djouce

Maudi

ive read a lot about the 46 french guides crash on djouce...has anybody got or know where id get specific coordinates on where she came down..maybe like grid reference..or any other info as its do with a class im taking...thanks

pansyflower

I'm sure you've come across this?
http://www.wicklowway.com/articles/djouce-plane-crash.php

loobylou

Theres a book written on the subject, makes for an interesting read.
http://books.google.ie/books/about/When_our_plane_hit_the_mountain.html?id=lKFLAAAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
I looked for the remaining wreckage a couple of years ago (without success). From the photos in the book from the time, the crash site seemed to be somewhere to the west of Djouce and not where its marked on the current maps which (I think) put it somewhere on White Hill.

Alun

See here ... http://www.billnelson.ie/?p=57

If you download the first document referenced there, it says ..

Also the exact point of impact when the plane hit the mountain was on a gradual slope about ¼ mile from the summit on the shoulder of the mountain that runs down to the South West. 100 ft higher or lower and the plane would have struck a more severe ridge and certainly would have been catastrophic.

... which would tie in with the photo at the top of the wicklowway.com article, where the ridge heading off to the right of the picture looks like White Hill to me.

Does anyone know for sure if there's any kind of memorial, or wreckage still there?

loobylou

Alun wrote: »

Does anyone know for sure if there's any kind of memorial, or wreckage still there?

I'm in work now so don't have the book to hand, but remember a photo in the book of the author at the crash site,where wreckage was clearly visible.
The photo had been taken relatively recently, say in the last 10-15 years.

BarryD

I haven't seen the book mentioned above but I had always thought/ assumed that since they were generally approaching from the east and hit a shallow slope, that it most likely was on the eastern flank near the top of the ridge. That's approx location I marked on any maps I've published of the area.

However looking at the image referenced above - this indicates the resting site on the west side of the ridge, must be near the crag known as Fox Rock/ Black Crag. Seems to be slopes of White Hill to immediate left and The Barr lower down, Luggala valley beyond. Either the plane hit the east side and skidded/ bounced across or perhaps the pilot reached the Wicklow coast and turned northwards, flying up the coastal strip towards Dublin. But was further inland than he thought and hit the hills. If he was approaching from the west, he was well and truly lost!

I've never seen any wreckage on the hillside but never thought to look that side. If it is near the ridge, it's very unlikely not to have been noticed as that is heavily used. Supposed to be bits of metal used in stopping gaps in fences down in Ballinastoe. I talked to an old farmer nr Roundwood last year and I'm nearly certain he said he had some remains. Only other info. I can add is an account from one of the rescuers, Pat O'Brien. This was published in the 1990 Roundwood & District History Journal, hope they don't object to including here. This more or less ties in with the account Alun references above, except that this account says help was reached in Luggala not 'Mount Maulin' hotel nr Enniskerry (I've never heard of this place, did it exist?). Pat O'Brien says they went up the Piper's Brook which ties in with the Sheepbanks ref - this would be the highest easily reached part of the road.

"The summer of 1946 was a disaster as far as the weather was concerned. The crops were growing in sodden fields. The turf season was dreadful also, and on the l6th August that year, I, like 400 other workers on the bog that day came home saturated with rain. All the young men of that era were in the L.D.F. so when I came home that evening, I changed clothes and put on my L.D.F. uniform to go to the Parochial Hall in Roundwood for drill.
On my way to the hall, a car stopped beside me and I saw that it was Lord Oranmore and Browne of Luggala. He said that there had been a plane crash on Djouce mountain and he asked me if l would come and help in the rescue. I got into his car, Ford V.8 Shooting Brake. He collected 4 or 5 other fellows and we then set out for the crash site.
As it is 44 years ago I cannot remember all their names but I do know that Criostoir Byrne was one of the rescuers. According to Lord Oranmore he said he was sitting inside the window of his house at Luggala when he noticed a figure in uniform crossing the lawn. As the war wasn't long finished he was rather concerned in case it was one of the Nazi S.S. men running from justice. Anyway, it was the Radio Officer from the crashed plane and evidently he had followed the ''Piper's Brook", (the river that flows under Bolehorrigan Bridge), so that was the spot we made for. By the time we reached the river it was getting dark with a heavy mist and fog.
We followed the river up about half way where it branches off to the right, then instead of following the river we continued on up straight The higher up the mountain that we went the denser the fog became. When we reached the mountain top the first thing we heard was the wind whistling through the struts of wire on the tail section of the plane.
When we reached the crash site we could immediately smell the petrol and engine oil. Lord Oranmore shouted "no matches or cigarettes". Criostoir Byrne and I lifted up a girl who was lying in about 6" of engine oil.
We noticed that her face was badly crushed and bruised but she was alive. We lifted her up bodily and started the long arduous walk back down Djouce mountain to the road.
By the time we got near our destination daylight was beginning to break and we could see 6 or 7 ambulances parked atong the road below. We made for the nearest ambulance only to discover that the driver and helper had locked it and gone up the mountain to help in the rescue. We then went to the next ambulance which had a driver and put the girl into it. As far as I can remember most of the victims were taken to St Michael's Hospital in Dun Laoghaire. There were about 22 French Girl Guides on the plane, which was a converted Junkers 88 - a former German bomber plane and thankfully there were no fatalities. Pat O'Brien"

Barry D, EastWest Mapping

Alun

That description of the route they took to the crash site up Pipers Brook certainly ties in with it being to the SW of the summit of Djouce.

I also found the following link http://tinyurl.com/87ln3aq which seem to be pictures uploaded by the author of the book. There's a couple of interesting ones on page 2, the first one being a picture of the valley between Lough Dan and Lough Tay, and an account by someone living there of a plane doing a U-turn and heading north up the valley which again would tie in with a location on the SW side of Djouce. There's also a picture (last one) which purports to be a picture of the mysterious "Sheepbank" house, which I don't recognise ... anyone?

BarryD

Looking at those extra pics, Alun - resting site of plane looks to be on ridge itself as views down both sides, towards Luggala and Roundwood. So looks likely that pilot flying north sees mountain rearing up out of mist and can't avoid. If they were flying from east to west or vice versa, they'd have needed to be most unlucky to just strike the ridge crest. Or I suppose lucky, in terms of surviving!
Sheepbank Lodge – that’s marked on Wicklow East map – top of old back entrance to Luggala Lodge, still ruins there. In the forest, just off the road - you wouldn't notice it passing by.

loobylou

Home now, got the book and one of the photos from the French Foreign Ministry clearly shows the wreckage slightly to the west of the ridge. You can see the metal fenceposts behind it on the eastern side, the stumps of which are still there today.
There are also eyewitness accounts of the plane coming up the Cloghoge valley between Lough Dan and Lough Tay, although visibility was extremely poor at the time.
It was the EastWest map I referred to earlier that I felt had it marked in the wrong place. Great maps all the same, thanks Barry.

Alun

Is that the 7th picture on that link I put in my post above? If so, then I agree, it must be just to the left of the track leading to the summit of Djouce from where the boardwalk turns off. I thought I remembered there being some remains of those metal fenceposts beside that track, but I wasn't sure.

loobylou

Yes, thats the one.

From the book.
At the foot of the mountain from which it took its name, the Mount Maulin Hotel, concealed from the road and set in a picturesque wooded spot, was a popular stopping off point for locals and walkers alike. It commanded a fine view of the Sugarloaf to the southeast and the Scalp beyond Enniskerry. Known locally as the Silver Fox Farm,it had long since ceased breeding beavers and foxes. Its owners, Mr and Mrs Patrick Hogan, had bought the hotel as a going concern in the twenties.

BarryD

Thanks Loobylou, as mentioned above I had only seen one rather vague picture before and the description in Walking in Wicklow by JB Malone - he puts it at 2100 ft. His description of boggy terrain seemed to fit the slopes lower down where the boardwalk is now as you head across to White Hill.

But those pictures and other text clearly point to somewhere higher on the spur up Djouce. A little above where the boardwalk turns right, there is a wee flattening in the spur - that'd be around 640m (2100 ft) contour. Or perhaps it's at higher terrace, about 660m. Either way, it looks definitely to be on the west side of the spur but not very far, less than 100m. As Alun and I agreed, might well be possible to identify by bringing the photos up and matching to ground.

I've amended my map detail, shifting the text up onto the spur area but I haven't inserted any point feature, exactly identifying spot, pending checking. Always good to sort these little details out!

One other oddity, the Bill Nelson account above says the plane was flying to Dublin. JB Malone says to Powerscourt "almost within sight of their goal". There are scout/ guide campsites near Enniskerry, could the plane have been heading for the airstrip in Powerscourt, assuming that was there then? What does book say?

Alun

According to this it was en-route to Dublin Airport ...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19460812-0

BarryD

Re Mount Maulin Hotel, I'll ask a few people in Glencree if they know of it. That reads above like it was somewhere around Ballyreagh/ Knockree but that's hardly 5 miles from Enniskerry.

Regardless, it seems much more likely that they would have dropped down in Luggala for help as noted in the account above. Maybe the plane's officers split up, some heading towards down west and others north? But the location outlined above would have been a much longer trek..

JB's book was written 1964, so 18 years after event - maybe he got mixed up. But if the plane was going to Powerscourt, then flight crew were in the right ballpark.

loobylou

They dropped down to a cottage in Deerpark and raised the alarm. The cottage owner went to the Mount Maulin Hotel to summon help.
Rescuers set out from both sides, ie Enniskerry and Lugalla.
There was some dispute at the time over who reached the crash site first. It would appear it was those coming from Enniskerry but the victims were carried down to the above mentioned Sheepbank Lodge on the Lugalla side, (by piggyback in many cases) and from there to hospital in Dublin.

Maudi

Alun wrote: »

That description of the route they took to the crash site up Pipers Brook certainly ties in with it being to the SW of the summit of Djouce.

I also found the following link http://tinyurl.com/87ln3aq which seem to be pictures uploaded by the author of the book. There's a couple of interesting ones on page 2, the first one being a picture of the valley between Lough Dan and Lough Tay, and an account by someone living there of a plane doing a U-turn and heading north up the valley which again would tie in with a location on the SW side of Djouce. There's also a picture (last one) which purports to be a picture of the mysterious "Sheepbank" house, which I don't recognise ... anyone?

thanks alun..that certsinly looks like luggala in the background..with the cliffs and maybe some beach showing..i could definitely find it by bringing those photos and matching them to the real thing...thanks everyone..

Alun

I was thinking of popping up there tomorrow myself actually armed with the photos, a map and my GPS. I've no idea if there's anything there to see that will confirm if I'm actually in the right place though. I'll report back if I find anything.

Alun

Well, I've just come back from a very cold and windy Djouce, and I think I've got a rough idea of where the site is. I didn't want to hang around too long up there as I was afraid my map and photos would blow away in the wind, but I took a couple of photos trying to recreate as closely as possible two of the photos on the web, and got pretty close, I think.

I'll get the photos of the camera and play around with them to crop them to the same area as the web ones, and also geotag them so I know where I was standing when I took them. From that I should be able to get a reasonable guess as to where the wreck was. I'll report back later when I've had time to analyse what I have.

Maudi

Alun wrote: »

Well, I've just come back from a very cold and windy Djouce, and I think I've got a rough idea of where the site is. I didn't want to hang around too long up there as I was afraid my map and photos would blow away in the wind, but I took a couple of photos trying to recreate as closely as possible two of the photos on the web, and got pretty close, I think.

I'll get the photos of the camera and play around with them to crop them to the same area as the web ones, and also geotag them so I know where I was standing when I took them. From that I should be able to get a reasonable guess as to where the wreck was. I'll report back later when I've had time to analyse what I have.

cool.cant wsit to see em...im hoping to get up sat or sun.

Alun

OK, most of the photos I took were a bit inconclusive, mainly because it was a bit misty in the distance, but if you look at the 5th image on http://tinyurl.com/87ln3aq and compare it with this photo I took, I reckon it's a pretty good match ...



This places the crash site at somewhere near O 17745 09865, or about 40m to the left of the path up Djouce 300m after the boardwalk takes a right turn.

I had a good look around but couldn't find any sign of any wreckage, or any memorial of any sort.

BarryD

I presume that's from the book, Loobylou? Seems to contradict Pat O'Brien's account above that radio officer descended to Luggala Lodge? Re Mount Maulin Hotel, appears to have possibly been near the entrance to the Deerpark and Waterfall.

Sorry, missed a few posts - out all day mapping, pleasant enough on the Barrow! Above in ref to comment previous page re where help was sought.

loobylou

BarryD wrote: »

I presume that's from the book, Loobylou? Seems to contradict Pat O'Brien's account above that radio officer descended to Luggala Lodge? Re Mount Maulin Hotel, appears to have possibly been near the entrance to the Deerpark and Waterfall.

Sorry, missed a few posts - out all day mapping, pleasant enough on the Barrow! Above in ref to comment previous page re where help was sought.

Yep, from the book. It also has some photos from the crash site which are not in Aluns link, they might add something to the search. Photo too of the author in 2003 with a large piece of wreckage with a distinctive view of forestry in background.
As an aside there is also a pic of what was the Mount Maulin Hotel. It should be easy to identify if you know the area. I've a feeling its now the houses/cottages between the waterfall entrance gate and Crone carpark.

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

This places the crash site at somewhere near O 17745 09865, or about 40m to the left of the path up Djouce 300m after the boardwalk takes a right turn.

Hi Alun, looks good although I know from experience, looking for other things with photos, that you can move about a fair bit and still get similar views. But the flat area and proximity to old fence line look good! On the old image looking to east/south east towards Devils Glen etc., is that White Hill below - did that match the view? Anyway, here's a plot of that reading.
http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o590/thefield2/?action=view&current=djouceaircrashsitemap.jpg

Maudi

Alun wrote: »

OK, most of the photos I took were a bit inconclusive, mainly because it was a bit misty in the distance, but if you look at the 5th image on http://tinyurl.com/87ln3aq and compare it with this photo I took, I reckon it's a pretty good match ...



This places the crash site at somewhere near O 17745 09865, or about 40m to the left of the path up Djouce 300m after the boardwalk takes a right turn.

I had a good look around but couldn't find any sign of any wreckage, or any memorial of any sort.

wow. thats pretty strange flikin from old pic to new one..even using the tail for a ref point towards the back ground hills..i think you've got it pretty much bang on.

Alun

BarryD wrote: »

Hi Alun, looks good although I know from experience, looking for other things with photos, that you can move about a fair bit and still get similar views. But the flat area and proximity to old fence line look good! On the old image looking to east/south east towards Devils Glen etc., is that White Hill below - did that match the view? Anyway, here's a plot of that reading.
http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o590/thefield2/?action=view&current=djouceaircrashsitemap.jpg

Looking over towards Devils Glen etc. was a bit more difficult to match well, partly down to the fact that it was quite misty in the distance, so difficult to make out details on the photos I took. I'll have another go tomorrow and see what I can do.

Alun

I've done one of the view towards White Hill, to match the photo on the wicklowway.com website.



I've tried in vain to get the view towards Devils Glen etc. to match up but I don't think I was close enough to the ridge when I took that photo. In fact the more I look at it, the more I think the site should be just a little bit closer to the path than I have it. I'll have to go back up when it's a nice warm day and I can spend a bit more time up there.

BarryD

I guess that the ridge to left must have been blocking your view a little? Also if you look at Scarr in your shot above and compare to original, I think it would match slightly better to the hills behind it, if you moved a little left?
It's also interesting to see the hills at Ballinrush/ Ballinafunshoge there in old shot and see how the forestry has rounded off their bumps - noticeably more irregular on the 1946 photo.

mister gullible

Mount Maulin Hotel was a popular hotel for those 'in the know' in the 40's-50's period. It was not however open for very long. Some film stars are supposed to have stayed there and fashionable types from Dublin such as Madam Jammet also visited. The now private house is located just past Powerscourt Waterfall in the Crone wood direction on the upper side of the road. It is not visible from the nearest point of road but is clearly visible from Ballinagee crossroads looking a little to the left.
My understanding is that a survivor/s from the plane managed to somehow make their way down the mountain past Powerscourt Waterfall and reached help in the valley below. Help was summoned from the Mount Maulin Hotel owned then (and still) by the Hogans. This was for a short time the site of a fur farm (prior to Hogan ownership) and was known locally, as mentioned by another poster, as 'The Silver Fox Farm'. The United Irishmen General Joseph Holt is supposed to have surrendered in the old kitchen of the same house.
It appears that rescue parties approached from both the Enniskerry (Powerscourt) side and the Roundwood side. The Roundwood chancers :rolleyes:claimed credit for the rescue and it seems there was some debate as to who reached the plane first to make the rescue..

Maudi

mister gullible wrote: »

Mount Maulin Hotel was a popular hotel for those 'in the know' in the 40's-50's period. It was not however open for very long. Some film stars are supposed to have stayed there and fashionable types from Dublin such as Madam Jammet also visited. The now private house is located just past Powerscourt Waterfall in the Crone wood direction on the upper side of the road. It is not visible from the nearest point of road but is clearly visible from Ballinagee crossroads looking a little to the left.
My understanding is that a survivor/s from the plane managed to somehow make their way down the mountain past Powerscourt Waterfall and reached help in the valley below. Help was summoned from the Mount Maulin Hotel owned then (and still) by the Hogans. This was for a short time the site of a fur farm (prior to Hogan ownership) and was known locally, as mentioned by another poster, as 'The Silver Fox Farm'. The United Irishmen General Joseph Holt is supposed to have surrendered in the old kitchen of the same house.
It appears that rescue parties approached from both the Enniskerry (Powerscourt) side and the Roundwood side. The Roundwood chancers :rolleyes:claimed credit for the rescue and it seems there was some debate as to who reached the plane first to make the rescue..

Ive been up three times and third time lucky using the photos on here and loobylous book and sighting up peaks mysrlf i finally stood in the spot where she came down..when you see the long slow rise of the hill and the cushion of turf and heather..the pilot almost unintentionally glided the plane down...

loobylou

Congrats on finding it. I've been up there a couple of times since this thread started but without any luck. Do you have the coordinates?

Maudi

loobylou wrote: »

Congrats on finding it. I've been up there a couple of times since this thread started but without any luck. Do you have the coordinates?

First time up..it lashed rain out of nowhere..second time heavy mist put an end to it..third time up i bagged it...not to good with coordinates though...i could show you..i think i also have it on map my walk app....