Should Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen be put on trial?

LuckyLloyd

You wouldn't really want to live in a society where this was done. You think you would, sure - but you don't want your wish to come true in this case.

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

Cool story bro.

mike65

I wish people would stop drawing parallels between Tribunals and a criminal trial. Quite different undertakings a on quite different basis.

yuppies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkvWVJ4XOXk

Bertie still has his fans!

Nothingbetter2d

should they? yes

will they? no the get big fat pensions instead

later12

mike65 wrote: »

Today Icelands Prime Minister of 2008 going to trail having been charged with
failure to protect the counties finanaces

Great.

But that's not a criminal offence in Ireland.

It's not enough simply to disagree with an individual's actions or a government's policy to insist that they must be put on trial. You have to show than an offence was committed.

If anyone knows of an offence having been committed contrary to the law as it stands, go to the Gardai or the relevant authority.

But no; if somebody has not committed an offence, or is not charged with impugning the law based on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence, then the state has no business putting such an individual on trial.

Biggins

yuppies wrote: »

Bertie still has his fans!

On the whole it looks like, aged ones.

homerjay2005

unfortunately being a clown and an inept w*nker isnt a criminal offence and therefore, they wont be put in jail.

bertie may yet be done for something, though unlikely. i doubt cowan ever did anything wrong, he just was a fool.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

€650 million spent on unrealised projects

in all fairness though, a huge chuck of the above are "on hold", the majority of which is pure and simple - the money ran out.

the payment scheme and the evoting though, are bad enough to have half the department for finance and health, put in jail.

KeithAFC

Eduardo Calm Cue wrote: »

You keep fighting the good fight Keith. :pac:

Till the end. But it is a point which people in the Irish Republic do need to realise when it comes to putting people like Ahern before the courts.

Fighting Irish

Its a hard one, we voted them in and most of us loved that we could borrow endless amounts of money

Son Of A Vidic

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Trials take too long

Well I did suggest option A or B.

Son Of A Vidic

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Its a hard one, we some people voted them in and most some of us loved that we could borrow endless amounts of money

Just amended some incredible sweeping generalisations in that post.

Biggins

Should he be put on trial (if only for possibly changing laws so that his mates could benefit?)... Yes.

Will he? No.

Why?
...Because I suspect he knows just too much about who also is involved in many of his antics which possibly extends over many decades and possibly with others of all parties that used to sit across from him in the Dail.

The last place the present government wants Mr Ahern, is in the dock.
The stuff he might come out with if he decided to take a few down with him, would shake this country to its core - and that I suspect is what they are afraid partly of.

cloptrop

Eduardo Calm Cue wrote: »

What kind of a chocolate factory rents out rooms to yoga classes?

An intelligent one that has its chocolate fingers in many moonpies.

squod

Motorist wrote: »

As much as I'd like to see MaFFia pay for ruining the country, this thread is just fanciful nonsense.

Eh.......

Ms Burton says all those who sat around the Cabinet table of the last government need to come before a Dáil inquiry to answer questions about what happened.
Three inquiries have been held into the collapse of the banks but Ms Burton says they were all held in private and none dealt with the role of the ECB or the former government.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0425/economy.html

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

How are they stupid and or incompetent?

Domo230 wrote: »

Last time I checked it was not illegal to be incompetent.

I took a well educated, experienced politician about a year and a half to successfully scam the public into bailing Anglo. The central bank had to counterfeit €51 billion at one point just to feed it's bosses egos.

Bailing out Anglo is economic treason says An Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/bailing-out-anglo-is-economic-treason-says-an-tanaiste-eamon-gilmore/

It won't take wikileaks or something to bring to light what happened here. Dogs on the street knew then and know now what went on between the leaders of FF & FG when they bailed their mates and bankrupted the state.

Brenda Powers article on page 13 of yesterdays Sunday Times gives a fairly good account of the feeling of the nation. People need jailing over this. That's the actual reality. No amount of FF sand bagging can cover this up.

ScumLord

The PR guys should all be taken to court. They actively conspired against the Irish people by encouraging our politicians to corrupt the facts for political gain. All they do is corrupt information that we should be getting straight. If not taken to court the use of PR and media guys should be completely banned from politics.

All politicians should be held accountable for their actions during their service, every other worker is. We should be looking for any way of not paying them any more money.

Liam Byrne

cloptrop wrote: »

If Tommy the chocolate factory worker ran out of space to store his chocolate one day and decided to stick it in another room up the hall that seemed empty , just stuck a couple of pallets in the corner and sure nobody will notice its Friday evening and he was gonna move it monday morning when the trucks took some stuff out of the way.
Put poor Tommy didnt realise that a yoga instructor rented that room on weekends to do bikram yoga classes.
Chaos ensues and Tommy comes in monday to a room of melted chocolate.
Should Tommy face trial or just be deported.

Where's the part where everyone shouts at Tommy that it's a bad idea to park there an he turns around and tells them to f**k off and commit suicide ?

cloptrop

The newspapers should be brought to court for sabotaging the Irish government by talking down the economy .
Its treason.
All them people that lied about their wages to get a mortgage and a new car and now cant pay it should be jailed.
The investment people who are still getting paid should be told to **** off.
Bertie should be made go on the late late show and do the im a little tea pot dance . Brian Cowen should be made diet .
The makers of m night shalanans last god knows how many films should be made watch them .
Mary Harney should be made work as a nurse for the rest of her life.

Jasonx

Instead of paying the costs of a court case why not just strip these people of the fat state pensions they are receiving. if they like they can hold a referendum on it and let the taxpayers decide what they get and in the referendum let the current shower know if they too continue to **** up the country the fat pensions wont be there for them either.

But as someone said this is Ireland. where people like Sherlock can ignore the people and do what he wants knowing the worst that will happen to him is he doesnt get voted back in. sure again he has that pension to look forward to and a job with his friends in the music industry.

may be in a 100 years from now people will ask how were the Irish people so stupid to stand by and allow politician after politician to screw the country

toxicity234

Yeah,
As should all the opposition leaders over the last 14 years.
If you don't believe me read any of there campaign propaganda in full over the period your talk about.
I remember all the talk about how to get first time buyers on the properties ladder

Phill Ewinn

[QUOTE=Biggins;77432666

Why?
...Because I suspect he knows just too much about who also is involved in many of his antics which possibly extends over many decades and possibly with others of all parties that used to sit across from him in the Dail.

The last place the present government wants Mr Ahern, is in the dock.
The stuff he might come out with if he decided to take a few down with him, would shake this country to its core - and that I suspect is what they are afraid partly of.[/QUOTE]

That's about it. It's why so many of us wanted people to vote independent. PS workers, politicians, developers and bankers conspired against the state.

Phill Ewinn

France 24 are covering the story of the Icelandic PM who faces trial, simply because he is accountable for the bubble in Iceland.

''Haarde’s trial - the culmination of a long fight by
the politician to avoid prosecution - marks a new
chapter in the aftermath of the meltdown:
accountability.''

Honestly can't see any reason why Cowen and co are still free and drawing salaries from the state.

twinytwo

smash wrote: »

Personally I think them, and the financial regulator and the whole dept of finance should be put on trial!

forget a trial none of them are worth the expense.... but them against a wall a shoot them...

twinytwo

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

France 24 are covering the story of the Icelandic PM who faces trial, simply because he is accountable for the bubble in Iceland.

''Haarde’s trial - the culmination of a long fight by
the politician to avoid prosecution - marks a new
chapter in the aftermath of the meltdown:
accountability.''

Honestly can't see any reason why Cowen and co are still free and drawing salaries from the state.

because other than complain about no one will do anything about it.

the culture of deference

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Honestly can't see any reason why Cowen and co are still free and drawing salaries from the state.

€2,596 euro a week pension


Poor Bertie
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1028/1224306623410.html

FORMER TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern has defended his State pension of approximately €135,000 (it was €152,331) and said he had worked for it for 40 years.


Cowen is on a grand a year less than bertie



ALMOST €8.8 million of taxpayers’ money will be paid out in pensions for 109 former ministers this year.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1110/1224307311467.html



Top pensions


Top Pensions
Bertie Ahern €152,331

Michael D Higgins €87,928

Albert Reynolds €149,740

Ray Burke €103,838

John Bruton €141,849

Dick Spring €121,108

Liam Cosgrave €133,023

Charlie McCreevy €119,177


Mr Ahern said he had taken a reduction both in his taoiseach’s salary and then in his pension.

galwayrush

They are only guilty of incompetence, cronyism, greed and a large dash of stupitidy.
I wonder how many pople at the jobs fair last weekend would queue up to shake their hands and have a pic taken with them...:rolleyes:

squod

galwayrush wrote: »

They are only guilty of incompetence, cronyism, greed and a large dash of stupitidy.

That simply isn't true. Hiring a bunch of advisers, ignoring everything they say and spending the next 18 months figuring out how to defraud the tax payer isn't anything an incompetent person could do.

I still firmly believe that cowen will in the future be exposed as a complete crook there is something really suspicious about that mans involvement in bank of ireland .

I hope it will eventually come out .

Nodster

No question, I'd throw my shoes at the lot of them

HOS 1997

Seeing Ray Burke's salary is enough to make me sick.

micropig

Don't bother with the trial for this lot, waste of money, just jail the lot of them..

Set up stocks in O'Connell street, once a week we get to throw rotten tomatoes at the lot of them

woodoo

Yes because i want to know word for word what was said on the night of the bank guarantee.

JonathanAnon

the culture of deference wrote: »

Top pensions
Top Pensions
Bertie Ahern €152,331
Albert Reynolds €149,740
Ray Burke €103,838
Charlie McCreevy €119,177

Dont forget Mary Hanafin and other members of that most destructive Cabinet are also on >100k pensions... The thing that I find most exceptional is that they think it's still okay to take these lubricious pensions from the State (pensions which they boosted while in office), even though the State is now borrowing to pay these pensions because of THEIR mistakes...

If FF were really "sorry" as Michael Martin said, then they would force the ex party Ministers to show a bit of humility..

And Ray Burke should still be in jail, never mind being paid his pension.. I mean what do you have to do in this country to LOSE a public service pension??

micropig

woodoo wrote: »

Yes because i want to know word for word what was said on the night of the bank guarantee.

Probably something like this:

Cowen: How'd the game of golf go lads, great course isn't it

Bankers: The best.

Cowen: Do you have that ahem...Donation for me

*Bankers hand over brown envelope

Cowen: Nice one lads. Drinks?

Bankers: Make mine a large Middleton rare on the rocks

Cowen: Session on! Wooohoo!

ilovesleep

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Its a hard one, we voted them in

The icelanders voted in their ex PM and that hasn't stopped them at seeking justice and accountibility.

The Germans voted in Hitler and Hitler was due on trial after WW2 before he hanged himself.

Fighting Irish wrote: »

most of us loved that we could borrow endless amounts of money

Like the developers who borrowed millions and millions selfishly and greedily for their developments? In which many failed and went into nama.

Some other people borrowed in proportion to their incomes.

Many, many others did not borrow.

squod

JonathanAnon wrote: »

what do you have to do in this country to LOSE a public service pension??

Develop Alzheimers?

the culture of deference

micropig wrote: »

Probably something like this:

Cowen: How'd the game of golf go lads, great course isn't it

Bankers: The best.

Cowen: Do you have that ahem...Donation for me

*Bankers hand over brown envelope

Cowen: Nice one lads. Drinks?

Bankers: Make mine a large Middleton rare on the rocks

Cowen: Session on! Wooohoo!

Pretty sure every that every brown envelope that went around had a little taste for Bertie. Not much would have went on without him pulling the strings.

micropig

the culture of deference wrote: »

Pretty sure every that every brown envelope that went around had a little taste for Bertie. Not much would have went on without him pulling the strings.

Naturally, that goes without saying, he got his at the 5th hole:D

micropig

squod wrote: »

Develop Alzheimers?

Nah, you'd still blend right in:D

jumpguy

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

Yes, it comes in many guises: malpractice, negligence...

Bertie Ahern should definitely be put on trial. Nevermind the reckless policies that put the country in an insanely vulnerable position - the question of his dodgy payments has been brushed under the carpet. It seems if you're a politician in this country all you have to do to escape the law is to resign or take on a role of lesser significance.

Fighting Irish

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Just amended some incredible sweeping generalisations in that post.

That's fine, but the main point i was getting at is still true!
Politicians are kept in their jobs by the people, and i'm sorry to say but a lot of people haven't a clue what's best for them, so a lot of times, the politicians give them whatever they think they want, just to save their own jobs!

No way around this really

patwicklow

Seen them all living it up in druids glen when i worked there i really should have taken notes or had a tape recorder when i used to look after them at there private dinners just thinking back in hindsight.

micropig

patwicklow wrote: »

Seen them all living it up in druids glen when i worked there i really should have taken notes or had a tape recorder when i used to look after them at there private dinners just thinking back in hindsight.

If only, you missed an opportunity there Pat, you could be holding them all to ransom now for 100million euro, in exchange for keeping quiet

Doc Ruby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKITYu7z-AY

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

.........

Is it time that Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, John Hurley (governor of Cetral bank) and Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) were charged with negligence?

Most definitely, especially in the case of Patrick Neary. Many folks label the bond holders etc as wild gamblers, they're nothing of the sort, if Neary was doing his job there wouldn't have been a requirement for the bank guarantee. The bond holders were in their own minds investing in a stable and well controlled fiinancial system, they didn't expect it to be a badly managed pyramid scheme.

I wouldn't charge Ahern with negligence, he should be charged with whatever the legal term for unscrupulous, thieving bastad is.

Cowen, I'm not sure about tbh, I think he was incompetent and out of his depth.

Michael Martin should be locked up anyway so we don't have to endure any more speeches from him alluding to him being away on Mars for the last 15 years.

patwicklow

micropig wrote: »

If only, you missed an opportunity there Pat, you could be holding them all to ransom now for 100million euro, in exchange for keeping quiet

Thats what i mean even when Sean Fitzpatrick was standing down as CEO and handing it to David drum worked at that party too and that was some party tons of champers and fine wines all set up in a massive marquee. Was some thing out of VIP magazine, all the so called millionaires were there along with some billionaires to. Makes me sick now when i think back slaving away for them ****ers.

squod

RoverJames wrote: »

Cowen, I'm not sure about tbh, I think he was incompetent and out of his depth.

The man's a genius. Lets not forget that. Well educated, articulated experienced politician. I've been following this story closely since Sept of 2008.

Look at what Olli Rehn (IMF) had to say for example.....

We need to recall that sovereign debt has not been at the origin of the crisis. Rather, private debt has become public debt. The financial sector has misallocated resources in the economy and then stopped working."

David McWilliams article some months before.

We do know that, for example, the EU Commission gave its opinion on Friday at the wind-up of a Danish bank where it enthusiastically supported the principle of burden sharing.

Here's the quotation from the EU Commission regarding bust Danish banks: "Moreover, burden sharing is ensured by excluding shareholders and subordinated debt holders of the failed bank from any benefit from the aid."

There you have it in black and white. This is what the EU has advised Denmark to do. It clearly states that they won't give any state money to the troubled bank until the subordinated debt holders are burnt

.

Karel lannoo Chief executive Centre for European Policy Studies

Ireland took some decisions which it should never have taken. Given a blanket guarantee to the financial system. Done entirely unilaterally without consulting the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVXi-F6vZ-Q

WoollyRedHat

Trial would be too good for the basterds, they'd find it too easy to wriggle out of it.

Bring in the stocks, arm the citizens with tomatoes and charge them a euro each to throw at them, which can be put back into the exchequer... you'd make a fortune.

squod

squod wrote: »

The man's a genius. Lets not forget that. Well educated, articulated experienced politician..........

He qualified as a solicitor, not exactly genius material surely?
As minister for finance and than Taoiseach I reckon he was out of his depth

nacimroc

Any way a huge civil action by the people of the country could be brought against them ? It would make a mockery of them (and probably do more harm than a criminal court would ever do to them)

patwicklow

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Trial would be too good for the basterds, they'd find it too easy to wriggle out of it.

Bring in the stocks, arm the citizens with tomatoes and charge them a euro each to throw at them, which can be put back into the exchequer... you'd make a fortune.

Id be first in the Que:mad: