Broadband in rural Ireland

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

100s of people would disagree with you. There were at least 2 megathreads outlining poor speeds and various other problems like cdma CellBreathing on boards over the years all those 100s can't be wrong. I had 3 broadband when I was between proper broadband suppliers and the speeds were atrocious. My brother however has a reasonable speed on his dongle and he uses it everyday but as I tell him "don't tell your neighbours".

Do you disagree with any of the conclusions in these papers:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/
http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/wh...not-broadband/

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

Since when has one or two users been a majority?

My point is simple to anybody trying to get broadband in rural Ireland is to stay well enough away from mobile midband and seek out FWA providers in their area.
Westnet was already suggested to the OP as were suggestions as to how to get better fixed line broadband
Your understanding of the technicalities of 3G are obviously flawed, you are lucky to get a good speed but due to the same technical aspects another user may not get reliable speeds.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

Since when has one or two users been a majority?

My point is simple to anybody trying to get broadband in rural Ireland is to stay well enough away from mobile midband and seek out FWA providers in their area.
Westnet was already suggested to the OP as were suggestions as to how to get better fixed line broadband
Your understanding of the technicalities of 3G are obviously flawed, you are lucky to get a good speed but due to the same technical aspects another user may not get reliable speeds.

I have used westnet. They charge 35 euro for 1mb, that scales to 512kb after 30 seconds. Three NBS is far better value.

The op stated fixed line was not an option.

You aren't providing any evidence for your claim that threes NBS service is a "sham".

Bill Shock

runawaybishop wrote: »

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

I think you're missing the point here.....it doesn't matter a damn to spokespersons/members of Ireland Off Line what you're experience is of the NBS....they are pathologically opposed to it and have been from day 1. They have no interest in hearing anyone's positive experience from this service but would most welcome any negative or bad perpectives as it helps bolster their view that (a) its not broadband and (b) it is bad for the people and communities it serves.

bealtine

Bill Shock wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here.....it doesn't matter a damn to spokespersons/members of Ireland Off Line what you're experience is of the NBS....they are pathologically opposed to it

With very good technical reasons and arguments the most important of which is CDMA Cell Breathing http://www.telecomabc.com/c/cell-breathing.html
In short the effect of cell breathing is one minute you can have a connection and then the next no connection at all. This is why I kept mentioning luck as a factor in 3G systems.

A graphic which illustrates this is to be found here:
http://info.irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/img3.html

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

With very good technical reasons and arguments the most important of which is CDMA Cell Breathing http://www.telecomabc.com/c/cell-breathing.html
In short the effect of cell breathing is one minute you can have a connection and then the next no connection at all. This is why I kept mentioning luck as a factor in 3G systems.

A graphic which illustrates this is to be found here:
http://info.irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/img3.html

No one is denying that in theory this happens. Three, however, are contractually obliged to provide minimum speeds and contention. Are you claiming they breach their contract?

Do you have proof of this?

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

No one is denying that in theory this happens. Three, however, are contractually obliged to provide minimum speeds and contention. Are you claiming they breach their contract?

Do you have proof of this?

It's not just a theory it's a well documented effect in the real world.

I am simply stating that it is technically impossible for 3 to meet these contractual speeds and connection obligations as it is for any 3G provider.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

It's not just a theory it's a well documented effect in the real world.

I am simply stating that it is technically impossible for 3 to meet these contractual speeds and connection obligations as it is for any 3G provider.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Monitor%20performance

^^ that says the opposite of what you say. Can you link the documentation please?

Sponge Bob

The math is simple. There are 40,000 NBS connections and around 400 masts were installed or partially designated to serve them

A typical mast has three sectors. Assume all the sectors point at NBS customers.

Therefore each mast serves 40,000 / 400 or 100 punters per mast and each sector serves 33 punters.

As a sector has 14.4mbit of shared bandwith it simply cannot serve the punters with 1mbit broadband if half are online....assuming a perfect distribution of punters.

What actually happens is that some sectors serve 5 or 6 and others end up serving 50 or 60....until the overloaded sector breathes in and they get no service till after midnight that is. Those in sparsely populated sectors get a good service.

With 4g ( assuming 3 get a licence) they may be able to do some QoS and guarantee _something_ at all times. This is utterly impossible with 3g.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Monitor%20performance

^^ that says the opposite of what you say. Can you link the documentation please?

The documentation for what? I've shown you what Cell Breathing is and that it is the reason why people can connect sometimes and sometimes cannot.
The Inverse Square law is another one that is relevant to connection speeds here too.
Google them...

You can ignore the physics and the technical facts and point to some patent nonsense on the DECNR website and say look even the DECNR can overcome the laws of physics.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

The documentation for what? I've shown you what Cell Breathing is and that it is the reason why people can connect sometimes and sometimes cannot.
The Inverse Square law is another one that is relevant to connection speeds here too.
Google them...

You can ignore the physics and the technical facts and point to some patent nonsense on the DECNR website and say look even the DECNR can overcome the laws of physics.

You claimed that NBS was a scam. Furthermore you claimed that 100s of people do not get the service they are contractually obliged to receive. Can provide the documentation/proof that shows this is actually happening?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The math is simple. There are 40,000 NBS connections and around 400 masts were installed or partially designated to serve them

A typical mast has three sectors. Assume all the sectors point at NBS customers.

Therefore each mast serves 40,000 / 400 or 100 punters per mast and each sector serves 33 punters.

As a sector has 14.4mbit of shared bandwith it simply cannot serve the punters with 1mbit broadband if half are online....assuming a perfect distribution of punters.

What actually happens is that some sectors serve 5 or 6 and others end up serving 50 or 60....until the overloaded sector breathes in and they get no service till after midnight that is. Those in sparsely populated sectors get a good service.

With 4g ( assuming 3 get a licence) they may be able to do some QoS and guarantee _something_ at all times. This is utterly impossible with 3g.

Thanks Sponge Bob, thats far more constructive. Where is this information coming from?

Sponge Bob

runawaybishop wrote: »

You claimed that NBS was a scam. Furthermore you claimed that 100s of people do not get the service they are contractually obliged to receive. Can provide the documentation/proof that shows this is actually happening?

How many posts on Boards.ie describe the service in a 3G cell going at 7pm and coming back at midnight. 1000's I should think. This is a feature of 3G technology when faced with congestion.

Punters are supposed to get minimum 2.3mbits from July 2012. Pahhh

Where is this information coming from?

Subs > http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-11-15.1728.0&s=nbs+connections#g1730.0.r

Masts 160 dedicated and 390 total > http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/finally-its-access-all-areas-in-233m-broadband-rollout-1611642.html

baords dyslexic

This is what the Official 3 Representative has to say about speeds

Three: Patrick wrote: »

The criteria of the National Broadband Scheme, as set out by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources state that the minimum speed requirement of the service is 1.6mbps subject to 22:1 contention rate. So to put it simply if there are even three other users serving off the serving site that it can mean speeds of 400kbps. If more than one device is connected through a wireless router it means the 400kbps is split to 200kbps.

Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources.

runawaybishop

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How many posts on Boards.ie describe the service in a 3G cell going at 7pm and coming back at midnight. 1000's I should think. This is a feature of 3G technology when faced with congestion.

Punters are supposed to get minimum 2.3mbits from July 2012. Pahhh

Subs > http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-11-15.1728.0&s=nbs+connections#g1730.0.r

Masts 160 dedicated and 390 total > http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/finally-its-access-all-areas-in-233m-broadband-rollout-1611642.html

Forum posts aren't data You cannot rely on posters to tell the truth, or be representative. Three are contracted to supply the stated download speed and must supply it or be in breech of contract. They do, however, claim that the uptime is only 98.5%.

Your document is from 2009 btw and mentions sites, not number of masts or any specifications.

baords dyslexic wrote: »

This is what the Official 3 Representative has to say about speeds

Interesting, because that directly contradicts my understanding of their terms and conditions.

Minimum download speed – minimum speed in Mbps that files are downloaded by a Customer from the Internet at 3’s ISP.
1.6 Mbps

"Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources."
^^ mail sent.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Minimum download speed – minimum speed in Mbps that files are downloaded by a Customer from the Internet at 3’s ISP.
1.6 Mbps

"Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources."
^^ mail sent.

Don't expect a sensible answer from the Department as the same people who are doing the monitoring are the ones that suggested and lobbied for the project in the first place. So they have a vested interest in demonstrating that the system "works" and works well. So any answer from the DECNR will reflect that "thinking" and attempt to put a positive spin on any technical shortcomings of the scheme.

squonk

It's slightly off topic but I wouldn't touch 3 with a barge pole after my last experience 18 months ago. I got an iPhone 4 off them after it came out. After less than 24 hours with the phone I realised that my local area was outside their 3G coverage and their GPRS coverage made the phone unusable for data. I was also plagued by messages popping up as I moved when the phone switched networks.

So, I got onto 3 and compained. I was between jobs at the time which was a good thing as it took me a further 24 hours to get anywhere with them. I spent literally hours on the phone dealing with morons who ran through their scripts. Eventually I had to point out that I had gone through all of their suggested resolution steps 3 times. They then tried to fob me off by telling me to go to a 3 store. I had to tell them flat out that that was ridiculous as the closest 3 store was in the next town and that it was guaranteed that there'd be 3 3G coverage there and I asked them how would that prove my underlying problem with coverage or allow anybody there to effect a solution. Eventually the rep relented and provided me with an address to return the handset to.

That wasn't the end of it. I later found that they charged me for the replacement cost of the handset and claimed they didn't receive it. I had proof of postage and sent them a copy. Some muppet left the box sitting in the corner of a warehouse obviously.

Based on that experience I wouldn't go near them for broadband, even if the option was to have 3 broadband or no broadband. I was particularly lucky I had the time to deal with their run around tactics the last time. Were I at work, that wouldn't have been possible. It beggars belief that the dept. gave them the NBS to run. I wouldn't trust them to feed my dog for a weekend let alone run anything more complex. They're a complete joke.

jay93

Did you ever pick up 3G at all on the iPhone there's a huge thread in the Three forum here about an issue with the iPhone on their network where it gets stuck on GPRS until you reset the phone or turn airplane mode on/off .
Or was it just the case of no 3G signal at all where you lived the iPhone i known for bad reception problems aswell so that wouldn't help either.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

Don't expect a sensible answer from the Department as the same people who are doing the monitoring are the ones that suggested and lobbied for the project in the first place. So they have a vested interest in demonstrating that the system "works" and works well. So any answer from the DECNR will reflect that "thinking" and attempt to put a positive spin on any technical shortcomings of the scheme.

Just got rminded of this thread.

The dept rang me. Said the terms on Threes and their own website are under review as they are unclear and confusing.

Sponge Bob

They've been up there for 3 years and now they notice.

baords dyslexic

runawaybishop wrote: »

Just got rminded of this thread.

The dept rang me. Said the terms on Threes and their own website are under review as they are unclear and confusing.

But they can't change them as a change of T&C would allow anyone who wanted the chance to cancel their contract.