Bord na Móna workers vote for industrial action

Degsy

Sleepy wrote: »

Please, please, tell me you're trolling?

If not, do you want to let us know which branch of the public sector you're a part of? I'm hoping it's not education based on the lack of logic you're demonstrating here...

Well let me give you an example.

A friend of mine was on contract with Google for about a year..when her contract looked like it wouldnt be renewed she sent out a few CV's to different places,fair enough.

Eventually she was offered a position in a recruitment company for a few grand less than her wages with google and she felt so offended by the idea that she should be asked to work for less money that she signed on and has been on the dole ever since..over a year ago now.

Another person in the same sort of field was told that there were jobs going in Ikea..."No way i'm working in a shop,not with MY qualifications" she said. Signed on and moved back with her parents.

The country is full of people like that,to say nothing of the professional students,spending decades in college and never actually intending to do a day's work.

Degsy

Less than 2.5% of applicants for 100 jobs were Irish.

ardmacha

youtube the docu about irish unemployent in the 1970's..the big employer in those days was cinemas...

I think we need a link or some stats to show that cinemas were an important employer in the 1970s....

Degsy

ardmacha wrote: »

I think we need a link or some stats to show that cinemas were an important employer in the 1970s....

Well i was around in the 70's and there were cinemas everywhere..there were dozens in Dublin and even the smallest regional town had at least one cinema,business was good too,especially at weekends.

In those days you didnt have online streaming or bittorrent or dvd's..if you wanted to see a film,you went to the cinema.

Is that good enough for ya?

Degsy

Degsy wrote: »

Incorrect and very possibly libelous.

Wouldn't pass as libelous if it's a commonly held opinion.

Which it is.

Curly Judge

I worked for a company who took on local Bord na Mona workers when they took voluntary redundancy after the local bog was wound down.
To a man they were the worst bunch of workers I have ever come across.
Lazy, totally union orientated, trouble making layabouts.
Because of the shortage of labor during that time we also took on some Polish workers.
Most of the Poles are still there but the Bord na Mona boys were got rid of at the first opportunity.
Utter wasters!

Sleepy

Degsy wrote: »

Well let me give you an example.

A friend of mine was on contract with Google for about a year..when her contract looked like it wouldnt be renewed she sent out a few CV's to different places,fair enough.

Eventually she was offered a position in a recruitment company for a few grand less than her wages with google and she felt so offended by the idea that she should be asked to work for less money that she signed on and has been on the dole ever since..over a year ago now.

Another person in the same sort of field was told that there were jobs going in Ikea..."No way i'm working in a shop,not with MY qualifications" she said. Signed on and moved back with her parents.

The country is full of people like that,to say nothing of the professional students,spending decades in college and never actually intending to do a day's work.

So because your friend is a lazy, up herself twit we should raise taxes... *RIGHT*...

antoobrien

Degsy wrote: »

Well let me give you an example.

A friend of mine was on contract with Google for about a year..when her contract looked like it wouldnt be renewed she sent out a few CV's to different places,fair enough.

Eventually she was offered a position in a recruitment company for a few grand less than her wages with google and she felt so offended by the idea that she should be asked to work for less money that she signed on and has been on the dole ever since..over a year ago now.

Another person in the same sort of field was told that there were jobs going in Ikea..."No way i'm working in a shop,not with MY qualifications" she said. Signed on and moved back with her parents.

The country is full of people like that,to say nothing of the professional students,spending decades in college and never actually intending to do a day's work.

My brother, a plumber, got laid off two years ago. It took him a few weeks, but he eventually got a job working in a factory (nothing to do with using his plumbing qualification).

A family friend in a similar situation decided to go back to college and has 3 years done in an arts degree.

I know plenty of people that decided they'd take the dole instead.

I guess it depends on the person. The interesting things is that if you look at the emigration figures it's believed that about 150,000 have gone home since the start of the recession. Since it generally not the high end jobs that are being lost, I'd say the foreigners that are leaving are do so in order to find work.

creedp

mfitzy wrote: »

No that would be because they usually don't have a father or uncle twice removed working there (in public sector) already . The unions do a good job of keeping out foreigners that "might" undermine their cushy wages and conditions.

In fairness this would also qualify in the top 10 of "This has to be the most stupid post on boards".

K-9

Cut out the "stupid posts on Boards" comments please and keep on topic.

AlmightyCushion

Degsy wrote: »

Intel this,multinationals that...everybody is obsessed with the multinational IT sector and nobody seems to be interested in indiginous irish companies that offer sustainable goods and services.

Foreign companies like that come and go,and when they go everybody whinges and wants further reductions to PS pay.

If you think Intel is going to be forever providing jobs think again..youtube the docu about irish unemployent in the 1970's..the big employer in those days was cinemas...where are they now? Ten years ago the big empoyers were construction and trades..where are they now?

Just a thought..

I agree we need to encourage and grow our indigenous companies but the multi-nationals make up a big part of our economy right now. Even if we had very few multi-nationals here, a massive income tax hike would cause people to either leave or ask for wage increases. Although, I do find it funny that you say foreign companies come and go yet the two examples you give would have comprised of mostly Irish companies.

woodoo

Degsy wrote: »

Less than 2.5% of applicants for 100 jobs were Irish.

That's why the dole needs to be cut. And it should be €100 for anyone living with mammy.

sarumite

deleted

road_high

creedp wrote: »

In fairness this would also qualify in the top 10 of "This has to be the most stupid post on boards".

Hit a nerve did I? The truth hurts sometimes I'm afraid
Anyone who thinks nepotism isn't/wasn't a big part of the Irish public sector really needs to get their heads out of the sand. More so even in the protected dinosaurs of ESB and BnM.

RichardAnd

mfitzy wrote: »

Hit a nerve did I? The truth hurts sometimes I'm afraid
Anyone who thinks nepotism isn't/wasn't a big part of the Irish public sector really needs to get their heads out of the sand. More so even in the protected dinosaurs of ESB and BnM.

I've never been involved in any sort of boorish posting with regard to any civil servant but I have to agree, at least partially, that nepotism exists within the public service. I am of this this opinion not because of hearsay but because I have seen nepotism first hand within the civil service when I was employed in the Dept. of Justice. Many people there were given their jobs because their relatives were already employed in the same department and for no other reason besides. I know this because they readily admitted it when I asked them casually about their history in the organisation. They saw nothing wrong with it but rather, they simply regarded it as a "done thing" and thought no more of it.

That was however, only true for people hired in the 70s and 80s so I can't speak for what went on in the 90s. I myself got my job without inside help so that, I can adduce that not every ps job is given out to a nephew or niece. Nepotism also is not confined to the public service, it takes place through out Ireland and the rest of the world. I believe it will always exist because to be honest, 90% of people will only complain about nepotism when it works against them.

golden lane

RichardAnd wrote: »

I've never been involved in any sort of boorish posting with regard to any civil servant but I have to agree, at least partially, that nepotism exists within the public service. I am of this this opinion not because of hearsay but because I have seen nepotism first hand within the civil service when I was employed in the Dept. of Justice. Many people there were given their jobs because their relatives were already employed in the same department and for no other reason besides. I know this because they readily admitted it when I asked them casually about their history in the organisation. They saw nothing wrong with it but rather, they simply regarded it as a "done thing" and thought no more of it.

That was however, only true for people hired in the 70s and 80s so I can't speak for what went on in the 90s. I myself got my job without inside help so that, I can adduce that not every ps job is given out to a nephew or niece. Nepotism also is not confined to the public service, it takes place through out Ireland and the rest of the world. I believe it will always exist because to be honest, 90% of people will only complain about nepotism when it works against them.

nepotism was always rife in ireland.......and i'm sure it still is....

guinnes was run on nepotism.......

RichardAnd

golden lane wrote: »

nepotism was always rife in ireland.......and i'm sure it still is....

guinnes was run on nepotism.......

Indeed but it's also been rampant in countries like Italy and Spain. That's true abut Guinness, the could be said about alot of the large, home-grown employers in Ireland in the olden days. It's not so bad any more but but there are still places like the National Library of Ireland that are infamous for being closed shops.

creedp

mfitzy wrote: »

Hit a nerve did I? The truth hurts sometimes I'm afraid
Anyone who thinks nepotism isn't/wasn't a big part of the Irish public sector really needs to get their heads out of the sand. More so even in the protected dinosaurs of ESB and BnM.

Well I'm glad I've been informed by someone in the know how to enter the hallowed halls of the public sector and here was I thinking there were open competitions where everyone could apply .. but there you are ..

Degsy

creedp wrote: »

Well I'm glad I've been informed by someone in the know how to enter the hallowed halls of the public sector and here was I thinking there were open competitions where everyone could apply .. but there you are ..

No..the ads you used to see in the Irish Times are all a sham,those jobs were filled before the ads were even printed.

What happens is they staff the vacancies that exist with brothers,uncles,sisters and cousins.

Then the 4000 people who appled for the job are told that they werent succesfull...the unions are there to make sure that nobody outside of close family can ever get a PS job,and they keep out foreigners because they're better workers.

creedp

Degsy wrote: »

No..the ads you used to see in the Irish Times are all a sham,those jobs were filled before the ads were even printed.

What happens is they staff the vacancies that exist with brothers,uncles,sisters and cousins.

Then the 4000 people who appled for the job are told that they werent succesfull...the unions are there to make sure that nobody outside of close family can ever get a PS job,and they keep out foreigners because they're better workers.

Is this a real case scenario? C'mon! this stuff can't be for real! The most laughable thing about all of this is that you would seriously begin to believe that employment in the private sector is based entirely on ability ...

Sleepy

I've personally been told that a job I was being offered "would obviously have to be advertised but not to worry about that...". In the end, I took up a different offer instead but it certainly happens at least some of the time that the positions being advertised have already been filled.

Now, to be fair to the guy I was dealing with, this wasn't exactly a case of nepotism, I'm one of maybe 4 or 5 people in the country with the knowledge and experience of a particular system to be able to hit the ground running in the position in question and he just wanted to secure my services but it certainly shows that the open competitions aren't always as open as one might imagine them to be.

And yes, there's *LOADS* of nepotism in the private sector too. But that's neither here nor there because at the end of the day the hiring practices of a company aren't really anyone's business outside of the shareholders of that company once they're legal (i.e. not discriminating on age/sex/race etc.)

Also worth pointing out, Mr Ahern was never taken to task for his "defence" of many of his appointments:

I might have appointed somebody but I appointed them because they were friends, not because of anything they had given me.

In much the same way as Capone was finally taken down for tax evasion, I'd like to have see Ahern prosecuted for his publicly admission of nepotism.

Cookie_Monster

creedp wrote: »

Is this a real case scenario? C'mon! this stuff can't be for real! The most laughable thing about all of this is that you would seriously begin to believe that employment in the private sector is based entirely on ability ...

of course it is and private companies do it all the time too. Jobs are advertised when they already know they have a suitable internal candidate.

creedp

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is and private companies do it all the time too. Jobs are advertised when they already know they have a suitable internal candidate.

Yes of course it may be done for some specific jobs ... but its not the case for mainstrean employment in the PS not that thats a big issue at the moment. I'm not defending recruitment practices here but I'm sick of listening to the specific examples being trotted out and these then generalised across an entire sector. Having said that sure I suppose it makes good reading and gets plenty of vocal support so what's the harm. Kee it going lads .. we need something to cheer about

Sleepy

I've never seen private companies bother to advertise when they can fill a position internally: that'd be a ridiculous waste of money. Private companies are obliged not to discriminate between candidates based on race/sex/age etc. but they're under no obligation to hold open competition for jobs.

Brussels Sprout

Degsy wrote: »

Intel this,multinationals that...everybody is obsessed with the multinational IT sector and nobody seems to be interested in indiginous irish companies that offer sustainable goods and services.

Foreign companies like that come and go,and when they go everybody whinges and wants further reductions to PS pay.

Of course the flip side to this is that when times are good in the private sector, such as in the late 90's, the PS whinge about increases to their pay.

I might add that one of the biggest impediments to the growth of indigenous Irish companies is the crap services provided by enterprise boards and various government departments throughout the country.

creedp

Sleepy wrote: »

I've never seen private companies bother to advertise when they can fill a position internally: that'd be a ridiculous waste of money. Private companies are obliged not to discriminate between candidates based on race/sex/age etc. but they're under no obligation to hold open competition for jobs.

Of course you're right but them again therein lies the problem for the PS though isn't .. PS is obliged to advertise even if they have a suitable canditate and the process is a waste of time and money. And of course if the PS didn't advertise in order to achieve savings the same people would criticise it for not advertising .. Different animal and therefore not directly comparable with a private company ... pity this isn't taken into account more often!

Degsy

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I might add that one of the biggest impediments to the growth of indigenous Irish companies is the crap services provided by enterprise boards and various government departments throughout the country.

Ah..so its not greed,incompetence,overcharging and nepotism that cause private companies to fail..its the Government and the PS workers?

It all makes perfect sense now.
:rolleyes:

I must remember that the next time i'm in a pub thats overcharging or the next time i ring a builder who fails to show up...It's MY fault if the business fails.

:rolleyes:

sarumite

Degsy wrote: »

Ah..so its not greed,incompetence,overcharging and nepotism that cause private companies to fail..its the Government and the PS workers?

It all makes perfect sense now.
:rolleyes:

I must remember that the next time i'm in a pub thats overcharging or the next time i ring a builder who fails to show up...It's MY fault if the business fails.

:rolleyes:

Its a little bit from both columns and several others columns as well. Good companies can fail and poorly run ones survive depending on the market they are operating within. The government has a bad reputation for late payments which certainly doesn't help.

eigrod

Degsy wrote: »

Ah..so its not greed,incompetence,overcharging and nepotism that cause private companies to fail..its the Government and the PS workers?

It all makes perfect sense now.
:rolleyes:

I must remember that the next time i'm in a pub thats overcharging or the next time i ring a builder who fails to show up...It's MY fault if the business fails.

:rolleyes:

Exactly. Were it not for all that pesky red tape that Revenue put in the way, for example YOU MUST PAY US THE MONEY YOU OWE US, then Mick Wallace would still be running a successful building business and still be a law abiding citizen.

sarumite

eigrod wrote: »

Exactly. Were it not for all that pesky red tape that Revenue put in the way, for example YOU MUST PAY US THE MONEY YOU OWE US, then Mick Wallace would still be running a successful building business and still be a law abiding citizen.

One could also question the role of the relevant planning authorities and the financial regulators in the collapse of the construction sector (and hence the downfall of his company). There really is enough blame to go around.

ardmacha

One could also question the role of the relevant planning authorities and the financial regulators in the collapse of the construction sector (and hence the downfall of his company).

One "could also question" the role of Gardai when crime happens. This does not in any way excuse criminals.

There really is enough blame to go around.

Blame everyone. Always a good way to divert blame.

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

One "could also question" the role of Gardai when crime happens. This does not in any way excuse criminals.

Unless the building companies were doing so without planning permission etc, the above analogy doesn't fit.

Blame everyone. Always a good way to divert blame.

So is blaming everyone else other than oneself.

ressem

eigrod wrote: »

Exactly. Were it not for all that pesky red tape that Revenue put in the way, for example YOU MUST PAY US THE MONEY YOU OWE US, then Mick Wallace would still be running a successful building business and still be a law abiding citizen.

Revenue, no. They're better than most. Wallace found that just want the money, and that they aren't vindictive.
But the compulsory central statistics office BS doesn't help. For small companies an external party sometimes needs to be used to understand the terms, e.g. the IT one. Why is it a prosecutable offence for failing to report to the government that you are using cloud computing or not?

Or how about this...
Haemochromatisis is a fairly common condition in Ireland. Treatment is to give a unit of blood every few months.

However treatment in Ireland is to go to a hospital.
Get the blood iron measurement done.
Revisit the hospital. Wait for a few hours on a bed until a consultant puts a needle in your arm. Wait 10 minutes to fill a bag with blood. Remove the needle. Sit for a few minutes just in case.

€600 charged to the VHI and 3 hours of time.
(€90 for the consultant, €510 for use of the bed)

You'll have noticed that this is the same procedure as when a blood donation is made, and one doctor with the assistance of the nurses can extract a unit from dozens of people per hour.

But someone with haemochromatisis cannot use the IBTS to carry out the procedure. Why not?

Up until recently, even a GP wasn't to carry out the procedure (and due to the GP charge the patient takes the expense if they choose this option though the VHI could save 75%+ by covering GP treatment with knock on saving for everyone else [employer time, hospital bed, consultant wasted on trivial procedure etc ])

In this country today there seems to be huge reticence to have adaptable procedures, or share procedures / facilities. Is this new or was it always this way?

ardmacha

Unless the building companies were doing so without planning permission etc, the above analogy doesn't fit.

Wallace was not complying with the tax regulations.

But there is a general point about personal responsibility. If you drive your car too fast and crash then it is your fault. Perhaps the government might have erected a "slow" sign, but that does not in any way diminish your responsibility.

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

But there is a general point about personal responsibility. If you drive your car too fast and crash then it is your fault. Perhaps the government might have erected a "slow" sign, but that does not in any way diminish your responsibility.

A building company cannot build without the explicit approval and indeed permission of the planning authorities. Again, your example excludes the fact that the planning authorities (as well as the construction companies, banks and politicans) were willful participants in the construction bubble.

antoobrien

ressem wrote: »

But someone with haemochromatisis cannot use the IBTS to carry out the procedure. Why not?

Surely you can see the potential problems of cross contamination there. A bag accidentally gets put in the wrong box etc. We've had enough problems in this country between anti-d, hep-c et al without potentially creating another problem because we're penny pinching.

Besides the bloodmobile come about what once a month or two - what's to say that the schedule will suit the patient's needs.

No, we need to look to create local medical centers that can deal with situations like this without requiring outpatient/day patient facilities.

ressem

antoobrien wrote: »

Surely you can see the potential problems of cross contamination there. A bag accidentally gets put in the wrong box etc. We've had enough problems in this country between anti-d, hep-c et al without potentially creating another problem because we're penny pinching.

Besides the bloodmobile come about what once a month or two - what's to say that the schedule will suit the patient's needs.

No, we need to look to create local medical centers that can deal with situations like this without requiring outpatient/day patient facilities.

Haemochromatosis is excessive iron being stored in the body through a genetic disorder, not a contagious one. 1 in 200 people is estimated to have the condition. No risk over other patients so no cross contamination risk above everyone else.
And the blood has been barcoded and must be tested in the lab for actual threats for everyone.
Though I appear to be wrong in that the iron test used by the IBTS doesn't identify high levels of iron so presumably the IBTS is accidentally helping those who haven't had their DNA tested by sending to the UK and waiting 3 months.

(Study Finds Hemochromatosis Patients' Blood is as Safe as Other Donated Blood
May Help Alleviate Blood Shortage http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/sep2001/nhlbi-25.htm)

markpb

How on earth did this thread go so badly off-topic? In what world is haemochromatosis related to BnM staff going on strike.

juan.kerr

markpb wrote: »

How on earth did this thread go so badly off-topic? In what world is haemochromatosis related to BnM staff going on strike.

Maybe it accounts for excessive 'sick leave entitlements'?

antoobrien

ressem wrote: »

Haemochromatosis is excessive iron being stored in the body through a genetic disorder, not a contagious one.

I never said it was contagious, but seriously can you see the potential for problems there? There is a reason that controls were brought in for blood donations.

If the Blood transfusion board decided they can give blood and the clinic schedule suits then I don't see a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is the "oh this is a convenient service lets use that" attitude. The service has to be safe for everybody.

kearney13

Does anyone here actually realise that BNM do a lot for this country there supply of peat powers a good percentage of this country, they are trying to built more and more windfarms, have a black start power station, so who was saying they wouldn't be missed if they went on strike!!!

I know it looks bad them asking for a pay rise that was meant to be got 4 years ago, but the flat rate in BNM is not as great as anyone thinks, I know there is gonna be talk they should all be glad to have a job blah blah blah...

People are just pig ignorant thinking BNM do nothing put take peat out of the ground and should be sold and all this, take your time and read up about them and see how this company is trying to change for the better.

ressem

The labour court overturned the pay freeze last year

But the Court found there was ‘no justifiable reason’ why staff ‘should have been treated less favourably than those in comparable State Enterprises and none was advanced by the company.’

They did turn a profit and returned a (reduced) dividend to the state of about 3 million.
The pension fund deficit has reduced from 51 million in '08 to 13 million. And the CEO at least had the tact to forego the bonus for last year.

Problem is how a 10 million payment of backdated pay will affect the company.

(and apologies for my ot rant earlier.)

Cookie_Monster

But the Court found there was ‘no justifiable reason’ why staff ‘should have been treated less favourably than those in comparable State Enterprises and none was advanced by the company

so they should be paid more just because other state agencies are paid more, that's a pretty dubious reason.

Nody

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so they should be paid more just because other state agencies are paid more, that's a pretty dubious reason.

Not sure why your're surprised; there has always been a noticable tilt towards employees in the labour court. Anything and everything can be used against the employeer but not the employee in terms of evidence; this also reflects how most decisions come out from what I've seen.

Rabidlamb

My wife used work for BnM & still stays in contact with many of her old colleagues.
Outside the union & the old institutional heads there is zero support for this action.
All their greed has served to do is highlight to the media how the semi-state haven't received any cuts to date.

allibastor

Just a question on Bord na Mona. Should they not be obliged as a semi state to advertise any and all vacancies to the outside world. I only ask cause i went for a job there as referred to by a friend, i have all the skills and experience for it as i worked there till recently, was told the job is only open to internal staff.

surly that aint right is it