What does it take to be...

pickarooney

Just a thread that might help less knowledgeable fans gain some insight from the more seasoned rugby watchers into the different speciality positions on the pitch.

I think there are few more underrated and misunderstood positions than tight-head prop. The casual viewer (and to a lesser extent, anyone who hasn't played as a front-row forward) could watch matches all day long and still not see exactly what the #3 contributes or why top players in this position are like hen's teeth.

So the first question is, simply, what makes a good tight-head prop?

Rule 1: Lock a scrum.
This means being able to negate a devious loosehead's ability to drop a bind, bore in etc. This is by no means an easy task. Imagine trying to balance a bicycle while there's a guy pushing you backwards and sideways. Core strength is essential here, and technique is king. A lot of good tighthead props can not only successfully prevent a loosehead from "getting at them", but can actually be pro-active in their scrummaging. Locking a loosehead into a position, before overwhelming them and getting a shove on, or twisting a scrum slightly so as to present your scrum half with "safer" ball.

Rule 2: Support every forward play
A tighthead shouldn't see himself too often in the wide channels. He's more than likely going to spend the entire game picking himself off the ground and going at the next ruck / maul until there's no time left. He'll rarely be a pacey individual, and as such his defensive duties are usually in the central areas (around breakdowns). Hayes was a fantastic pillar defender. He could single handedly prevent pick and drives becoming mauls by being the sole tackler to take the player down. In offence, you want this guy driving every maul, his strength and ability to position his body (a lá scrummaging) means that he should be at the forefront of most of your mauls. When doing a job well, he's almost invisible in open play, yet will be grappling/wrestling with opposition forwards for most of the game.

Rule 3: Don't try the fancy stuff
We don't want to see a TH trying to get his arms out of the tackle to offload a ball. He can play the most boring attack rugby when he actually ever receives ball. Getting to ground safely and ensuring quick recycling is more than enough for the average TH. You are picked to break down walls all day, not carve them open. You wouldn't use a wrecking ball to dismantle a glass house would you?

I'm sure others will be able to add to this. Great idea for a thread.

castie

Deleted User wrote: »

Rule 1: Lock a scrum.
This means being able to negate a devious loosehead's ability to drop a bind, bore in etc. This is by no means an easy task. Imagine trying to balance a bicycle while there's a guy pushing you backwards and sideways. Core strength is essential here, and technique is king. A lot of good tighthead props can not only successfully prevent a loosehead from "getting at them", but can actually be pro-active in their scrummaging. Locking a loosehead into a position, before overwhelming them and getting a shove on, or twisting a scrum slightly so as to present your scrum half with "safer" ball.

Rule 2: Support every forward play
A tighthead shouldn't see himself too often in the wide channels. He's more than likely going to spend the entire game picking himself off the ground and going at the next ruck / maul until there's no time left. He'll rarely be a pacey individual, and as such his defensive duties are usually in the central areas (around breakdowns). Hayes was a fantastic pillar defender. He could single handedly prevent pick and drives becoming mauls by being the sole tackler to take the player down. In offence, you want this guy driving every maul, his strength and ability to position his body (a lá scrummaging) means that he should be at the forefront of most of your mauls. When doing a job well, he's almost invisible in open play, yet will be grappling/wrestling with opposition forwards for most of the game.

Rule 3: Don't try the fancy stuff
We don't want to see a TH trying to get his arms out of the tackle to offload a ball. He can play the most boring attack rugby when he actually ever receives ball. Getting to ground safely and ensuring quick recycling is more than enough for the average TH. You are picked to break down walls all day, not carve them open. You wouldn't use a wrecking ball to dismantle a glass house would you?

I'm sure others will be able to add to this. Great idea for a thread.

Im offended!

irishbucsfan

There are plenty of ways to be a dominant scrummaging tighthead. But generally it seems you'll see the technical guys come to the fore at the top level as power evens out (don't write off Declan Fitzpatrick just yet!)

I think to really understand the TH role you need to understand the whole front row to some extent. The tighthead is scrummaging against both the opposition hooker and the opposition loosehead. If you have a strong scrummaging hooker in your team it means things are much easier as it can make things a 1v1 contest. If you have a weak scrummaging hooker it can make winning a scrum impossible for even the best tighthead as if the opposition hooker can get under yours then it can be a straight 2v1. Similarly if the opposition loosehead is weak then the tighthead can angle in and drive theit hooker up, meaning his hooker can attack the opposition tighthead, driving him up.

It is all like a giant house of fat unfit cards. A weakness anywhere across the unit and you're done, hence Cronins lack of gametime when he was with Connacht.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to be a dominant scrummaging tighthead. But generally it seems you'll see the technical guys come to the fore at the top level as power evens out (don't write off Declan Fitzpatrick just yet!)

I think to really understand the TH role you need to understand the whole front row to some extent. The tighthead is scrummaging against both the opposition hooker and the opposition loosehead. If you have a strong scrummaging hooker in your team it means things are much easier as it can make things a 1v1 contest. If you have a weak scrummaging hooker it can make winning a scrum impossible for even the best tighthead as if the opposition hooker can get under yours then it can be a straight 2v1. Similarly if the opposition loosehead is weak then the tighthead can angle in and drive theit hooker up, meaning his hooker can attack the opposition tighthead, driving him up.

It is all like a giant house of fat unfit cards. A weakness anywhere across the unit and you're done, hence Cronins lack of gametime when he was with Connacht.

Ah here, unfit? Immobile, perhaps, but unfit is a tad unfair!

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ah here, unfit? Immobile, perhaps, but unfit is a tad unfair!

Definitely a better word for it!

I've never played in the front row myself, only taken this in at scrummaging sessions and from chatting to teammate props. I'm sure there are tightheads around here somewhere who can add to the discussion far more than I ever could.

mikedragon32

As a TH myself, Emmet has it pretty much spot on. The one thing I would say (and this may be more to do with my own ability) is that a TH can't get to support EVERY forward play.

Chances are, if you're picking yourself up from the bottom of one ruck, you probably won't make it to the next, so my MO was always to get to the next one after that, unless there was a chance of a sneaky run at the fringe with a pop-pass!

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Rule 1: Lock a scrum.
This means being able to negate a devious loosehead's ability to drop a bind, bore in etc. This is by no means an easy task. Imagine trying to balance a bicycle while there's a guy pushing you backwards and sideways. Core strength is essential here, and technique is king. A lot of good tighthead props can not only successfully prevent a loosehead from "getting at them", but can actually be pro-active in their scrummaging. Locking a loosehead into a position, before overwhelming them and getting a shove on, or twisting a scrum slightly so as to present your scrum half with "safer" ball.

Rule 2: Support every forward play
A tighthead shouldn't see himself too often in the wide channels. He's more than likely going to spend the entire game picking himself off the ground and going at the next ruck / maul until there's no time left. He'll rarely be a pacey individual, and as such his defensive duties are usually in the central areas (around breakdowns). Hayes was a fantastic pillar defender. He could single handedly prevent pick and drives becoming mauls by being the sole tackler to take the player down. In offence, you want this guy driving every maul, his strength and ability to position his body (a lá scrummaging) means that he should be at the forefront of most of your mauls. When doing a job well, he's almost invisible in open play, yet will be grappling/wrestling with opposition forwards for most of the game.

Rule 3: Don't try the fancy stuff
We don't want to see a TH trying to get his arms out of the tackle to offload a ball. He can play the most boring attack rugby when he actually ever receives ball. Getting to ground safely and ensuring quick recycling is more than enough for the average TH. You are picked to break down walls all day, not carve them open. You wouldn't use a wrecking ball to dismantle a glass house would you?

I'm sure others will be able to add to this. Great idea for a thread.

I dunno about Rule 3 there Emmett...watching Ross' inside pass to Kearney for Ruddocks try in the Bath game was highly entertaining! :pac:

Really good summary though.

I take it the thread will cover each position over time. Definitely a great idea pickarooney. I never played myself but have been watching for about 12/13 years now. And it's amazing how much I still don't know, or at least don't fully appreciate. Especially in the scrum!

GerM

Good points, Emmet.

Generally, you'll find that tightheads are broader up top. As they take the hit on both sides, they'll often have more upper body power than their loose counterpart (who tends to have big legs, arse and drives through and up with them). A rule of thumb is that the tighthead is trying to keep/force the scrum to keep down as the loosehead (and hooker) try to force him upwards. You'll often see a tighthead going up in the scrum as the loosehead gets a turn and drives under him and upwards. Watch the scrum after 54 minutes in last year's semi final for VdM doing this text book against Census Johnston. Johnston was outdone technically and VdM manouevered his shoulder under the Samoan's and forced him upwards. They need to take the hit and keep things straight and steady. If they can do that then they can turn the screw with a secondary shove.

Around the park, as far as I'm concerned, is bonus territory for a tighthead. Their job is to lock out that scrum. If they can carry, great. They need to make their rucks and tackles as any player should but the majority of tightheads are judged on how they fare in the set piece. Matt Hampson summed it up well in his book when talking about what was going through his mind as he engaged on that fateful last scrum. "I was going to smash his f*cking head through his arse". The top tightheads live for the scrum and relish the challenge. They're a weird bunch. Scrums are bloody exhausting, something that is often overlooked. Imagine giving it everything you have for 10 seconds repeatedly. Now if there are 4 or 5 resets after an hour of rugby, you'll be shattered.

As they're generally extremely strong in terms of upper body strength, they're also normally a central lifter in the line out.

matthew8

I don't think THs should be averse to running around with it. Of course, their build may not be suited to it, but Nathan White is a perfectly good TH/ball-carrier.

matthew8

matthew8 wrote: »

I don't think THs should be averse to running around with it. Of course, their build may not be suited to it, but Nathan White is a perfectly good TH/ball-carrier.

aye, but tis a bonus. Not a requisite to be a good TH.

For instance, a hooker that can take dropgoals is a bonus, but it's certainly not in his job description.

(Keith Wood's DG attempt at Lansdowne Road was one of the worst I've ever seen )

pickarooney

Pretty solid summation of the TH role, I reckon. Any more input is, of course welcome but meanwhile let's move on to the number 8.

I think everyone asks themselves at some stage why this position has no name (in English at least, and "third-row centre" is more of a definition of where (s)he stands than what (s)he does) and whether that fact translates into something of a free role.
It's a position that requires skills and strengths in a variety of areas, no question, so what is it that distinguishes a #8 from a 6 and a 7 and a good #8 from an average one?

davegrohl48

To be a good 8, I would say it is exemplified by players like Heaslip/Harinordoquy when on form.

- Leg strength to provide push in the scrum
- Possibility of a lineout option is generally preferred so 6'3"+ and not overly heavy
- Pace to drive off base of the scrum
- Ability to sidestep to make gains past first tackler
- Enough stamina to present yourself as a consistent ball carrier for 80 mins
- Good footwork to control the ball at the base of the scrum
- Best handling of the forwards as you have to pass it more often generally
- Awareness and timing to hand off tacklers
- Confidence to make good decisions when in high pressure defensive/offensive scrums

Fishooks12

I'm a 15 myself so I'll try and map out some of the more important points a good fullback should follow

1. Positioning is everything, leave space behind at your peril. You can be easily punished by a good ten

2. Confidence is a must. A full back lacking confidence under the high ball will be targeted without mercy

3. Communication with 14 and 11. A good full back will be barking and roaring at his wingers constantly, making sure they're in position, getting them to drop back etc..

4. Know when to counter attack and know when to kick, decision making in other words. Nothing worse than a full back trying to run from his own 22 surrounded by opposition

5. I find that the best full backs are also the most dangerous broken field runners. A good full back should be able to punish a lazy chasing line

6. the ability to win your own Garryowens is always a bonus

Cardinal Richelieu

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm a 15 myself so I'll try and map out some of the more important points a good fullback should follow

1. Positioning is everything, leave space behind at your peril. You can be easily punished by a good ten

2. Confidence is a must. A full back lacking confidence under the high ball will be targeted without mercy

3. Communication with 14 and 11. A good full back will be barking and roaring at his wingers constantly, making sure they're in position, getting them to drop back etc..

4. Know when to counter attack and know when to kick, decision making in other words. Nothing worse than a full back trying to run from his own 22 surrounded by opposition

5. I find that the best full backs are also the most dangerous broken field runners. A good full back should be able to punish a lazy chasing line

6. the ability to win your own Garryowens is always a bonus

Good clearing kick? We all seen some great fullbacks but when they go to kick they are lucky to get 10m without slicing it.

mackg

Great topic! I was just going to ask about a few of these myself. Just wondering if ye could do 6 and 7 after 8? Having never played the game the nature of these positions confuses me a bit, especially when it comes to all the talk about Ireland's back row.

boynesider

I'm a flanker who has played to a good enough level and who has occasionally played at number 8, so I reckon I know a little bit about the position and I hope this helps.

You could spend all day talking abut the ideal requirements of every position on the field, but these are a few of the fundamentals of what you would expect from a good number 8.

1. Ball carrying- As you would expect an outhalf to be a good-kicker or a scrumhalf to be a good passer, the ability to carry ball well is the defining characteristic of a genuine eightman. This means being an almost guaranteed source of go-forward ball in the tight exchanges, and being comfortable running with the ball when the game gets looser or in the wider channels. (theoretically a good 8 should also be a good centre IMO). For these reasons the number 8 is usually a pretty impressive physical specimen, as he should have high levels of speed, strength, power and endurance relative to whatever level he is playing at in order to be effective at that level. Sheer bulk is also pretty much a requirement meaning that the 8 is normally the heaviest of the backrowers. (lack of bulk being my own downfall at 8).

2. Good hands/ footballing ability- A player can have all of the physical attributes in the world but he won't be a good number 8 unless he is able to read the game well and be completely comfortable in possession of the ball. He should be a reassuring, ball handling presence in the team, controlling at the back of the scrum, taking quick taps, and generally being something of a go to man for the team in possession. For these reasons I would say that decision making and keeping a calm(ish) head is expected of a number 8 more so than the other forwards. Ideally you would also want him to be competent at the tail of the line-out, although I don't think this is always required if your flankers are good in this department.

3 And finally, fulfilling all the duties of a backrower- This is absolutely crucial. I have seen many show-boaters play at 8 who were good at numbers 1 and 2 above but who completely neglected the tough, selfless, unglamorous work required to win a game of rugby. You have to tackle to your limits, fight at every breakdown you can get to and bust a gut to support your teammates. Jamie Heaslip is the model of what you would want from a number 8 in this regard. He is fantastic at winning important turnovers and works incredibly hard to get to rucks when other players in his position would stand off waiting for others to do the dirty work (the fact that SOB is effectively an 8 as well obviously allows him to do this).

Overall I would describe it as an eye-catching, iconic position, which is pretty much off limits to all but the genetically blessed. You can be successful in most other positions on the field through hard work and a bit of skill, or through being big, but to be a quality 8 you will need all of these and hardly any weakness in your physical armory (strength, speed, size, stamina, athleticism). This is probably why most number 8's I know seem to have the biggest heads on the team also!

boynesider

mackg wrote: »

Great topic! I was just going to ask about a few of these myself. Just wondering if ye could do 6 and 7 after 8? Having never played the game the nature of these positions confuses me a bit, especially when it comes to all the talk about Ireland's back row.

It's a bit late for me to start writing an essay on the current irish back-row, so I will just say briefly that I think it's an issue which has been very much exaggerated.

There is a perceived 'imbalance' in our back-row, arising from an obsession with the so called 'poacher' at 7, which is something I just don't buy into really. The backrow issue is being well amplified in the media by the usual suspects, but I think its only serving to obscure the real problems in the Irish team. Others will no doubt disagree with this viewpoint however

Sindri

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm a 15 myself so I'll try and map out some of the more important points a good fullback should follow

1. Positioning is everything, leave space behind at your peril. You can be easily punished by a good ten

2. Confidence is a must. A full back lacking confidence under the high ball will be targeted without mercy

3. Communication with 14 and 11. A good full back will be barking and roaring at his wingers constantly, making sure they're in position, getting them to drop back etc..

4. Know when to counter attack and know when to kick, decision making in other words. Nothing worse than a full back trying to run from his own 22 surrounded by opposition

5. I find that the best full backs are also the most dangerous broken field runners. A good full back should be able to punish a lazy chasing line

6. the ability to win your own Garryowens is always a bonus

Good points. Sums up everything about fullback but the boredom.

Also, if I could add another point, but you may have already covered it somewhat, a good full back must have the ability to read a game, predict and anticipate what will happen.

You stand at the back of the pitch with the best view of your teams defence and your opponents offence. Using this you have to be able to anticipate the play as well as know where to attack and where you may likely have to defend. You must basically be able to know what will happen phases before it will happen. When I play there I have a list of every eventuality in any given situation which I run through in my head because defending from full back is one of the most difficult places to defend from. You usually have no support, no touch line to help, and in my case, someone much bigger than you running at you. You have to close the space and only give him the option of being tackled which, IMHO, is an art form in itself worthy of the musée de Louvre. Us full back are always under appreciated. Just there to clean up the mess the rest of them have created.

And you are absolutely correct about the counter attacking and being the best broken play attacker. A god full back will always take advantage of an unorganized defence. We relish the chance.

pickarooney

What about the number 8's duties at scrum time?

irishbucsfan

Back row play is my own poison of choice.

A lot of people seem to apply a similar format to their back rows. You see a big physical 6, a 7 who is generally a defensive breakdown expert and then an 8 who is a ball carrier. The truth is you don't NEED those things to be great in any of the individual back row positions.

The point of the back row is to offer a group of larger more mobile breakaway forwards. More physical than the backs yet more mobile than the tight 5. There are a lot of functions they can be asked to perform as a unit, but generally they'll need to offer breakdown expertise (both offensively and defensively), ball carrying, strong defense, and are involved to some extent in both set pieces.

To be clear, the back row positions are decided only by where they play in the scrum. The 6 is positioned on the blindside of the scrum, closest to the touchline at all times, the 7 is positioned on the openside, responsible for the larger openside area, and the 8 in the middle bound onto both 2nd rows, responsible for supporting both in defense and controlling the ball in attack.*

Generally this has decided the type of player that each player is. The 6 will be larger and more physical at the expense of pace because he has less ground to cover. The 7 will be quicker and better at open field tackling or offer a threat at the breakdown, all of which is more useful on the open side of the scrum. The 8 needs to have good instincts, to know when to break with the ball and when to leave it in a dominant scrum. He also needs to be a strong ball carrier who is very strong in the technical aspects of ball carrying (ie placement, body position) In defense he will need to know which direction to cover and be able to identify his defensive targets quickly and decisively.

The backrows contribution to the lineout can be big or small depending on the pack. In Leinster you'll see Kevin McLoughlin jumping at the front and Jamie Heaslip jumping at the tail. Whereas in another team you might see very little involvement from the backrow as jumpers, in which case they'll mostly lift, with the smaller 7 generally covering the tail defense.

Then there's the breakdown. The breakdown is more of an art than a science, thanks to the beauty of differing interpretations from different referees. Generally the referees will thoroughly inform the players what they're focusing on in each game (and maybe if this information was made available to the watching public there'd be less negativity). From there it becomes a game of pushing the laws as far as possible without getting caught. The back row need to clear out consistently as well as attacking opposition ball. It doesn't really matter who does what here so long as everything is getting done. Jamie Heaslip was effectively Ireland's "7" during the world cup and was probably better at it than anyone we've had in recent years. Sean O'Brien is also busy on the deck although he gives away more penalties which probably is down to a lack of judgement, something that will hopefully disappear with time and experience. Stephen Ferris is probably too big to ever be a "fretcher" or "spoiler" but his strength at the breakdown is obvious!

So when people talk about 6, 7, or 8 individually they're not really doing justice to the unit as a whole. People saying Ireland needed a natural openside were wrong, people saying Jamie Heaslip hasn't been playing well couldn't be more wrong. Our back row is the best in our hemisphere for sure and only (in my opinion) behind New Zealand's in world rugby. Although Italy are excellent in fairness to them (Barbieri, Zanni and Parisse would all start for most club teams in the world).

I've glossed over some other stuff here, open field defense etc.



*In some countries like South Africa they swap the openside and blindsides numbers so that the openside wears 6 and the blindside wears 7.

RE: No 8.

Requisites to play: Strength, Agility and above all Brains

IMO, 6,7,8 are usually the best athletes on the pitch. By that I mean they'd be the most likely to be able to take part in a decathlon and compete vs people training all year round. They each have a role to play within a "back row unit", but depending on the system, these tasks can be shared. In France they've played with left/right flankers as well so that both flankers get exposure to both sides of the game within the same 80mins!

The individual differences of the No 8. below;

The number 8 is the brains of the operation. Think of him as the out half of the pack. He chooses the timing that the ball is released from the scrum, decides when to keep it in etc. He has to have vision, and can't simply be a crash ball loon.

Often this means knowing to pick, take five steps and pop back into a 6/7 coming through the hole he's left. These moves are easily read if the 8 is not a natural footballer and doesn't have great hands.

An 8 needs to learn to read the game like a full back, they are often asked to cover deep when a full back / winger has been sucked into a ruck. As a result they need to be aware of more than their own "pack" position for the entire game.

In terms of the minute-to-minute tasks of an 8, they can blend in with the rest of the back row, and sometimes even the loosehead/hooker's roles. But they almost always should be offering support to the first receiver after any breakdown that they aren't implicitly involved in.

8 is a position that requires you to know a hell of a lot about gameflow, and guessing what the opposition are up to next. It is the QB of the pack, and a thinking 8 is the closest link to a "stereotypical forward" and a "stereotypical back".

Eoin

Sindri wrote: »

Good points. Sums up everything about fullback but the boredom.

Also, if I could add another point, but you may have already covered it somewhat, a good full back must have the ability to read a game, predict and anticipate what will happen.

This is one thing that always struck me about Girvan Dempsey. His impressive turn of pace was often disguised because he always seemed to be in the right place. But all he is really recognised for is "a safe pair of hands".

mikedragon32

Eoin wrote: »

This is one thing that always struck me about Girvan Dempsey. His impressive turn of pace was often disguised because he always seemed to be in the right place. But all he is really recognised for is "a safe pair of hands".

Maybe here, Eoin. I have family in Wales and during Dempsey's stint in green he was the guy they always talked about, even ahead of BOD. If you're watching on telly, I guess all you do see is the safe hands, but you know yourself he doesn't get to the right place by teleportation, but you only see that when you're at a game!

Eoin

mikedragon32 wrote: »

If you're watching on telly, I guess all you do see is the safe hands, but you know yourself he doesn't get to the right place by teleportation, but you only see that when you're at a game!

Yeah, that's a fair point. He was a very smart player though; great attacking lines. He never looked like he was running as fast as he was (until the latter years when he was caught for speed once or twice).

Edit - sort of, but not really, on-topic:

Despite having played in the pack all my playing life, I think this is the first time I've heard of the distinction between tight-head and loose-head second rows.

Obviously people have been talking about the benefits of having "workhorses" like DOC beside less stocky guys like POC (rather than having Cullen and POC playing together) - but not the differences between what side of the scrum they play on.

There is a big difference between scrummaging at tight-head and loose-head - does the same apply to second rows?

JustinDee

Eoin wrote: »

This is one thing that always struck me about Girvan Dempsey. His impressive turn of pace was often disguised because he always seemed to be in the right place. But all he is really recognised for is "a safe pair of hands".

...and for being the fastest back in the squad.

TheVoodoo

Eoin wrote: »

There is a big difference between scrummaging at tight-head and loose-head - does the same apply to second rows?

Martin Bayfield offered the best description I could find.

The number four is more likely to be the tight-head lock. Most of the pressure from the scrum comes through this side, you need your cornerstone on the tight-head side. He locks out the scrum, he's the cornerstone and will usually be pretty stationary while applying a lot of the pressure

Eoin

JustinDee wrote: »

...and for being the fastest back in the squad.

I don't think he is really recognised for that though. I've actually made that point myself before (wasn't it Matt Williams who said it?), and people couldn't believe it - especially given that Hickie was in the squad at that stage too.

TheVoodoo wrote: »

Martin Bayfield offered the best description I could find.

Does that mean different technique, or just that the 4 needs more strength?

TheVoodoo

Eoin wrote: »

Does that mean different technique, or just that the 4 needs more strength?

From my days in the second row, the Loosehead side second row (LSR) would usually have been the taller, and moved a lot more than the tighthead lock(TSR)- who took the pressure. Obviously you'd drive more into the prop, allowing the hooker more freedom to move. Due to the front row positioning, the loosehead side will be easier for a second row to move with.

A lot of the time, they'll shunt and reverse the rolls, so the LSR will hold and the TSR will not stay 'fixed' allowing for a quick wheel, which can cause the prop on the opposing side to come up under the reversed pressure.

Granted, I moved out of the second row about 5 years ago, I assume this practice was not just restricted to my team.

ray jay

How about the role of the hooker around the park and during defensive set pieces?

GerM

JustinDee wrote: »

...and for being the fastest back in the squad.

I was always under the impression that Hickie was fastest but Dempsey, despite many people's perceptions, was close behind and could burn BOD, Horgan and Murphy in sprints.

Eoin

TheVoodoo wrote: »

From my days in the second row, the Loosehead side second row (LSR) would usually have been the taller, and moved a lot more than the tighthead lock(TSR)- who took the pressure. Obviously you'd drive more into the prop, allowing the hooker more freedom to move. Due to the front row positioning, the loosehead side will be easier for a second row to move with.

A lot of the time, they'll shunt and reverse the rolls, so the LSR will hold and the TSR will not stay 'fixed' allowing for a quick wheel, which can cause the prop on the opposing side to come up under the reversed pressure.

That's a great summary - I really should have known that by now given I'm a front row (and have filled in at second row on a few occasions!).

durkadurka

Brilliant thread.

Eoin

Deleted User wrote: »

Rule 3: Don't try the fancy stuff
We don't want to see a TH trying to get his arms out of the tackle to offload a ball. He can play the most boring attack rugby when he actually ever receives ball. Getting to ground safely and ensuring quick recycling is more than enough for the average TH. You are picked to break down walls all day, not carve them open. You wouldn't use a wrecking ball to dismantle a glass house would you?

What I would say to all props is get the set-piece sorted first before trying to play Fijian stye rugby. Absolutely nothing wrong with a prop having and using their ball skills once they can do their primary job first.

Blut2

Eoin wrote: »

What I would say to all props is get the set-piece sorted first before trying to play Fijian stye rugby. Absolutely nothing wrong with a prop having and using their ball skills once they can do their primary job first.

I believe the medical term for that condition is "Mushy Buckley" syndrome.

RoundBox11

irishbucsfan wrote: »

*In some countries like South Africa they swap the openside and blindsides numbers so that the openside wears 6 and the blindside wears 7.

Ah right! I always wondered why Heinrich Brussow wore 6 but was said to be an openside!

RoundBox11

irishbucsfan wrote: »

*In some countries like South Africa they swap the openside and blindsides numbers so that the openside wears 6 and the blindside wears 7.

Ah right! I always wondered why Heinrich Brussow wore 6 but was said to be an openside!

pickarooney

Does anyone here play inside centre? I think it's a position where many players get a bit of stick simply for not being a flashy 13 or winger. On the face of it there shouldn't be a huge difference between the attributes of the centres but, for example I don't think I've ever seen a 10 who played 13 (maybe Trinh-Duc?) whereas a 10 will, for better or worse, often move to 12 and back (O'Connor, Hook, Sexton, Henson...)

Is it possible to speak of centres individually or should they be treated as a complementary pair?

CIARAN_BOYLE

pickarooney wrote: »

Does anyone here play inside centre? I think it's a position where many players get a bit of stick simply for not being a flashy 13 or winger. On the face of it there shouldn't be a huge difference between the attributes of the centres but, for example I don't think I've ever seen a 10 who played 13 (maybe Trinh-Duc?) whereas a 10 will, for better or worse, often move to 12 and back (O'Connor, Hook, Sexton, Henson...)

Is it possible to speak of centres individually or should they be treated as a complementary pair?

If you want underage players who moved from 10 to 13 then you could think of BOD and EOM

I'm pretty sure Henson and Hook have played decent amounts of time at 13.

The key thing to consider is that there are massively different types of 12. There is your 2nd 5/8s to use a SH term. These are guys who can also play 10 and are play making options. These include players known as a 10 such as O'Connor Hook Sexton and Henson as well lads like Paddy Wallace.

Luke Marshall up in Ulster and JJ Hanrahan seem to be 2nd 5/8s as well.

Then you have your run up the middle maybe offload types. These tend to be better defenders as well. Take your McFadden Darcy Mafi and Spence but don't tend to be kicking options or creative players.

Sometimes you have a 13 outside one of these that is a creative type buts its a lot rarer. BOD and EOM for example. If you look at Leinster this year the wingers get alot more ball when EOM is on the field at 13 then when McFadden is at 13.

I think you should have a distributing center in the pair or the wingers often get starved of ball.

Shelflife

I think the examples so far here highlight the subtle yet crucial differences between different but similar positions, tighthead v loosehead, 4 v 5 , back row esp 6 and 7, 12 and 13 and 11 and 14, all very similar but different.

this is why is frustrates me that players are played out of position ( ie where they play week in week out) at international level. sure the good ones will get away with it but a small mistake at that level will cost a try.

putting wingers at centre or a 12 at 13 or a 6 in at 7, their natural play will default to their natural position, an extreme example was bergamasco at scrumhalf fot italy, his natural reactiona was to hit the rucks meaning that there was never a scrum half available.

in the same way if you normally drift left and then suddenly you have to not do this anymore it creates confusion.

yes there will be times when a gap has to be filled, but personally i prefer to see players in their natural/usual postion.

Great thead btw.

chris85

ray jay wrote: »

How about the role of the hooker around the park and during defensive set pieces?

At lineout time the hooker could be at a variety of locations defensively. He could be between touch and the 5 or be in the lineout as a lifter which often happens. I play hooker and I am generally used as a lifter and depending how our defensive lineout is going and what the other team are doing for their lineouts I may end up at scrumhalf or at blindside.

At scrum, obviously in the middle and make it to 2nd breakdown after the ball gets out of the scrum. I generally am more of a cleaner at the breakdown and just getting the ball clean for our scrummie. Closer to their line I would become more of a carrier around the fringes.

skregs

Be a fat guy

RoundBox11

Could anyone explain the ins and outs of being a hooker please?

Apart from throwing into lineouts and hooking the ball back in the scrum, what are the distinct roles of a hooker? As in defense and attack. Also in contributing to the scrum once the ball has been hooked back.

prospect

Not a question about a specific position but....


Why, when restarting a game, does the kicker always bounce the ball two or three times on its end?

Pudsy33

prospect wrote: »

Not a question about a specific position but....


Why, when restarting a game, does the kicker always bounce the ball two or three times on its end?

Well the restart is a drop kick, so they're just testing the bounce of the ball I guess. I'm a 10 and have never done it though.

part time punk

Can anyone tell me why props (and also second rows) generally play to an older age and it's quite unusual to see a top level younger prop like Cian Healy? I know scrummaging at the top level is very technical and the skills must take a long time master but surely the same applies to all the other players' skills. Given the physicality of those positions it just seems counter intuitive to me that they can play to a higher age than a lot of other players.

GerM

part time punk wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why props (and also second rows) generally play to an older age and it's quite unusual to see a top level younger prop like Cian Healy? I know scrummaging at the top level is very technical and the skills must take a long time master but surely the same applies to all the other players' skills. Given the physicality of those positions it just seems counter intuitive to me that they can play to a higher age than a lot of other players.

They're much more strength based positions that require conditioning and technique. Backs can make a major impact on pace and sharpness alone which youngsters have naturally. You'll often see them come in at 19 or 20 years old in the back three. You don't see as many centres come through until they're a year or two older. It takes several years to develop the core strength and conditioning required in the forward pack. Look at how far Cian Healy has come through since his debut. He's a very different player in terms of all round game. The strength and conditioning is far slower to wane than the speed and the sharpness that is required in the three quarter line. A front five player who is managed carefully and not flogged each week should play well into his thirties.

Otacon

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Well the restart is a drop kick, so they're just testing the bounce of the ball I guess. I'm a 10 and have never done it though.

...and that's why you don't play for Ireland Pudsy.

:pac:

CIARAN_BOYLE

GerM wrote: »

They're much more strength based positions that require conditioning and technique. Backs can make a major impact on pace and sharpness alone which youngsters have naturally. You'll often see them come in at 19 or 20 years old in the back three. You don't see as many centres come through until they're a year or two older. It takes several years to develop the core strength and conditioning required in the forward pack. Look at how far Cian Healy has come through since his debut. He's a very different player in terms of all round game. The strength and conditioning is far slower to wane than the speed and the sharpness that is required in the three quarter line. A front five player who is managed carefully and not flogged each week should play well into his thirties.

Agreed. You notice the same thing with Heavyweight boxers, they keep going to a older age than lighter boxers because like tight five rugby players its more strength based than skill based.

mogwai81

Just wondering the main differences between 14 and 11. Apart from a left footed 11 finding it easier to keep a return kick in play.

CIARAN_BOYLE

mogwai81 wrote: »

Just wondering the main differences between 14 and 11. Apart from a left footed 11 finding it easier to keep a return kick in play.

The 11 plays on the left touchline. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

The 14 plays on the right side of the field. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

For some reason 14s tend to be bigger bulkier players than 11s but I'm not really sure why that is.