I really want Ireland to be 'fixed'.We live in a great country,its not right.

Nodin

dotsman wrote: »

Interesting terminology. If you fell you are being shafted, why not upskill and earn a higher wage? It's a free country - nobody is forcing you to be unskilled.

...the usual idealistic guff, which takes no account of general economic conditions, societal conditioning etc. We had a system where there was no minimum wage for many years, and it resulted in exploitation and abuse.

lividduck

GombeanMan wrote: »

The Doctor has also gone through years of medical school and college, not to mention 100,000 euro and upwards in loans for that schooling. The minimum wage artifically cuts out a large sector of people who could work for very little, build some track record, then earn more increases. This creates a situation whereby you can command better wages, because if not, the guy down the street will. Minimum wage schemes hurt profits. The minimum wage does nothing to encourage hard work. Rent is also artificially high as a result of Government interference in the market. Socialism again at work. If they just removed 80% of the regulations out there, we would probably be able to cut prices across the board for everyone.

No €100,000 No loans at all, the guy on the minimum wage pays for the rich doctors FREE 3rd level education!
You are certainly living up to the name you chose.
:mad:

lividduck

dotsman wrote: »

And why do you think it costs €50 to see a doctor? Why do you think it costs €600 for rent? Why do you think Ireland is so expensive (when, just 20 years ago it was very cheap)

Minimum wage is a wolf in sheep's clothing. People on it (or near it) think, "great, another increase, I'm going to have more money (for doing nothing)!", whereas the reality is that some of them will simply lose their jobs because of it, while the rest, although receiving the increase, will quickly notice a matching increase in the cost of living, thus it has an overall negative impact on the economy.

WTF, what do you mean "doing nothing"?

lividduck

Since Im not interested in feeding the T****S im getting out now. Advise others to do the same.

Eric Cartman

lividduck wrote: »

WTF, what do you mean "doing nothing"?

minimum wage over values some labour and takes from higher wages at higher positions due to having to pay out 8.65 an hour for somebody who might only generate 4 euro an hour of value to the employer

mikemac1

GombeanMan wrote: »

The Doctor has also gone through years of medical school and college, not to mention 100,000 euro and upwards in loans for that schooling.

This is an Irish site, not American

If you get the points and get on the course then the State pays the fees

mikemac1

dotsman wrote: »

[*]The fact that in 2006, a young unskilled worker with little motivation or work ethic, providing no economic output (in fact, very much driving the bubble) was being paid a lot more than a young highly skilled, hard-working, ambitious worker.

Market rates set your wage

And you don't last long labouring on a site sweating and freezing and drenched outside hauling around bricks and digging trenches if you don't have a work ethic. It was well paid and anyone could have worked it, you had your summers free didn't you.

Just because you have a piece of paper does not make you more hard working or mean others lack ambition

dotsman

Nodin wrote: »

...the usual idealistic guff, which takes no account of general economic conditions, societal conditioning etc. We had a system where there was no minimum wage for many years, and it resulted in exploitation and abuse.

...the usual socialist guff. Any chance of examples (I mean; an example of someone who has been prevented from getting an education? From doing a FAS course? From working hard and impressing their boss to be promoted to a better position, from learning an economically useful skill in their own time etc)?

lividduck wrote: »

WTF, what do you mean "doing nothing"?

"Doing nothing to economically deserve a massive raise". If an employee's labour contributes €7 per hour to their employer, then the employer can pay them anything up to €7 per hour and still make a profit. If a socialist comes along and says that that person must now be paid €8 an hour for the exact same labour, then either the employer lets the employee go (and the taxpayer must fund the now unemployed labourer) or jack up prices to enable that employee's labour contribute in excess of €8 (thus causing massive inflation).

GombeanMan

lividduck wrote: »

No €100,000 No loans at all, the guy on the minimum wage pays for the rich doctors FREE 3rd level education!
You are certainly living up to the name you chose.
:mad:

I apologise for being an ass:( You are right. RCSI is very expensive here, but the others are state funded. Which is correct.

dxhound2005

dotsman wrote: »

...the usual socialist guff. Any chance of examples (I mean; an example of someone who has been prevented from getting an education? From doing a FAS course? From working hard and impressing their boss to be promoted to a better position, from learning an economically useful skill in their own time etc)?


"Doing nothing to economically deserve a massive raise". If an employee's labour contributes €7 per hour to their employer, then the employer can pay them anything up to €7 per hour and still make a profit. If a socialist comes along and says that that person must now be paid €8 an hour for the exact same labour, then either the employer lets the employee go (and the taxpayer must fund the now unemployed labourer) or jack up prices to enable that employee's labour contribute in excess of €8 (thus causing massive inflation).

Don't worry about inflation.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/inflation-average-imf-data.html

dotsman

mikemac1 wrote: »

Market rates set your wage

Unfortunately, the labour market was greatly distorted by the unions and the property bubble funding their party.

mikemac1 wrote: »

And you don't last long labouring on a site sweating and freezing and drenched outside hauling around bricks and digging trenches if you don't have a work ethic.

From what I witnessed, and from what I heard, and now see, that was simply not true.

The state of some of the buildings constructed just a few years ago is testament to that.

mikemac1 wrote: »

It was well paid and anyone could have worked it, you had your summers free didn't you.

Yes, anybody could work it - and that was the problem! Far too many people did. Instead of learning the skills needed in the medium/long term, far too many were tempted by the fast buck.

I haven't had any free summers since I was a child. I'm not quite sure what you are on about

mikemac1 wrote: »

Just because you have a piece of paper does not make you more hard working or mean others lack ambition

By "piece of paper" are you referring to an education/qualification? If so, you are partially correct, it doesn't necessarily mean you are more hard-working. However, I think it does generally show ambition - the desire to self-improve and learn new/better skills.

Nodin

dotsman wrote: »

...the usual socialist guff. Any chance of examples (I mean; an example of someone who has been prevented from getting an education? From doing a FAS course? From working hard and impressing their boss to be promoted to a better position, from learning an economically useful skill in their own time etc)?).

And again - if you were promoted and earning feck all, you're still being underpaid for even more work and responsibility.

How many people with kids and a mortgage - particularily during a recession - are going to trade a known steady poor quantity for an unknown one?

dotsman wrote: »

The fact that in 2006, a young unskilled worker with little motivation or work ethic, providing no economic output (in fact, very much driving the bubble) was being paid a lot more than a young highly skilled, hard-working, ambitious worker

What bizzare planet did you come from....Rand World?

AudreyHepburn

I think a lot of our problems are down to how bitter and cycnical we as a people have become, and how unwillinging some of us are to acknowledge that they did 'party hard' in the Boom years.

Of course the the bankers/developers/politicians didn't help at all.

We are a great little country though and I truely believe that we can find our way back to prosperity if we pull together rather than resorting to this 'us-and-them' mentality.

dotsman

Nodin wrote: »

And again - if you were promoted and earning feck all, you're still being underpaid for even more work and responsibility.

Well then, it wasn't much of a promotion. If you believe you are worth more, why don't you work for an employer who values your skills?

Nodin wrote: »

How many people with kids and a mortgage - particularily during a recession - are going to trade a known steady poor quantity for an unknown one?

I thought we were talking about the boom years????

Nodin wrote: »

What bizzare planet did you come from....Rand World?

Me, I'm from earth. I assumed everybody who posts on Boards is also from earth. In fact, it would be pretty ****in shocking if there was an alien life-form posting on boards (and worthy of its own thread!) I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here...

mikemac1

dotsman wrote: »

From what I witnessed, and from what I heard, and now see, that was simply not true.

The state of some of the buildings constructed just a few years ago is testament to that.

Your post was about young unskilled workers.
They were labourers on sites

If the construction is shoddy it's not the labourers fault, it's the builders and tradesmen who are in charge of construction who were to blame. And they are not young and unskilled
Tradesman is a skilled job

If a wall is badly built you blame the brickie who is in charge and is qualified for that job, not the young lad who helps them

gerryo777

swingking wrote: »

Well I can't believe that snake Ahern showed up at the ff ard dheis. He should be strung by the balls :mad:

He doesn't have any balls, that's the reason we are where we are, no balls to take on the vested interests in our society!
Give them what they want, turn a blind eye, nudge nudge, wink wink, sure it'll be grand.
A pimple on the arsehole of humanity.

Liam Byrne

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think a lot of our problems are down to how bitter and cycnical we as a people have become, and how unwillinging some of us are to acknowledge that they did 'party hard' in the Boom years.

Interesting duplicity of phrasing......I have no problem acknowledging the facts - that (as you said) THEY did 'party hard'.

Did a subconscious conscience prevent you from wording the second part as per the usual government spin and lies ?

Nodin

mikemac1 wrote: »

Your post was about young unskilled workers.
They were labourers on sites

If the construction is shoddy it's not the labourers fault, it's the builders and tradesmen who are in charge of construction who were to blame. And they are not young and unskilled
Tradesman is a skilled job

If a wall is badly built you blame the brickie who is in charge and is qualified for that job, not the young lad who helps them

...in fact, dubious quality has become far more common since the way buildings were inspected was changed. The old way was "red tape holding up business" apparently.

Nodin

dotsman wrote: »

Well then, it wasn't much of a promotion. If you believe you are worth more, why don't you work for an employer who values your skills?
...

....covered under 'unknown quantity/pressure' alluded to earlier.

dotsman wrote: »

I thought we were talking about the boom years????...

...even during the "boom" years. Older people often had the mentality that if you had a job, you hung onto it for dear life. Younger folk coming into the job market had the advantage of not giving a crap, and not having any great obligations hanging over them, so were far more likely to move along.