
5 maybe 6 of those are as good or better squads than Ireland and we did put 4 past estonia.They aren't great but they didn't just collect 10 tayto bags and send away for a playoff place.

Then look at the teams not in the Euro Playoff:
Wales
Bulgaria
Switzerland
Scotland
Norway
Serbia
Slovakia
Belgium


Look at that and tell me we don't punch above our weight.

LuckyLloyd

I love the whole "Trapp is a lucky manager" stuff. Really? The manager on the end of the two most horrific refeering injustices of the past decade (South Korea vs Italy 2002, Paris vs Ireland 2009) is lucky?

briany

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I love the whole "Trapp is a lucky manager" stuff. Really? The manager on the end of the two most horrific refeering injustices of the past decade (South Korea vs Italy 2002, Paris vs Ireland 2009) is lucky?

Well there were some results in the group that really favored Ireland's chances, particularly the two Armenian victories over Slovakia. Very few saw those results coming, particularly the second game and the wide goal margin that was involved. Maybe it goes in cycles and that was some karma for the past injustice but the point I'm making is that Ireland were helped as much by Slovakia's implosions versus Armenia as they were by their own graft in the group. Those results really knocked the wind out of Slovakia's sales and by the end game vs. Macedonia, they were pretty disinterested.

That said Charlton had some luck in his qualifying campaigns, relying on other results to see the team squeak through in '88 and '94 and those were remembered as great times for the Ireland team so I'd never let luck be a word with which to foster negativity but I'd try to keep a realistic perspective on the part it played.

Pro. F

Wanders_fan wrote: »

1st off Technically thats not turn you could win the cup with out ever scoring a goal outside shootouts.Also our "best attacking player" is full time employed by a MLS team. That is nuts. We don't have a great squad. Trap is great i mean only thing i might say he try is playing 1 striker and a creative AMC in the hole like Wes Hoolahan or someone

After that people are getting crazy. Look at the 7 other teams in the PLayoffs
Portugal
Bosnia
Croatia
Italy
Czech
Estonia
Montenegro
5 maybe 6 of those are as good or better squads than Ireland and we did put 4 past estonia.They aren't great but they didn't just collect 10 tayto bags and send away for a playoff place.

Then look at the teams not in the Euro Playoff:
Wales
Bulgaria
Switzerland
Scotland
Norway
Serbia
Slovakia
Belgium

Look at that and tell me we don't punch above our weight.

We don't punch above our weight. The quality of the players we have available compares favourably to any of those teams in the second list. We were in an easy enough group and our results were fine on the whole.

Trap's results are just about right I would say. They are results that merit him keeping his job, but they are nothing exceptional considering the players he has at his disposal.

Borat_Sagdiyev

grenache wrote: »

I'm a firm believer of putting out your best players on the field, to maximise your chance of winning. You can then create the system that best suits them.

This does not work. Class players does not automatically mean you'll have a class team. There are plenty of examples of teams not being able to gel despite having several top quality players ( England's failure to successfully incorporate Stevie G and Lampard in the same team being one ).

It's about building a TEAM - if you have to leave out better players for the greater good of having an overall better or more solid team, then that's what you should do.

grenache wrote: »

Had Trap been even a little more expansive and ambitious, we would have won that group at a canter, giving us a seeding going into the Euros. But instead he chose to be ultra negative, playing not one, but two holding midfielders, while ignoring creative talent like McCarthy, Hoolahan and Reid. It's nothing short of a joke, and saying "but they don't fit into his system" doesn't excuse it.

You're working off very simplistic logic. You're saying the following :

a) We achieved qualification
b) We did it with players of a certain quality on the pitch
c) We left out players of higher quality
d) Therefore, if we had played the players of higher quality in the first place, we not only would have gotten the results we got, but we would have gotten better results.

This sort of logic is not accurate and does not work!

Leiva

19th in the World !


3 behind France


1 Spain 1561 0 Equal
2 Netherlands 1379 1 Up
3 Germany 1332 -1 Down
4 Uruguay 1289 0 Equal
5 Brazil 1157 2 Up
6 England 1121 -1 Down
7 Portugal 1106 -1 Down
8 Argentina 1102 3 Up
9 Italy 1062 -1 Down
10 Croatia 1049 -1 Down
11 Denmark 1025 -1 Down
12 Russia 1003 1 Up
13 Greece 953 1 Up
14 Chile 950 -2 Down
15 Côte d'Ivoire 944 0 Equal
16 France 938 1 Up
17 Sweden 926 1 Up
18 Switzerland 891 -2 Down
19 Republic of Ireland 872 1 Up
20 Australia 868 2 Up
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina 850 -2 Down
22 Mexico 849 -1 Down
23 Ghana 820 0 Equal
24 Norway 797 0 Equal
25 Paraguay 791 2 Up
26 Serbia 779 -1 Down
27 USA 772 4 Up
28 Slovenia 765 -1 Down
29 Czech Republic 762 0 Equal
30 Korea Republic 751 4 Up




/close thread.

eire4

mixednuts wrote: »

19th in the World !


3 behind France


1 Spain 1561 0 Equal
2 Netherlands 1379 1 Up
3 Germany 1332 -1 Down
4 Uruguay 1289 0 Equal
5 Brazil 1157 2 Up
6 England 1121 -1 Down
7 Portugal 1106 -1 Down
8 Argentina 1102 3 Up
9 Italy 1062 -1 Down
10 Croatia 1049 -1 Down
11 Denmark 1025 -1 Down
12 Russia 1003 1 Up
13 Greece 953 1 Up
14 Chile 950 -2 Down
15 Côte d'Ivoire 944 0 Equal
16 France 938 1 Up
17 Sweden 926 1 Up
18 Switzerland 891 -2 Down
19 Republic of Ireland 872 1 Up
20 Australia 868 2 Up
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina 850 -2 Down
22 Mexico 849 -1 Down
23 Ghana 820 0 Equal
24 Norway 797 0 Equal
25 Paraguay 791 2 Up
26 Serbia 779 -1 Down
27 USA 772 4 Up
28 Slovenia 765 -1 Down
29 Czech Republic 762 0 Equal
30 Korea Republic 751 4 Up




What is the highest Ireland has ever been ranked in the FIFA rankings?

Corholio

eire4 wrote: »

mixednuts wrote: »

19th in the World !


3 behind France


1 Spain 1561 0 Equal
2 Netherlands 1379 1 Up
3 Germany 1332 -1 Down
4 Uruguay 1289 0 Equal
5 Brazil 1157 2 Up
6 England 1121 -1 Down
7 Portugal 1106 -1 Down
8 Argentina 1102 3 Up
9 Italy 1062 -1 Down
10 Croatia 1049 -1 Down
11 Denmark 1025 -1 Down
12 Russia 1003 1 Up
13 Greece 953 1 Up
14 Chile 950 -2 Down
15 Côte d'Ivoire 944 0 Equal
16 France 938 1 Up
17 Sweden 926 1 Up
18 Switzerland 891 -2 Down
19 Republic of Ireland 872 1 Up
20 Australia 868 2 Up
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina 850 -2 Down
22 Mexico 849 -1 Down
23 Ghana 820 0 Equal
24 Norway 797 0 Equal
25 Paraguay 791 2 Up
26 Serbia 779 -1 Down
27 USA 772 4 Up
28 Slovenia 765 -1 Down
29 Czech Republic 762 0 Equal
30 Korea Republic 751 4 Up




What is the highest Ireland has ever been ranked in the FIFA rankings?

World rankings are no barometer at all IMO. Look at Portugal in 7th and Denmark in 11th.

Leiva

Highest = 6th in 1993

EdenHazard

Corholio wrote: »

eire4 wrote: »

World rankings are no barometer at all IMO. Look at Portugal in 7th and Denmark in 11th.

Denmark finished above Portugal in top spot in Euro qualification. The rankings don't take into account assumed strength of teams on paper.

Will I Amnt

Just on that list.
We played 15 games under Trappatoni involving the teams ranked in the top 30 including both competitive and friendly.
W 2 - D 7 - L 6
The 2 wins were Italy and Paraguay,both friendlies.

It begs the question how the f**k we end up 19th in the world.
It's a flawed ranking system and pointless to use it to argue anything.

Leiva

cambo2008 wrote: »

Just on that list.
We played 15 games under Trappatoni involving the teams ranked in the top 30 including both competitive and friendly.
W 2 - D 7 - L 6
The 2 wins were Italy and Paraguay,both friendlies.

It begs the question how the f**k we end up 19th in the world.
It's a flawed ranking system and pointless to use it to argue anything.

As long as we keep climbing that table then we are making progress .

We are limited - yes maybe better selection of squad is an issue , but if we put our best eleven available out we still fall way short , so it's not pretty , it's not exciting but I'm 100% behind Trap as long as we keep moving in the current direction.

Will I Amnt

mixednuts wrote: »

As long as we keep climbing that table then we are making progress .

We are limited - yes maybe better selection of squad is an issue , but if we put our best eleven available out we still fall way short , so it's not pretty , it's not exciting but I'm 100% behind Trap as long as we keep moving in the current direction.

Well I'm behind whoever it is that's in charge,doesn't mean that I can't want for some change or disagree with his decisions and selections.

I'm of the opinion we could be a bit better if allowed to play.
Being defensively sound and disciplined shouldn't be exclusive to being clever and creative in possession.
There's a harmony there that if perfected could see us at least compete against the so called better teams.

recylingbin

gosplan wrote: »

Are you basically saying that Trapp's a conservative manager and picks up a lot of draws?

:eek:

No way!!

I think he's saying that managers that manage better teams than us have a better win % because Trapp is a poor manager, not because they manage better teams than us.

plasmaguy

mixednuts wrote: »

Highest = 6th in 1993

I think you will find the higher we are in the ratings, the more critics there are of the manager, as there were in Charlton's time.

Charlton raised the bar and suddenly everyone was an expert on soccer and questioning Charlton's methods.

I just about remember the pre Charlton era. Ireland was a bit of a joke, we'd never qualified for any tournament and there was no expectation we ever would. We were unlucky yes before Charlton in some qualifications, but at the same time we were renouned for moral victories alone. We punched at our level pre Charlton, which was the same level as Wales, Northern Ireland and small countries. Even Scotland were better than us mostly.

Our three most successful managers have also been the three most slated and criticised.

You just can't please some people who always look for negatives.

Trap is a cautious manager mostly.

If we failed to qualify for the Euros I would be the first to say he should go. But he got us there, luck or no luck, and he deserves as much credit for that as the players, since at the end of the day he picked the players.

If it was left to Giles and Dunphy to pick the team, you'd have Andy Reid in there, and a load more fancy players, who couldn't defend to save their lives.

Trap's methods have been successful and that's all that counts.

Lots of nice teams failed to qualify, such as Wales who have players to rival ours.

EdenHazard

Like Pro F said Trap has Ireland performing at a level that's just right, competing for second spot every campaign, hard to beat, not particularly amazing but getting results that match the squad he has.

briany

plasmaguy wrote: »

Our three most successful managers have also been the three most slated and criticised.

I think the most sparks flew in criticism of those three because they have their supporters also, therefore we remember their criticism and the debates caused . Stan was slated for much of his tenure and by the majority of the Ireland fan base who agreed that he wasn't up to the task and hadn't achieved. Stan actually had more harsh criticism crammed into his 1 3/4 years then the previous three managers had to face in their entire tenures or at least it feels that way but it was entirely warranted.

Wanders_fan

Pro. F wrote: »

We don't punch above our weight. The quality of the players we have available compares favourably to any of those teams in the second list. We were in an easy enough group and our results were fine on the whole.

Trap's results are just about right I would say. They are results that merit him keeping his job, but they are nothing exceptional considering the players he has at his disposal.

Then look at the teams not in the Euro Playoff:

Wales-Gareth Bale,James Collins,Jason Koumas,Aaron Ramsey,Joe Ledley,Simon Davies,Craig Bellamy,Wayne Hennessey(I think a better team)

Bulgaria-Stiliynan and Martin Petrov, Dimitar Rangelov,Valeri Bojinov,Stanislav Manolev (maybe not better but i'm not betting against team Vs us

Switzerland-P. Senderos, Johan Djourou, Valon Behrami, Xherdan Shaqiri, Eren Derdiyok, Alex Frei, Marco Streller, Gökhan INLER, In terms of talent streets ahead of us

Scotland- Phil Bardsley,Charlie Adam, Scott Brown,Darren Fletcher, James Morrison, James McFadden, Stephen Fletcher Better Midfield probably on a Par

Norway-Morten Gamst Pedersen, J.A. Riise, Brede Hangeland This would be one of the teams i counted as weaker than us

Serbia-Nikola Zigic,Milos Krasic,Aleksandar Kolarov,Branislav Ivanovic,Zdravko Kuzmanovic.Milan Jovanovic We'd struggle to beat them

Slovakia-Martin Skrtel,Vladimir Weiss,Marek Hamsik,Miroslav StochWorse than us to be fair

Belgium-Thibault Courtois,Daniel Van Buyten,Vincent Kompany,Thomas Vermaelen,Marouane Fellaini , Eden Hazard,Moussa Dembele, Dries Mertens Again way better squad in my opinion


Look at that and tell me we don't punch above our weight.






Feel free to point out where we stack up favourably against any of these teams very few are clear cut