Farmer fined €25,000 for destroying ring fort.

Cork boy 55

What do people think?

JUDGE has imposed a fine of €25,000 on a farmer in north Kerry for irretrievably destroying an ancient ring fort on lands he had bought just two months earlier. Ownership of property was a right, but this right was “not unfettered” and it was qualified by the fact that property was held in trust for the culture of the country, the judge warned.Imposing the “significant penalty”, Judge Carroll Moran said he was taking into consideration a second charge of the destruction of a souterrain, or ancient underground passage, associated with the fort on lands occupied by John O’Mahony (64) at Clashmealcon, Causeway, in February 2008.

The remains of an ancient ring fort and souterrain, or ancient underground passage, at Clashmealcon, Causeway, north Kerry. The fort and passageway date from between AD 500 and 1000


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0303/1224312717627.html

veritable

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What do people think?




The remains of an ancient ring fort and souterrain, or ancient underground passage, at Clashmealcon, Causeway, north Kerry. The fort and passageway date from between AD 500 and 1000


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0303/1224312717627.html

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't!

efb

Check your deeds

redzerologhlen

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What do people think?

JUDGE has imposed a fine of €25,000 on a farmer in north Kerry for irretrievably destroying an ancient ring fort on lands he had bought just two months earlier. Ownership of property was a right, but this right was “not unfettered” and it was qualified by the fact that property was held in trust for the culture of the country, the judge warned.Imposing the “significant penalty”, Judge Carroll Moran said he was taking into consideration a second charge of the destruction of a souterrain, or ancient underground passage, associated with the fort on lands occupied by John O’Mahony (64) at Clashmealcon, Causeway, in February 2008.

The remains of an ancient ring fort and souterrain, or ancient underground passage, at Clashmealcon, Causeway, north Kerry. The fort and passageway date from between AD 500 and 1000


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0303/1224312717627.html

It was good enough for him. There's enough of land in the country without needing to go bulldozing these kinda things.

puzzle factory

25000 wasnt half enough,the land should have been taken off him,and he should have been jailed,at least it would put other idiots off doing the same thing.

R P McMurphy

Should have been given 5 years. He is a fool, first claimed that he did not know the significance of the site, then it transpired he lodged an objection a couple of years ago to planning on the exact same site on the basis of the historical nature of the site. Uncultured savage

Birdnuts

veritable wrote: »

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't!

Would you be happy if he was operating an illegal landfill??

Birdnuts

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Should have been given 5 years. He is a fool, first claimed that he did not know the significance of the site, then it transpired he lodged an objection a couple of years ago to planning on the exact same site on the basis of the historical nature of the site. Uncultured savage

Yeah - he got off lightly IMO. The sad thing is that many non-farmers tend to lump the decent majority in with the likes of this clown:(

redzerologhlen

veritable wrote: »

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What do people think?




The remains of an ancient ring fort and souterrain, or ancient underground passage, at Clashmealcon, Causeway, north Kerry. The fort and passageway date from between AD 500 and 1000


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0303/1224312717627.html

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't!

If that was the case some genius would have flatenned newgrange by now, all our land is sac and we would be up sh&t creek if we cleared a bit of a Moote wall not to mind a ringfort, I'd have no sympathy for him because anyone with two brain cells would know what they are getting themselves in for doing that!!

Tora Bora

Same lad, had previously objected to other peoples planning applications, on the grounds the planned development, was too near this particular site. Since then, he bought the land with the monument and promptly bulldozed it.

Farmer Pudsey

If you look at it all in balance he asked for it first of all he objected to the previous owner planning application on grounds of the ring fort. Then he comes along and bulldozed it.

Anyway we all know it is bad luck to touch one of these Ringforts ( he knows it is now)

pakalasa

The country is full of them. We have one on our land. Nobody, and I mean nobody has ever bothered to even come and look at it. The cows always seem to want to calf in it, for some reason.

moy83

I know 64 isnt awful old , but FFS what was the man hoping to achieve ? I mean how many more years grazing was he hoping to get from the piece of ground the fort was on .

the_syco

pakalasa wrote: »

The country is full of them. We have one on our land. Nobody, and I mean nobody has ever bothered to even come and look at it. The cows always seem to want to calf in it, for some reason.

That's both weird and cool at the same time As if they knew the fairies would protect them

yog1

if there is one of these things on your land do you get anything for it?, grants of some sort because they limit what you can do with the land around them?

i'm not saying what he done was right but i'd be p***d if i had one on my land and was told that i can't touch it, then wasn't aloud anything for the up keep of it, not to mention the health and safety factor of an old building falling down round it's self, some random walker in having a look and hurting themselves and then asking about your insurance

johngalway

He got what he deserved. I've had the luck to get to listen to a local archaeologist who has worked not only all over the country but in different parts of the world too. The history in this country is simply remarkable, these features are irreplaceable. Think how many years these monuments have been here before us, what gives us the right, what makes us so special that we can flatten these things because they're inconvenient to our fleeting existence. I'd love to have some on my few acres but this immediate area is a historical version of wasteland :rolleyes:

bbam

In fairness he shouldn't have touched it... Wasn't it a listed structure or something, maybe they're all listed??

Greed is a bad thing... look where he is now ??

€25K sounds light enough considering what he destroyed.. I think archaeology in Ireland is treated like an optional interest...

Tora Bora

We would all be pissed, if in a thousand years time, some wancer came along a dug up a bundle of bale wrapping, we might have buried somewhere.

Bizzum

On the surface it appears to be an arrogant, ignorant and stupid thing to do.

Figerty

Yah, But he will have a nice little legal bill to go with it as well.

bbam wrote: »

In fairness he shouldn't have touched it... Wasn't it a listed structure or something, maybe they're all listed??

Greed is a bad thing... look where he is now ??

€25K sounds light enough considering what he destroyed.. I think archaeology in Ireland is treated like an optional interest...

Bodacious

He knew he was in for it and declared only 5k taxable income in years after incident, 3 times that prior to incident...damage limitation maybe:(

happyman81

Now people know the fee for demolishing on of these sites. The rest is working out the cost-benefit analysis. He should have received a custodial sentence, placing a price on commiting this act is just stupid.

Zelkova

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't![/Quote]


Of course he can't do anything he wants with the land, he might hold the deeds for his brief and ignorant existence but he hasn't the right to destroy it for future generations.

zom

Birdnuts wrote: »

Would you be happy if he was operating an illegal landfill??

If I own the land I should be allowed to do what I want - grown marihuana, distille my own booz or have casino. Its my own land and no judge can tell me what I do there!!

jill_valentine

zom wrote: »

If I own the land I should be allowed to do what I want - grown marihuana, distille my own booz or have casino. Its my own land and no judge can tell me what I do there!!

If you don't want to have to work around a ring fort, don't own land with a bloody ring fort on it.

It was there long before you were.

rcdk1

veritable wrote: »

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't!

Article 43 of the Constitution says that owning property (including land) is a Fundamental Right:

1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.
2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

However, it goes on to state:

1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.
2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

The preservation of part of our history is in the interests of the "common good".

Bizzum

zom wrote: »

If I own the land I should be allowed to do what I want - grown marihuana, distille my own booz or have casino. Its my own land and no judge can tell me what I do there!!

Whether you should or shouldn't is a moot point. The fact is you aren't allowed do what you want.
This is one of the prices we pay for civilization.

RealExpert

Zelkova is right "he hasn't the right to destroy it for future generations" whether he owns the land or not.Bullyboy tactics didnt work and he paid a high price for his ignorance,what im wondering is who will benefit from the 25,000 fine will all of it be used to reconstruct the fort again or will it be used as pay rises for "ali baba and the forty thieves"

bob charles

I also think that all half built housing estates and construction sites should have preservation orders placed on them because of the significance of them in our recent past.

stoneill

He could have used the ring fort to his advantage - open it to visitors, have a small tea shop and picnic area. Could have made a few quid on it.

The reason people don't visit these places on private land is that they are generally not made feel welcome. There are loads of examples of interesting sites around the country only to have a No Trespassing notice posted.

johngalway

stoneill wrote: »

He could have used the ring fort to his advantage - open it to visitors, have a small tea shop and picnic area. Could have made a few quid on it.

The reason people don't visit these places on private land is that they are generally not made feel welcome. There are loads of examples of interesting sites around the country only to have a No Trespassing notice posted.

I very much doubt any money would be made on it, more likely a large loss. Insurance and some of our good citizens propensity to sue the backsides off people for their own mistakes is mostly to blame in this country for that.

rahin man

Damage to ring forts by Reps...

Has anybody noticed that in a reps plan you had to fence off ring forts.

Reps has ran from the mid 90s till next year (when the last of reps 4 ends)

I do a bit of hedgecutting and i have noticed on farms that over the years the ring forts are dissapearing under scrub and hazel as cattle are not grazing them.

Is it ironic that govt legislation has done more damage in the past18 years than cattle for the past 1000 years?? (or some gob****e in kerry!)

LostCovey

rahin man wrote: »

Damage to ring forts by Reps...

Has anybody noticed that in a reps plan you had to fence off ring forts.

Reps has ran from the mid 90s till next year (when the last of reps 4 ends)

I do a bit of hedgecutting and i have noticed on farms that over the years the ring forts are dissapearing under scrub and hazel as cattle are not grazing them.

Is it ironic that govt legislation has done more damage in the past18 years than cattle for the past 1000 years?? (or some gob****e in kerry!)

Won't scrub protect them? Compared to the damage cattle cause them?

LC

Figerty

Not quite true. When Sile Devlara was in power, all the ringforts in Clare and Galaway were surveyed. They called to our place and asked if they could go see it. They didn't have to ask as far as I know, but did the courtesy of it.

The guy measured the width of it and recorded it was still intact.

pakalasa wrote: »

The country is full of them. We have one on our land. Nobody, and I mean nobody has ever bothered to even come and look at it. The cows always seem to want to calf in it, for some reason.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

veritable wrote: »

I think it's pure madness. The man owns the land. Nobody else has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on his property or to his property. It was funny how the judge said (I'm paraphrasing) "you own this land and can do with it as you please but...." in other words saying, you own but really, you don't!

redzerologhlen

bob charles wrote: »

I also think that all half built housing estates and construction sites should have preservation orders placed on them because of the significance of them in our recent past.

I like your thinking bob, in 100 years time they will be a monument to the high kings of fianna fail in the mythical age of the Celtic tiger when everyone was happy to spend money they didn't have....we are history in the making me thinks

keep going

its funny but i have different views on similar things.i think that fella was a smartass and got just what he deserved but i think the fella who built the yoke out of concrete on top of that island was dead right and its great craic.:D

Farmer Pudsey

I think he got off on the cheap because he objected to the previous owner planning he probally limited the competition for it when it went for sale so he proball got it in the cheap, also most of these ring forts take up 1and1/2 to 2 acres so he dumps the ringfort into the pond another acre of ground.

Now he has 2-3 acres prime land no ring fort in his way and it only cost hom 25,000 euro it cheap land in North Kerry

steddyeddy

zom wrote: »

If I own the land I should be allowed to do what I want - grown marihuana, distille my own booz or have casino. Its my own land and no judge can tell me what I do there!!

These great treasures belong to the people of ireland as a whole.

ruadhri44

Man should have been fined alot more than 25,000. We've done enough damage to our heritage in this country. Its time we took protecting our historical sites seriously.

awaywithyou

the man in question sold some of his herd of cows in listowel mart last wednesday to pay off the fine he owes...

i am from the area and am friendly with one of his sons and to be honest its nothing more than a storm in a teacup.... i agree the man did himself no favours objecting to someone looking for planning because of the fort and then going knocking it himself!

the road this man lives on is known locally as the Garvaghy road... no one talks to anyone on the road and every man living on it is just waiting for the next man to slip up to report him....!

LostCovey

awaywithyou wrote: »

i am from the area and am friendly with one of his sons and to be honest its nothing more than a storm in a teacup....

Well yes, but its a €25,000 storm in a 2,000 year old teacup, and your pal's dad has got the stonking bill, dwarfed I am sure by legal fees - this is Ireland..

I seems so unnecessary, and very funny that he pleaded ignorance to its existence having used the presence of the structure to have a go at somebody else.

The Garvaghy road is a historical footnote now, as will this be, except your friends dad has a big bill and a reputation as a destructive philistine.

The ghosts of the boys who built it are having the last laugh.

Bizzum

LostCovey wrote: »

I seems so unnecessary

Freudian slip?;)

ruadhri44

I have no sympathy for anyone who willfully destroys an historical site. He deserved what he got. No arguments.

LostCovey

Bizzum wrote: »

Freudian slip?;)

Definitely - I is always unnecessary!

Maybe someday they will invent a phone with buttons as big as my fingers, and it will be supplied with a barrow to carry it in!

pakalasa

ruadhri44 wrote: »

I have no sympathy for anyone who willfully destroys an historical site. He deserved what he got. No arguments.

In the parish where I live there are at least 5 castles, yes 5. Nobody gives a damn about them. They are falling down and in a seriously bad state. Maybe it is time we realised their historical importance. It really bugged me that during the Tiger years when all this cheap money was floating around, nobody could see the value in repairing them.

TopTec

pakalasa wrote: »

In the parish where I live there are at least 5 castles, yes 5. Nobody gives a damn about them. They are falling down and in a seriously bad state. .

Isn't there an Irish organisation, similar to the UK's National Trust and English Heritage, that is responsible for sites such as the ones you mention?

TT

Farmer Pudsey

The OPW I think it means the Office for Public Waste

johngalway

pakalasa wrote: »

In the parish where I live there are at least 5 castles, yes 5. Nobody gives a damn about them. They are falling down and in a seriously bad state. Maybe it is time we realised their historical importance. It really bugged me that during the Tiger years when all this cheap money was floating around, nobody could see the value in repairing them.

OPW methinks too.

There's a castle back the road from me, used to be one of Grace O'Malleys I think. There's so much potential there, I'd love to own the place. Only sheep grazing it at the moment.

Effects

Not to go too far off topic but similar enough thing near me. Kenure House, handed to the state in '64 and demolished 14 years later when they couldn't find a buyer. At least the portico remains to remind people.

veritable

Has the OPW ever asked anybody what they want to be preserved? We work hard and have our earning confiscated every month to pay the beings that work in OPW. Surely we should have a say in whether some useless old mound of earth is to be preserved or not. The system makes no sense.