Church influence on independent Ireland

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

The dynamics of religious orders were no labour costs and if we have a building we can throw up a school.

So really, the growth was doing education on the cheap.

There was a fair bit of altruism involved too. Edmund Rice who founded the CBS was a widowed merchant looking for a goal. Brother Walfrid who founded Celtic FC was a teacher who had a vocation.

Education was emancipation for the Irish peasant.

That was fairly much the origan of the groups that controlled education in Ireland in the 20th Century.

Was education formed by religious orders everywhere. Maybe England but I'm thinking France in particular, their system is celebrated for being secular in the present day. How did they get to that situation? A timeline of that please:D

HavingCrack

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Was education formed by religious orders everywhere. Maybe England but I'm thinking France in particular, their system is celebrated for being secular in the present day. How did they get to that situation? A timeline of that please:D

England is an interesting one actually, I think a significant amount of early schools were originally set up by royal charter under Edward VII (I think, Henry VIII's son anyway). These were intended to replace the monastic schools which had been closed when Dissolution occured. While these schools would have been quite religious (Edward was bordering on Calvinism with some of his views) they were under royal control rather than that of the religious orders. However up until the early 19th century teachers were expected to be members of religious orders which left them in de facto control of education.

It wasn't until the 1830's that non denominational schools began to appear in any great number and it was not until 1870 that attendance at state funded primary schools became mandatory with some further reforms in the early 1880's (I forget the year ). Local school boards were set up to fund and manage school 'districts' with state support for schools outside of board control, typically public religious schools, in the late 1890's.

I must try dig up my old books on this, I actually read quite a bit about this before as you can guess.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Was education formed by religious orders everywhere. Maybe England but I'm thinking France in particular, their system is celebrated for being secular in the present day. How did they get to that situation? A timeline of that please:D

I was thinking about the Year of the French too & how useless they were and I thought better not to mention it.

The growth in religious orders gave members a certain social status and in France the church was associated with the pre-revolution establishment and in Ireland they were on the side of emancipation.

CDfm

HavingCrack wrote: »

It wasn't until the 1830's that non denominational schools began to appear in any great number and it was not until 1870 that attendance at state funded primary schools became mandatory with some further reforms in the early 1880's (I forget the year ). Local school boards were set up to fund and manage school 'districts' with state support for schools outside of board control, typically public religious schools, in the late 1890's.

I must try dig up my old books on this, I actually read quite a bit about this before as you can guess.

Have you checked out Lewis

A TOPOGRAPHICAL DICTIONARY OF IRELAND

By Samuel Lewis, 1837

http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/

Its searchable so you can see what you can find our what schools were in an are etc in 1837.

Here is a link to Youghal Lace and the nuns and 1847

http://lace.lacefairy.com/Lace/ID/YoughalID.html

A career choice for a hungry famine girl would have been prostitution . So social conditions were a biggie.

pedroeibar1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Was education formed by religious orders everywhere. Maybe England but I'm thinking France in particular, their system is celebrated for being secular in the present day. How did they get to that situation?

I have a superficial knowledge from working (& studying) and my youngest attending school there. In France the separation of church & State was a complex drawn-out process. Various attempts to make a break with all religions were made during the Revolution, again during the Commune and in the late 1800’s, but for most of the 19th century there were four official religions, Catholicism, Judaism, Calvinism and Lutheranism, all obtaining State financial assistance. A series of rows, culminating with one with the Vatican in1904 triggered the law passed in 1905 http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/histoire/eglise-etat/sommaire.asp that finally separated all churches and the state. All religions were covered, but it effectively ‘nailed’ the Roman Catholic Church which had carried huge power and influence. Simplistically speaking, (it’s more complicated) in 1905 existing religious buildings became state property and as such are maintained by the State, the religious can use them for worship purposes only.

The history of education in France is an equally complicated topic. Other religions were generally tolerated until the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, after which Catholicism was the State religion until the Revolution. Generally, even today, the aristocratic ‘ancien regime’ families are Catholic and very proud of it, so there always was conflict between them and the ‘Republican’ element; also the extreme Right is highly Catholic. Sunday Mass is a serious business and a very social occasion, a very dressy affair. While many of the latter will assert otherwise, Charlemagne generally is regarded as the ‘inventor’ of public schools. Free education was provided by many of the religious orders – the prestigious Parisien Lycée Louis le Grand (past pupils Molière, Voltaire and Victor Hugo; Georges Pompidou, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing and Jacques Chirac) was a Jesuit school originally and provided free education, although realistically only the ‘bourgeoisie’ could send their children there. The lois Ferry (from Jules Ferry, ministre de l’instruction publique) in 1881 & 1882 made primary school obligatory, free and secular. These laws were a result of France losing the Franco-Prussion War supposedly because the ordinary German soldier was better educated. Ferry also repealed the laws on public prayers before official business. All teaching was in French, and Breton, Auvergnat, l’Occitan were regarded as patois and forbidden. There are religious schools (AFAIK Clongowes has a Transition year exchange with a J school in Paris) but they are expensive as they are privately funded. Boarding schools in France are seen primarily as institutions for difficult children, not at all the way they are viewed here & in UK.

At third level, France’s top colleges (grandes écoles) of today always were secular – all were founded by the Convention c1794; the École Polytechnique initially served as an engineering school: it remains under the control of the MoD. Other elite colleges, the École Normale Sup and the Conservatoire also date to the Revolution. The training ground for the leaders in politics and the civil service, the École nationale d'administration is much later and was a post-WWII creation by de Gaulle. French students once they have the Bac are entitled to a place in 3rd level. However, entry to the grandes écoles is by a very difficult entrance exam and it is usual for students to do a two-year crammer (prépa) before this.

The Church/State separation topic is raised periodically, often by the Islamic leaders because their mosques are post 1905, whereas church buildings are funded/maintained by the State. To complicate that further, the Christians and the Muslims often join forces in 'getting at' the State over what is seen as State interference in schooling and religious ethics (e.g. Muslim schools had a major row with the State over the hijab).

CDfm

Here is an extract from Lewis in 1837 on Wexford town schools

WEXFORD TOWN SCHOOLS

From A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837

The diocesan school for the see of Ferns, situated to the north of the town, on the road from Ferry-Carrigg, was built in 1800, at the expense of the county, on a piece of ground leased by the late R. Neville rent-free for 30 years, with a right reserved of charging it with a rent not exceeding £50 per annum at the end of that period, which has not since been demanded by the present proprietor, Sir W. R. P. Geary, Bart. The school has accommodation for 40 boarders and 6 daily pupils, and has a large play-ground attached: the master receives a salary of £70, paid by the bishop and the beneficed clergy of the diocese: an additional salary of £100 was paid by the corporation until the discontinuance of the payment of tolls.
The parochial school, founded in 1824, and situated on the glebe of the parish of St. Patrick, is a neat building, consisting of a centre and two wings, and containing two school-rooms, in which 77 boys and 62 girls are instructed; it is supported by the trustees of Erasmus Smith's charity and by voluntary contributions. St. Peter's college originated in a bequest by the Rev. Peter Devereux, P. P. of Kilmore, made during the existence of the penal code, which prohibited students for the priesthood from being educated at home. It consisted of a farm, the proceeds of which were to provide for the education of two ecclesiastical students in a foreign college: the continental war prevented the bequest being applied to its intended purpose, and a large sum accumulated, which, in 1818 was expended in the purchase of land and the erection of the buildings, which are vested in the R. C. bishop of the diocese and two clergymen as trustees.
The college stands on Summer Hill, an elevated situation to the west of the town, and presents the appearance of a large mansion-house, containing accommodation for a president, six professors, and 30 resident pupils, with classrooms for 150 daily pupils: a large addition is now in progress of erection in the Gothic style, to contain a chapel, library, and accommodations for an additional number of professors and pupils; it is to form a quadrangle, the eastern front of which is completed and exhibits a square tower in its centre with octangular turrets at each angle, which will be surmounted with a spire 140 feet high; the interior will be surrounded by a colonnade in the cloister style, enclosing an open area of about 130 feet square.
The course of studies comprises all the gradations of instruction from the rudiments to the highest departments in the ancient and modern languages, mathematics, physics, logic, metaphysics and ethics; and, should the wants of the diocese require it, a course of theology to supersede the necessity of students finishing their education at Maynooth. The fees, the maximum of which is limited to £28 per annum, are at present £25 for resident and £6 for daily pupils. Protestant children are admitted without any interference with their religious principles: the profits of the institution are applied exclusively to charitable purposes.
The Wexford poor school, founded in 1809 by Mr. W. Doran, is attended by upwards of 300 boys. An infants' school, founded in 1830, affords instruction to upwards of 70 children in a building erected for the purpose. The county infirmary, in the north-western part of the town, contains 10 wards and 35 beds; attached to it is a dispensary, with a house for the surgeon. The county fever hospital, erected in 1818 in the south-western suburb, has six wards, containing 60 beds: during the prevalence of cholera it was used for the reception of patients labouring under that disease. The Earl of Shrewsbury has for the last seven years given £50 per annum to this institution.
The house of industry and lunatic asylum was established in 1816 in the old gaol: the former contains two departments, one for the aged and infirm, the other for vagrants and prostitutes: all the inmates able to work are employed; the poor are allowed half of their earnings; vagrants, none. The department for lunatics is now very small, as most of the patients have been removed to the district asylum at Carlow.
The Redmond female orphan house was erected in 1829, at an expense of £1900, being the accumulated proceeds of a bequest of £500 by the late Walter Redmond, of Bettyville, Esq., together with a donation of £200 by John H. Talbot, of Talbot Hall, Esq.; the institution, originally intended for 12 orphans, without religious distinction, but containing accommodations for 34, is maintained by a bequest of £120 per annum from the founder, and is under the superintendence of the R. C. bishop and five other trustees; the children are received at an early age and apprenticed at 16: the house stands on part of St. Peter's College lands.
A savings' bank and a loan fund have also been opened. Some charitable bequests to the poor of Wexford and the adjoining parishes are distributed by the rector, under the names of Tottenham's fund, Browne's fund, and Tait's charity.

http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/W/Wexford-Town-Schools.php