Trappatoni Win% Record

EdenHazard

Some good points but doesn't hint to me of us punching above our weight in terms of current squad. In general we do, but like I said we actually produce these players to punch above our weight, so as a country we do but as a football team given the resources we have we perform at a level we should be at, i.e fighting for second spot/dissapointment if we finish third.

Wales have a standout player in Bale, but overall the Irish team just overall has greater quality. McGeady, Dunne, Long, Keane, Doyle, Given, Coleman, McCarthy, Whelan, Duff etc. on paper to me looks stronger than them. As well as the fact our team much more experienced so just has more than Wales, however they producing players who Ireland aren't so in 5 years time it might be different. Ireland still has the remnants of it's golden generation(dunne given keane duff) once they're gone, Ireland might struggle.

Out of those teams, Switzerland and Belgium would be better, but Switzerland normally qualify and Belgium is a youthful team, they currently would struggle against Ireland, if we were in a group I'd be confident of finishing above them. Ireland is just a muddle with a lot of teams, difference is we're much harder to beat than some of the teams on that list.

ronsgonawin

Giovanni Trapattoni
Ireland Ireland May 2008 Present 42 19 15 8 43.24 %

Andre Villas Boas

Chelsea 22 June 2011 4 March 2012 40 19 11 10

47.50

Trapattoni has a worse record than a person who could not get a team to play for him.

EdenHazard

Ha like has been said Trapattoni has done ok with Ireland, nothing more. Perhaps as a negative he could be stunting long term success but who knows.

plasmaguy

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Giovanni Trapattoni
Ireland Ireland May 2008 Present 42 19 15 8 43.24 %

Andre Villas Boas

Chelsea 22 June 2011 4 March 2012 40 19 11 10

47.50

Trapattoni has a worse record than a person who could not get a team to play for him.

This is frankly ridiculous!

AVB has a player pool at his disposal worth as much as 500 million euro or not far off it.

The entire player pool available to Trap would be lucky to be worth 40 million in total.

You cannot buy success at international level like you sometimes can at club level.

If I was manager of Chelsea, I'd have a win ratio as good as AVB, probably better, and so would most people on this forum.

The resources and talent available to a country like Spain, German, France and Italy far far outweigh what Trap has to work with. To expect him to be as good as these countries is nonsense to be honest.

veXual

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Trapattoni has a worse record than a person who could not get a team to play for him.

And your point is.......

Trapattoni's objective was to get Ireland to a major Tournament - Check

AVB's objective was most likely to win the Premier League - Fail

But sure while we're throwing out random statistics - did you know 73.79% of statistics are made up on the spot?

plasmaguy

EdenHazard wrote: »

Ha like has been said Trapattoni has done ok with Ireland, nothing more. Perhaps as a negative he could be stunting long term success but who knows.

That's a fair assessment.

I'd agree the Euro Group was as much a gimme as could be expected at international level, it certainly wasn't a group of death, or as hard as for example as Ireland's group in the 2002 WC qualifying campaign, or some of Kerr's campaigns.

I think possibly the greatest achievement of an Irish manager was McCarthy's in getting us to WC 2002, and also getting us out of the group and pushing Spain to penalties. I know people will say if only this and that, but still it was probably a better achievement than Trap's qualification.

veXual

EdenHazard wrote: »

Perhaps as a negative he could be stunting long term success but who knows.

How??

You'll probably say becasue McClean isn't going to get a chance in the Euro's? After this tournament I'd imagine we'll have a few players retire from internationals. The young guys then have two years to prove themselves prior to the next major tournament, doubt that there'll be too much stunting there.

plasmaguy

veXual wrote: »

How??

You'll probably say becasue McClean isn't going to get a chance in the Euro's? After this tournament I'd imagine we'll have a few players retire from internationals. The young guys then have two years to prove themselves prior to the next major tournament, doubt that there'll be too much stunting there.

+1

I think Duff definitely will retire.

Probables also are Dunne, O'Shea, and Robbie Keane, if he is living in the States. They will say something like they want to let a younger generation to play.

Anyone who is prone to injuries will retire, so maybe also Given too.

Pro. F

Wanders_fan wrote: »

Then look at the teams not in the Euro Playoff:

Wales-Gareth Bale,James Collins,Jason Koumas,Aaron Ramsey,Joe Ledley,Simon Davies,Craig Bellamy,Wayne Hennessey(I think a better team)

Bulgaria-Stiliynan and Martin Petrov, Dimitar Rangelov,Valeri Bojinov,Stanislav Manolev (maybe not better but i'm not betting against team Vs us

Switzerland-P. Senderos, Johan Djourou, Valon Behrami, Xherdan Shaqiri, Eren Derdiyok, Alex Frei, Marco Streller, Gökhan INLER, In terms of talent streets ahead of us

Scotland- Phil Bardsley,Charlie Adam, Scott Brown,Darren Fletcher, James Morrison, James McFadden, Stephen Fletcher Better Midfield probably on a Par

Norway-Morten Gamst Pedersen, J.A. Riise, Brede Hangeland This would be one of the teams i counted as weaker than us

Serbia-Nikola Zigic,Milos Krasic,Aleksandar Kolarov,Branislav Ivanovic,Zdravko Kuzmanovic.Milan Jovanovic We'd struggle to beat them

Slovakia-Martin Skrtel,Vladimir Weiss,Marek Hamsik,Miroslav StochWorse than us to be fair

Belgium-Thibault Courtois,Daniel Van Buyten,Vincent Kompany,Thomas Vermaelen,Marouane Fellaini , Eden Hazard,Moussa Dembele, Dries Mertens Again way better squad in my opinion


Look at that and tell me we don't punch above our weight.


Feel free to point out where we stack up favourably against any of these teams very few are clear cut

Ireland: Given, Dunne, St Ledger, JOS, S Reid, McCarthy, Hoolihan, Duff, McClean, McGeady, Keane, Long, Walters Good options all over the park; some real quality in goal and up front; and really good depth in strikers and wingers

Not a chance do Wales or Bulgaria have better player pools than us, nor are Scotland on a par.

I would say we have a better selection available than Wales, Bulgaria, Scotland, Norway and Slovakia, but not as good as Switzerland (just and maybe), Serbia (who self-destructed for off the pitch reasons) or Belgium.

Slovakia, a team that you agree are weaker than us, were in our group so that is critical. Not all groups are created equal so the fact that some other teams didn't qualify proves nothing. It requires such vicarious comparisons - who did they play and who did we play and which is the better opposition and and how did the rest of the group work out - as to be pointless. We haven't been playing teams who are better than us often enough to prove that we are punching above our weight. We have qualified from a group where our competitors for second place were clearly weaker than us in terms of player pools and we then had the easiest imaginable play-off. It's nice to qualify, but let's not get carried away.

grenache

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

This does not work. Class players does not automatically mean you'll have a class team. There are plenty of examples of teams not being able to gel despite having several top quality players ( England's failure to successfully incorporate Stevie G and Lampard in the same team being one ).

It's about building a TEAM - if you have to leave out better players for the greater good of having an overall better or more solid team, then that's what you should do.

You're working off very simplistic logic. You're saying the following :

a) We achieved qualification
b) We did it with players of a certain quality on the pitch
c) We left out players of higher quality
d) Therefore, if we had played the players of higher quality in the first place, we not only would have gotten the results we got, but we would have gotten better results.

This sort of logic is not accurate and does not work!

But with respect, how can anyone claim it does not work if Trapattoni has never even paired the creative players together in the same starting 11? That logic may not always work, but I'm sure there are plenty of situations where it does.

What is true for England is not necessarily true for other teams. What irks fans the most is Trap's total and utter refusal to try anything new or even remotely creative.
Just like Kidney in the rugby, there are certain individuals who no matter how ordinary or poor they perform for the national side or their clubs, will always get picked by Trap. Glen Whelan makes the subs bench more than he does Stoke's starting 11, but there's always a place for him in Giovanni's heart. Pilkington and Hoolahan have been two of the PL's outstanding players this season, so much so that they can't even get a call up to the Irish squad. It is in no way right. Ireland do not have the strength in numbers to ignore such talent.

ronsgonawin

veXual wrote: »

EdenHazard wrote: »

Perhaps as a negative he could be stunting long term success but who knows.

How??

You'll probably say becasue McClean isn't going to get a chance in the Euro's? After this tournament I'd imagine we'll have a few players retire from internationals. The young guys then have two years to prove themselves prior to the next major tournament, doubt that there'll be too much stunting there.

It's this kind of statement that makes me believe you have not seen one of Irelands games in the time trap has been Irelands manager.

clubberlang12

veXual wrote: »

How??

You'll probably say becasue McClean isn't going to get a chance in the Euro's? After this tournament I'd imagine we'll have a few players retire from internationals. The young guys then have two years to prove themselves prior to the next major tournament, doubt that there'll be too much stunting there.

The young guys have a little over two years till the next major tournament after the Euro's. Doesn't mean they'll be participating in it. A failure to start off our WC'14 group on the front foot will have a huge negative chance on us going to Brazil. Lets face it, barring a complete meltdown or miracle of some kind. Germany will top the group. That leaves second place to fight for and to finish in the top eight runners up out of the nine groups. Considering our group consists of Germany, Sweden and Austria, i don't think even finishing runner up will secure one of those play-off places. If we get 1 point off Germany we will be doing good in my opinion. I think the Sweden and Austria games will be very tight. Faroe Island's and Kazakhstan should be games we win but as the result against the bottom team gets voided to calculate the top 8 runner's up, this means we might realisitically, if second, have a small points number.

Now back to the point in hand. We have an ageing team. Given, Dunne, Andrews, Duff and Keane are not getting any younger. We go straight from a tough Euro's into a hard WC qualifying group. We are away first to Kazakhstan, home to Germany and then two away games to the Faroe Islands and Sweden. In truth, we could be playing catch up from the very early stages of this group. My issue is that Trap has being so dedicated to 13-14 players that many in the squad and future squads have so little international experience. We don't know who will stay on after the Euro's or who's bodies will be able for another tough qualifying group lasting nearly two years. With these younger players certain to get no experience at this level before the Euro's let alone at the Euro's we have stunted not only their progression but also the teams progressing in the following qualifying campaign.

plasmaguy

It's all well and good having creative players in the middle of the park, but we really cannot afford to have someone in there who is just a luxury and can't tackle, track back, head, and run like a lunatic for 90 minutes. As a manager you need to know what you are going to get from a player.

To be honest, I think Trap is right to stick with experienced players.

Young players like Coleman and McClean are good, but they don't have the international experience and young players are prone to doing stupid things at the wrong time, not tracking back when they should and so on.

clubberlang12

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's all well and good having creative players in the middle of the park, but we really cannot afford to have someone in there who is just a luxury and can't tackle, track back, head, and run like a lunatic for 90 minutes. As a manager you need to know what you are going to get from a player.

To be honest, I think Trap is right to stick with experienced players.

Young players like Coleman and McClean are good, but they don't have the international experience and young players are prone to doing stupid things at the wrong time, not tracking back when they should and so on.

They don't have the international experience because they don't get game time. I'm not saying they should start every game and play every minute, but they need some game time to gain experience. They get none to very little with Trap. That is fact.

And this tosh about not tracking back or working hard is, sorry to say bud, ridiculous. Have you watched Coleman play? He gives 110% and is up and down that line defending and getting forward to assist in attack. From what i seen McClean does similar for Sunderland. They play in the premiership and get instructions every game so i do not believe for one moment that they couldn't follow Traps instructions. Plenty of the older players have made mistakes so i don't see how you can claim it is merely a trait for younger players.

And i stated nothing about style of play or creative players in my post. Quite clearly my issue was Trap giving what could prove to be post Euro'12 first teamers enough experience at this level considering the group that awaits us after the Euro's.

plasmaguy

Both Coleman and McClean are at their best as wide players and running down the wings.

Putting McClean in centre of midfield would be stupid, but since when did Trap's critics lack stupidity. It's the kind of move someone like Dunphy would advocate, putting creative wide players in the centre of midfield.

Centre of midfield and wide midfield are two completely different positions. Wide midfielders are expected to go down the wings, run at wing backs and so on, and they are usually players of smaller physique.

We tried lots of creative players in center midfield under Stauntan and Kerr and the results ranged from mixed to sh*t.

Trap got us qualified, again I think this needs to be repeated for all those who want to go back to a more open style of play that we had under the likes of Staunton and Kerr, or Giles if you want to back further. It's aresults driven business. I'm looking forward to the Euros and seeing Ireland playing there. A lot of people in Wales, Scotland and so on, are indoubtedly envious of our position and the manager we have.

clubberlang12

Why are you going on about McClean or Coleman in central midfield? I've certainly not mentioned that! My point is plain and simple. We have a team that is getting older and the main components and performers on that team are all on the wrong side of 30. Should we get to WC'14 they will be another two years older. So far Trap has failed to, in my opinion, give enough experience to players that will no doubt be part of the next generation of an Irish national team.

I too, of course, look forward to Ireland at the Euro's and will be standing on a seat roaring them on, but posters here need to stop answering every post here with "Trap has got us to the Euro's............ye have no right to question him in any regard". Part of Traps agenda should also be with one eye on the nest qualifying campaign that he has being very well paid to guide us through. Perhaps i am completely wrong in my assessment but i think it is critical considering the proximity of the WC qualifiers so soon after the Euro's.

Edit: Typed Duff instead of Coleman originally.

steelcityblues

I suppose it does not help when the manager comes from a country who does not value wingers or attacking players in general.

His favourite, McGeady, always seems to play like an additional central midfielder for Ireland, which of course has been highly frustrating at times.

Any time Hunt has been brought on, he plays more like a typical winger, though I am not saying he's the greatest either. He seems to be turned off by this type of player, and it won't change.

plasmaguy

Trap has taken the not incorrect decision in my view to go out and win every friendly as opposed to just trying out new players, as winning friendlies against top ranked sides is good for our rankings.

So beating Italy in a friendly was important and is important to put out a competitive side.

He's already said McCLean, Coleman, etc are ones for the future. It's a brave decision but possibly the right one.

I don't think McClean or Coleman have anything to offer for the Euros.

There is a massive difference between playing for Sunderland in the EPL against the likes of Stoke, West Brom and Everton, and playing for Ireland against the likes of Spain and Italy, absolutely massive, and for some reason people keep forgetting this.

It's one thing trying to beat Phil Neville. It's another trying to beat Puyol, Inniesta or Pique.

clubberlang12

I'm well aware of his reasons for fielding strong sides in friendlies. Although i think it is a slightly flawed reason. This is because we have already being drawn in our WC qualifying group. The next time our seeding will have a bearing on being drawn in qualifying is in when the draw for the 2016 Euro's takes place. Our performances in this summer's Euro's and the our WC qualifiers will have a far greater affect on our ranking as competitive games are worth a minimum 2.5 times the points that a friendly is worth. Therefore, with our place assured in this summers Euro's and the WC group drawn it is of no major benefit, ranking wise, to be deploying what Trap calls a competitive side. The only benefit is to reinforce the structure of the team and everyone's role in the team. To suggest giving some of the younger's some actual experience at this level on the pitch is somehow hazardous is foolish and quite naive.

As i said earlier, i'm not calling for these players to go to the Euro's, although i think they should, i am quite clearly stating that by denying them some experience at this level, that we are possibly hindering our qualifying chances for 2014.

There is a massive difference between playing for Sunderland in the EPL against the likes of Stoke, West Brom and Everton, and playing for Ireland against the likes of Spain and Italy, absolutely massive, and for some reason people keep forgetting this.

I would argue that there is also a difference between playing for your team nearly week in, week out in the Premiership and not being able to get in the first 11 of your team that plays in the Premiership.

gnfnrhead

plasmaguy wrote: »

There is a massive difference between playing for Sunderland in the EPL against the likes of Stoke, West Brom and Everton, and playing for Ireland against the likes of Spain and Italy, absolutely massive, and for some reason people keep forgetting this.

It's one thing trying to beat Phil Neville. It's another trying to beat Puyol, Inniesta or Pique.

What was wrong with saying Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham? Why did you only pick lower mid table teams for your point? Because it makes your weak argument look better? He's playing in one of the top leagues in the world. You can't possibly hold that against him in any way, shape or form no matter how hard you try.

I'm not saying he should be on the plane, but he should have at least been considered along with the other young players that have already been mentioned. Trap has rarely done that. What happens if we get injuries? We either have to go with players who have hardly played due to Trap's stubbornness, or we have to with the likes of Green and McShane who are clearly not good enough. Friendlies count for very little at this point in time. The whole point of them is to try out a few new players just in case, not play the exact same team and show no forward planning.

Will I Amnt

plasmaguy wrote: »

There is a massive difference between playing for Sunderland in the EPL against the likes of Stoke, West Brom and Everton, and playing for Ireland against the likes of Spain and Italy, absolutely massive, and for some reason people keep forgetting this.

It's one thing trying to beat Phil Neville. It's another trying to beat Puyol, Inniesta or Pique.

Damien Duff plays against the likes of Stoke, West Brom and Everton.
Aiden McGeady plays in an inferior league to both McClean and Coleman.

Your point makes absolutely no sense.

plasmaguy

gnfnrhead wrote: »

What was wrong with saying Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham? Why did you only pick lower mid table teams for your point? Because it makes your weak argument look better? He's playing in one of the top leagues in the world. You can't possibly hold that against him in any way, shape or form no matter how hard you try.

I'm not saying he should be on the plane, but he should have at least been considered along with the other young players that have already been mentioned. Trap has rarely done that. What happens if we get injuries? We either have to go with players who have hardly played due to Trap's stubbornness, or we have to with the likes of Green and McShane who are clearly not good enough. Friendlies count for very little at this point in time. The whole point of them is to try out a few new players just in case, not play the exact same team and show no forward planning.

Fair point about the higher up teams in the EPL.

Bringing someone like McClean to the Euros would be a bit of a gamble, not because of his club form (although I still say there is a big difference between EPL level and playing the likes of Spain and Italy), but because really, he's inexperienced internationally, and one or two friendlies would not increase that experience much.

He'd be making his first competitive (non friendly) start for Ireland in the Euros, and that is a big ask to be honest and a bit of a risk. Trap normally doesn't do risks and doesn't do things to upset the status quo. He probably likes a settled team and a settled squad, and that's why I like Trap, over some of his critics, who let's be fair would throw in every flavour of the month every game.

McClean is one for the future, and bringing him to the Euros would be a risk which could work, but then again might not work. And as I said, knowing how someone does in a friendly with nothing at stake and how they do in the heat of battle of a Euro Group game, are different.

Again, I'm going to trust Trap's judgement and years of experience on this one.

But I am looking forward to McClean being integral to the WC 2014 qualifying squad.

Final point I will make is that some people are ludicrously questioning Trapatoni's abilities as a manager. I'd ask where these people have managed and for how long and what level? They also seem to question Trap's motivations and agenda. Trap has no motivation or agenda other than to do well for Ireland, unlike some of his critics who have the same agenda for the last 30 years, not to do the best for the Irish team, but to stick the boot into every Irish manager there has ever been. Trap aint dumb. If he thought McClean would help us qualify from the Euro group, he'd bring him. But clearly he doesn't believe that, and so far, he's shown a good awareness of when players are ready for the step up to international level and when they aren't. Simply put, McClean isn't ready yet for that step up, and giving him his debut against the likes of Spain or Italy in two of the most important games in our history, is frankly wrong on so many levels.

Will I Amnt

plasmaguy wrote: »

Bringing someone like McClean to the Euros would be a bit of a gamble, not because of his club form (although I still say there is a big difference between EPL level and playing the likes of Spain and Italy), but because really, he's inexperienced internationally, and one or two friendlies would not increase that experience much.

It's all football,I hate the idea that international football is somehow a completely different game.
It wasn't long ago he was playing LOI and he made the step up from that fairly seamlessly.

EdenHazard

Yeah where does that come from? especially with the whole ''international football is inferior to club football'' thinking is so in now.

plasmaguy

EdenHazard wrote: »

Yeah where does that come from? especially with the whole ''international football is inferior to club football'' thinking is so in now.

When did that thinking come in?

It's certainly a different kettle of fish, club teams and managers work together 10 months of the year, international players and managers, a few weeks at most.

Virtually every international game is win or bust these days. With a long club league campaign, you can always make up lost ground later in the season, but internationally you have to beat the weaker teams and do well against the top teams, so every game is vital.

I would agree that some international teams are weaker than the average EPL teams, the likes of Cyprus, Iceland, and weaker teams like that. But Spain, Italy and Croatia would not be weaker than the average premier league side.

If we had upcoming competitieve games against Cyprus, Faroe Islands and so on, I'd all be for sticking McLean in to see what he can do, as we'd win anyways.

But against Spain, Italy and Croatia in his first non friendly matches, too much of a gamble to be honest, seeing as already have plenty of experienced internationals in those wide positions.

Pro. F

plasmaguy wrote: »

We tried lots of creative players in center midfield under Stauntan and Kerr and the results ranged from mixed to sh*t.

Using the Staunton era as a evidence for anything related to tactics or player selection is the most retarded argument possible. People who use this type of cretinous argument shouldn't be allowed access to the internet.

plasmaguy

Pro. F wrote: »

Using the Staunton era as a evidence for anything related to tactics or player selection is the most retarded argument possible. People who use this type of cretinous argument shouldn't be allowed access to the internet.

Ignored.

Borat_Sagdiyev

grenache wrote: »

But with respect, how can anyone claim it does not work if Trapattoni has never even paired the creative players together in the same starting 11? That logic may not always work, but I'm sure there are plenty of situations where it does.

I'm not looking to start some stupid fight here, I'm disagreeing with you and backing up my points, if you give me enough proof, then I may change my mind, but I reserve the right to stick stubbornly to my opinion in the face of all facts

grenache wrote: »

What is true for England is not necessarily true for other teams. What irks fans the most is Trap's total and utter refusal to try anything new or even remotely creative.
Just like Kidney in the rugby, there are certain individuals who no matter how ordinary or poor they perform for the national side or their clubs, will always get picked by Trap. Glen Whelan makes the subs bench more than he does Stoke's starting 11, but there's always a place for him in Giovanni's heart. Pilkington and Hoolahan have been two of the PL's outstanding players this season, so much so that they can't even get a call up to the Irish squad. It is in no way right. Ireland do not have the strength in numbers to ignore such talent.

OK, Trap doesn't try new things. This is fair enough. I can accept this if it produces results - it has so far, we have qualified for a tournament for the first time in a long time. It is an achievement - we're not getting carried away, we'll look forward to a summer of watching our national side for a change instead of just watching England hoping they lose Credit where credit is due though, qualification has been secured. This is a plus, no matter what way you dress it up. Others who say "oh but my granny would have gotten us qualified" are not giving enough credit.

In my opinion, picking a certain set of core individuals and sticking with them and backing them ahead of perceived "better" players gives lots of positives that are not necessarily immediately seen. The selected players are more confident, team spirit is higher, they are a "closer" team and would run through brick walls for each other etc...

If you keep trying new combinations out, then this has a negative effect. You can't throw every flavour of the month that comes along into the mix - it negatively affects continuity.

The Andy Reid thing was a big point in Trap's management - it was a message to all the rest: Behave or you're out. He made an example of him and that was that. This is good - the players are disciplined and know not to test Trap.

I'm hoping that after this summer, the likes of the players you mention will get a run out. They need to show that they are committed to the Irish national side first - opting to play for Ireland just because they can't get their game with England is not good enough ( not saying that the players you mentioned are doing this, just as a rule in general is all ).

briany

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

In my opinion, picking a certain set of core individuals and sticking with them and backing them ahead of perceived "better" players gives lots of positives that are not necessarily immediately seen. The selected players are more confident, team spirit is higher, they are a "closer" team and would run through brick walls for each other etc...

If you keep trying new combinations out, then this has a negative effect. You can't throw every flavour of the month that comes along into the mix - it negatively affects continuity.

The Andy Reid thing was a big point in Trap's management - it was a message to all the rest: Behave or you're out. He made an example of him and that was that. This is good - the players are disciplined and know not to test Trap.

I'm hoping that after this summer, the likes of the players you mention will get a run out. They need to show that they are committed to the Irish national side first - opting to play for Ireland just because they can't get their game with England is not good enough ( not saying that the players you mentioned are doing this, just as a rule in general is all ).

I always think the same when people are stating the case for bringing a certain player in. I don't believe that Trap is as stubborn as some say but rather that he is pragmatic about managing a certain type of team ethic and spirit which is brought about a familiarity between the players and strengthened with good results. He will have to bring in some new faces during the WCQs because he'll be left with little option if retirements in key positions become a reality. Given, Keane, Duff and Dunne will all stay as long as they're needed, or as long as their bodies allow but unless their egos don't allow, they will begin to step aside to give space for whatever emerging talents are coming through.

To be fair to many of the recent Ireland opters, the ones from N.I. and Scotland, they do get a pretty hard time over their decision to do so, so I think that decision is not an easy one to come by. I always say, though, that I believe the decision as it currently stands is motivated primarily by probability of playing in a successful team but it is, in the case of Northern Irish players, also informed by nationhood so I don't think there's much danger of them not being committed to the team. The reason they won't get much game time yet is just because of Trap's idea of how his team should be.

gosplan

Wow, are people now having a go at Trap for not building enough for future - the '14 tournament and on?

That's pretty special.

clubberlang12

gosplan wrote: »

Wow, are people now having a go at Trap for not building enough for future - the '14 tournament and on?

That's pretty special.

So you're not slightly worried heading straight into a tough WC qualifying group right after the Euro's with the core of our squad very much on the wrong side of 30 and no real experience given to the younger players who more than likely will play a large part in that campaign? Hardly "special" to be concerned about that.

plasmaguy

Trap usually comes good, during qualifying campaigns, and the good thing about Trap is, you can depend on him, that's why he's a great and consistant manager in my view, if also a bit lucky at times, sometimes doesn't seem to know what he's doing, other times, the football is poor, but ultimately, there is absolutely no-one in world football who would do a better job, Lippi or Cappello included. He always comes good when it matters and we are blessed in many ways to have him.

I think people underestimate Trap's coaching abilities with players, and you can see over the course of 3 years, that players who might be poor at EPL level, play above themselves for Ireland, and that's no coincidence, and much of that I would say is down to his influence and coaching.

McClean will come good too for Ireland, but the problem is, Trap has little time to work with him before the Euros. When Trap tells someone like Andrews to do something, Andews knows what to do, because he's done it hundreds of times before. If Trap was to tell McClean to do something, it's possible McClean wouldn't really know.

I reckon we will do well in the 2014 qualifying and certainly get a top two position. My only concern is Trap won't wait around for 2016.

kitakyushu

Rhys Essien wrote: »

For those who say that he got us to Euro2012, I think my grandmother would have got us qualified.

Pity your granny wasn't managing us 2002-2010 in that case.

Regarding win % I think it's a minor criticism. If we win Euro 2012 with 6x draws we'll have a win% of zero but I'll be quite happy with that and so will everyone else following Ireland.

Further on the balance of our play to date under Trap I'd say 43% wins is almost flattering rather than deserved. You might want a higher win% but there's been little evidence to suggest we actually deserve it or could achieve it playing some other way.

G.K.

Hennesey - Gunter, Williams, Blake, Taylor - Ramsey, Vaughan, Allen - Bale, Bellamy - Morison

With Myhill, Collins, Ricketts, Ledley, Collison, Crofts, Vokes, Edwards, King, Church, Robson-Kanu, Gabbidon, Earnshaw as backup.

I may have bias being Welsh but I think we have a better starting XI than you's.

briany

G.K. wrote: »

Hennesey - Gunter, Williams, Blake, Taylor - Ramsey, Vaughan, Allen - Bale, Bellamy - Morison

With Myhill, Collins, Ricketts, Ledley, Collison, Crofts, Vokes, Edwards, King, Church, Robson-Kanu, Gabbidon, Earnshaw as backup.

I may have bias being Welsh but I think we have a better starting XI than you's.

Maybe so, but then it must be annoying that the Welsh team still failed to qualify out of a pretty unremarkable qualifying group. I think the Welsh and Scottish teams are where Ireland was about 2005 or so picking up some decent results here and there but failing to beat teams they really should be beating. One thing about the Irish team under Trap is that they do beat the lower seeded teams consistently and set themselves up to make themselves harder to beat vs. the higher seeded teams and that combination will usually see them kept in the running.

kitakyushu

G.K. wrote: »

Hennesey - Gunter, Williams, Blake, Taylor - Ramsey, Vaughan, Allen - Bale, Bellamy - Morison

With Myhill, Collins, Ricketts, Ledley, Collison, Crofts, Vokes, Edwards, King, Church, Robson-Kanu, Gabbidon, Earnshaw as backup.

I may have bias being Welsh but I think we have a better starting XI than you's.

Possibly so. Certainly Bale would be the star of either XI anyway. That said tho I'd say it just means that both countries have a lot of middle-of-the-road prem & championship players and that Ireland are over-achieving, rather than to say Wales should logically be doing as good as Ireland because of the players they have.

When Ireland play at Euro 2012 I reckon fans in the non-uk countries aren't really going to know many of our players (I'd say they *might* know Keane and O'Shea at most). Not that that matters, it's just to say we're hardly blessed with stars or top quality.

Soups123

G.K. wrote: »

Hennesey - Gunter, Williams, Blake, Taylor - Ramsey, Vaughan, Allen - Bale, Bellamy - Morison

With Myhill, Collins, Ricketts, Ledley, Collison, Crofts, Vokes, Edwards, King, Church, Robson-Kanu, Gabbidon, Earnshaw as backup.

I may have bias being Welsh but I think we have a better starting XI than you's.

I don't think so, I'd have given, Dunne O'shea & St ledger from the options of back 5, I'd take Ramsey and Bale from ur mid, and Bellamy. Put I suppose it ain't about individuals it's more a case of getting the best manager and system you can! Shame about Speed he really seemed to be getting Wales into some momentum

I'd have Giggs aswell:)

G.K.

In my humble opinion,

Given > Hennessey
Ward < Taylor
Dunne > Blake
Sledge > Williams
O’Shea > Gunter
McGeady < Bale
Andrews < Allen
Whelan < Vaughan
Duff < Ramsey
Keane > Morison
Doyle < Bellamy

But really this isn't relevant, so we should probably stop.

Soups123

G.K. wrote: »

In my humble opinion,

Given > Hennessey
Ward < Taylor
Dunne > Blake
Sledge > Williams
O’Shea > Gunter
McGeady < Bale
Andrews < Allen
Whelan < Vaughan
Duff < Ramsey
Keane > Morison
Doyle < Bellamy

But really this isn't relevant, so we should probably stop.

Agree although as an Arsenal fan I wud'nt put Ramsey over Duff although they're not like for like comparison, Ramsey is C
Mid. Also think Whelan/Andrews = Allen/ Vaughan. Both teams above average

One difference between Wales and Ireland.

One has a world class manager.

G.K.

The both of us used to.

EdenHazard

G.K. wrote: »

The both of us used to.

Yet wales in one qualifying campagin lost half as much games as ireland have in the last 12 years...ok. Ireland would never ever lose 5 games in a qualification which shows just how much better we are than wales. even with staunton in a group with germany and czech republic(when they were good) we lost just 3 games(including the freak 5-2 result vs cyprus_

Pro. F

kitakyushu wrote: »

Further on the balance of our play to date under Trap I'd say 43% wins is almost flattering rather than deserved. You might want a higher win% but there's been little evidence to suggest we actually deserve it or could achieve it playing some other way.

But the balance of play is down to Trap's style. Letting the opposition have the ball and giving them space is what his style is. There is evidence that suggests we could achieve more with a more effective style than Trap's: compare the fist leg against the French to the second. Also compare how we play when we're level to how we play when we're behind.

RiseToTheTop

He should bring in Andy Reid IMO, if Reid can get his weight right.

I also prefer Shane Long to play over Cox.

gosplan

clubberlang12 wrote: »

So you're not slightly worried heading straight into a tough WC qualifying group right after the Euro's with the core of our squad very much on the wrong side of 30 and no real experience given to the younger players who more than likely will play a large part in that campaign? Hardly "special" to be concerned about that.

Different point.

The manager had to focus 100% on current qualification. Anything else having not qualified for anything for a decade would have been rediculous.

G.K.

I'm sorry, but 3 of those defeats were before we got Speed, which is what I was talking about. The others were both against England, a better team than any Ireland faced.

But Wales are irelevant, can we please stop talking about them.

kitakyushu

G.K. wrote: »

I'm sorry, but 3 of those defeats were before we got Speed, which is what I was talking about. The others were both against England, a better team than any Ireland faced.

That remains to be seen. If Russia play England this summer I know who my money will be on.

Rhys Essien

Just to update,Trap's total win % ended up at 40.6%.

In fourth place behind Kerr,Charlton and Mick Mc.

Rhys Essien

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Just to update,Trap's total win % ended up at 40.6%.

In fourth place behind Kerr,Charlton and Mick Mc.

Your OP was still an epic fail despite the updates

Rhys Essien

rarnes1 wrote: »

Your OP was still an epic fail despite the updates

I stand by it.