Can Garda order for dogs to be put down ?

Discodog

sincere113 wrote: »

Do yourself a favour and read back over my posts .

sincere113 wrote: »

I also don't care if he comes tail wagging - its caused damage and therefore I'll shoot it. And if I find out who's dog it is I'll bring you your dead dog in one hand and the other out for compensation!

If he comes tail wagging then you can apprehend the dog without needing to shoot it.

sincere113 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that you could sue me for for shooting your dog on my land after it causing damage to my stock?

Secondly do you think a guard would arrest me for animal cruelty after shooting your dog after it causing damage to my stock?

Yes. The law is clear. You can only shoot to prevent damage occurring at that time. You cannot execute the dog afterwards.

No. I would have to take out a private prosecution. You would have to prove that you had no alternative but to shoot the dog. The law is pretty much the same in the UK & I know of farmers that have been successfully prosecuted.

I do accept that some farmers are not seeking to shoot dogs but the law is worded to ensure that they are very strict conditions as to when it is lawful.

kildare.17hmr

falabo wrote: »

some people might sue you, others might make sure you'll never come near them again .... one day you'll shoot the wrong person's pet and you will never forget it !

Your really talking alot of **** on your own thread...

A farmer is not gonna get sued for shooting a dog thats worrying livestock tail wagging or not and in sheep farming country the guards will be well up on roaming dogs because the farmers will report any pets they shoot.

No one wants to shoot a dog but if it has to be done it has to be done. Its rarely a viscious dog that causes trouble with livestock its the ones who think its great crack chasing sheep and run them into sheep wire fences, walls or worse a road! Ever come accross a sheep caught in a wire fence? A dog that does it once will do it again if the owner does not keep them under control so if a dog gets shot for this reason the owner has no one to blame but themselves

kildare.17hmr

seamus wrote: »

[My guess is that unless they're a dead aim with a scoped hunting rifle

and thats all that is, a guess

most farmers approach the dog to within 5m and shoot it from close range, when they could just as easily have caught the dog and sued the owners.

What a load of bull seamus, have you seen this happen many time to be able to make such a statement? :rolleyes: if your refering to them using a shotgun in the quote above which im sure you are the cartridges used on an animal the size of a dog would kill him running at 40-50 yards.

I dont know anyone who would excicute a dog the way your saying most farmers do

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

A farmer is not gonna get sued for shooting a dog thats worrying livestock tail wagging or not and in sheep farming country the guards will be well up on roaming dogs because the farmers will report any pets they shoot.

A pally relationship with the Guards doesn't negate the law. Whether he gets sued depends on whether the dog owner issues proceedings & the verdict of the Court.

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Its rarely a viscious dog that causes trouble with livestock its the ones who think its great crack chasing sheep and run them into sheep wire fences, walls or worse a road! Ever come accross a sheep caught in a wire fence?

In that case there should be no necessity to shoot it if it can be apprehended. By the way I used to have to carry a Leatherman specifically to cut the wire & release lambs with their heads stuck in stock wire.

The point that I think Seamus is making is not that all farmers will shoot dogs but that the majority assume that they have a blanket right to shoot a dog. I wonder how many farmers are aware of the actual wording of the law ?.

kildare.17hmr

Your missing the point discodog, it does not have to be a viscious dog to do damage all the time! I shot a dog that happend to be a pet that was let out to walk its self every evening by it loving owner. The dog ran a few sheep into a fence the first night and was caught and brought home, next night ran off 3rd night i got a knock on the door from farmer and shot him in the act. That dog was havin a great time and prob would have licked me if i got him but thats not the point. That owner had to pay compo.

Do yoi think i was wrong to do it?

Aru

I call bull**** on the suing due to a clear law.

Bar an incidence where a dog is shot in front of its owner how can the owner prove that the dog was safe to approach at the time?they weren't there.And if they were what the hell were they thinking letting their dog loose at lambing time?I highly doubt there are many incidences of dogs being shot in front of their owners somehow.

As most owners are not there when the dog is loose in fields with sheep how are they going to prove the farmer in the wrong?any dog can chase sheep. Doesn't make them a bad dog.
Why should a farmer risk getting biten approaching a hyped up dog whos already damaging his stock.Wagging its tail or not a dog chasing sheep do not get second chances.

Responsible owners do not let their dogs roam.If its a one off then its bad luck.But one offs are not as common as people like to make out.
Besides the sheep are someones livelihood.Protecting them is more important then someones pet.

I do know people who will "execute" dogs.
Ive waited out before with my uncle for a pack of dogs to return for a repeat spree.It took a bit more than a week of long nights and waiting.Plus constant going down and checking on the ewes in the bottom field during the daytime.

Theres no calling the dog involved its just waiting for a close enough safe shot.Ideally as they some through the fence and before they get a chance to do more damage.It took a few days because dogs are not put off by their companions getting shot..they bolt away...but they come back...eventually 4 dead dogs later the problem stopped.They probably were lovely pets...a german shepard,some sort of collie and two little terriers. They all looked well fed and had collars but no tags on them....but that didn't help my uncle deal with the problem did it?

Gardas were alerted each time.Suspected owners denied owning the dogs.My uncle lost a few hundred euro.
Now he just makes sure he has a gun with him when hes checking his sheep.
Why wait til the dog does damage?He doesn't let people walk dogs on his land.So any dog in the field is up to no good as far as hes concerned.

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Your missing the point discodog, it does not have to be a viscious dog to do damage all the time! I shot a dog that happend to be a pet that was let out to walk its self every evening by it loving owner. The dog ran a few sheep into a fence the first night and was caught and brought home, next night ran off 3rd night i got a knock on the door from farmer and shot him in the act. That dog was havin a great time and prob would have licked me if i got him but thats not the point. That owner had to pay compo

The law really is very clear. I repeat that you have to be able to fulfil the following conditions for the shooting to be lawful.

that there were no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying;

there were no practicable means of seizing the dog or ascertaining to whom it belonged;

In your case the owner was known & it would appear that the dog could of been restrained. If so then you committed an offence or at least you could have to prove that you had reasonable grounds to shoot.

As a shooter you should be aware of the exact wording of the law before you agree to shoot a dog. One day you might shoot a dog whose owner decides to talk to a solicitor.

By the way according to the CoD Act the only person allowed to shoot the dog is "the person in charge of the livestock" so that might exclude getting someone in to do the shooting.

Discodog

Aru wrote: »

Why wait til the dog does damage?He doesn't let people walk dogs on his land.So any dog in the field is up to no good as far as hes concerned.

Because one day he may come across an owner that knows the law or who consults a solicitor. He could then end up having to justify his actions in Court & give evidence.

Are you really supporting the idea of doing what you like & ignoring the law because no one is watching ?

kildare.17hmr

The dog was taken back and the owner had 2 knocks on the door but still let the dog out again. The only way to prevent it was shooting the dog. The guards were notified while we were standing in my hall getting the gun ready and were on the scene minutes after the dog was shot and escorted us to the owners who were told they would be getting a bill, obviously they were complaining but the guards said they should just pay up and forget it. They did

Aru

Reasonable and practical means.....thats a bit of a grey area surely?

What exactly does it mean?
That the farmer should approach a stange dog?That he should fire off a warning Shot?
That he should yell at it to stop before shooting?

Farmers generally dont carry dog leads around with them....to what extent do you honestly expect a farmer to go to before he shoots the strange dog..

Lets say for the sake of it 4 dogs my uncle came across? Big male german Shepard,two little terriers and a colliex.How was he expected to deal with that pack of dogs within reasonable and practical means as they were flying around the field after his sheep with lambs at foot?If he had meet them on the first evening they attacked?

Edited to add when we shot the first one the others were only put off their wonderful game of chasing the sheep by a few very loud missed shots.....the people who were coming towards them and trying to distract them way from the sheep were nowhere near as exciting as the sheep running.

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

The dog was taken back and the owner had 2 knocks on the door but still let the dog out again. The only way to prevent it was shooting the dog. The guards were notified while we were standing in my hall getting the gun ready and were on the scene minutes after the dog was shot and escorted us to the owners who were told they would be getting a bill, obviously they were complaining but the guards said they should just pay up and forget it. They did

It sounds like the dog could of been impounded, contained, tied up etc.
It doesn't surprise me if the Guards are unaware of the wording of the act.

Aru wrote: »

Reasonable and practical means.....thats a bit of a grey area surely?

What exactly does it mean?
That the farmer should approach a stange dog?That he should fire off a warning Shot?
That he should yell at it to stop before shooting?

Farmers generally dont carry dog leads around with them....to what extent do you honestly expect a farmer to go to before he shoots the strange dog..

It is open to interpretation so it is up to the person doing the shooting to justify their actions. Most farmers that I know are never far away from a bit of rope or twine. As long as he is confident that he could stand up in Court & justify his actions under cross examination then he is fine.

Even though a collar tag is mandatory one could argue that one should check for a microchip before assuming that a dog is a stray - after all the collar may of broken. How do you check for a chip before shooting the dog ? "or ascertaining to whom it belonged; " as required by the act.
The Act refers to defences against being charged with shooting a dog. The words are "if the defendant proves that..." So the onus is on the shooter to prove that his actions were justified & not the other way round.

dbrock

i dont think any farmers go out looking for dogs to shoot, if people had there dogs under control, these situations wouldn arise,

kildare.17hmr

dbrock wrote: »

i dont think any farmers go out looking for dogs to shoot, if people had there dogs under control, these situations wouldn arise,

Simple as that really

sincere113

I think the 2 differing opinions here are;-

1) Some don't want the dog to be shot and will make the case that it shouldn't be shot even whilst the dog is causing hundreds if not thousands of euro of damage. They would risk injury to themselves and others whilst they contain the dog and bring it somewhere to be scanned for a chip.

2) Those that would shoot a dog whilst it is causing damage and not risk injury to themselves or others in containing the dog.

If a dog is causing damage or worrying stock, no judge in the land would expect you to approach and contain the animal.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

By the way according to the CoD Act the only person allowed to shoot the dog is "the person in charge of the livestock" so that might exclude getting someone in to do the shooting.

The law is never very clear Discodog any solicitor will tell you that.
Your above statement can be argued with the Dogs(protection of Livestock) Act1969

Section 4 Defence in action for damages for shooting a dog

(c) that the defendant was—


(i) the occupier of the land, a member of his family or a person employed by him, or


(ii) the owner of the livestock, a member of his family or a person employed by him, and


(d) that the defendant notified the shooting within forty-eight hours to a member of the Garda Síochána at the nearest Garda Síochána station.

Aru

A bit of rope or twine....to catch 4 dogs...ya that was going to happen.

Dogs are required by law to have a collar with owners details on it as well.Nothing in the law about checking for microchips.Its advised but it's not law.

However--Liability of owner for damage by dog.

21.—(1) The owner of a dog shall be liable in damages for damage caused in an attack on any person by the dog and for injury done by it to any livestock; and it shall not be necessary for the person seeking such damages to show a previous mischievous propensity in the dog, or the owner's knowledge of such previous propensity, or to show that such injury or damage was attributable to neglect on the part of the owner.

(2) Where livestock are injured by a dog on land on to which they had strayed, and either the dog belonged to the occupier of the land or its presence on the land was authorised by the occupier, a person shall not be liable under this section in respect of injury done to the livestock, unless the person caused the dog to attack the livestock.

Also interestingly enough what a stray actually is..

"Stray dogs are dogs that are in a public place and are not accompanied by the owner or a responsible person. Dogs that are not under proper control are also considered stray dogs."

Dog not kept under control=On-the-spot fine of €30 payable to your local authority =Failure to pay on-the-spot fines can lead to prosecution in District Court with a maximum fine of €1904.61 and/or 3 months imprisonment

More than one issue going on when a loose dog is in a field.

micropig

By law all dogs must be kept under effective control – owners may be held liable for any injury or damage caused if their dog attacks a person or livestock.

Dog Control

John_Rambo

Years ago I lived in the inner city of Dublin and the Gardai shot a (dubious natured) neighbours dog in the head. They were arresting him or searching the house and the dog was a good guard dog.

RXMPS

sincere113 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that you could sue me for for shooting your dog on my land after it causing damage to my stock?

Secondly do you think a guard would arrest me for animal cruelty after shooting your dog after it causing damage to my stock?

Secondly this notion that farmers are looking to shoot dogs for the craic or for revenge is very unfair.

Do yourself a favour and read back over my posts and you will cop on that I said that most dogs are someones pet (most often kids) and so I don't want to shoot the dog but if I have to then I would.

I have shot 2 dogs in my time. Each time the dog had come on to my land one time it had a ewe cornered the second time I caught a dog chasing 2 week old lambs. 2 had already been killed while he had moved on to the third. The dogs tail was wagging and thought it great fun. Unfortunately I shot him to protect my stock. I reported the events to the guards and made a statement. I'm legally obliged to do so. The guard told me that it would be a fool of an owner to own up to owning the dog. But guess what, the owner went storming into the guards that evening saying that I had needlessly shot their dog and that I had no right to do so. The guard told them I had every right and they advised them to come to me and apologise and pay compensation. Guess what the owner came to me and F'd me out of it - no apology no nothing I never received a cent compensation from them. I have no sympathy for owners of dogs like that ones I shot.

I have seen dogs at the same thing chasing lambs and sheep. Some farmers I know saw it happen but couldn't do anything at the time. But you could probably bet your last euro that the owner of the dog didn't give a feck about not knowing where the dog was and you could catch the same dog at it again in no time.

I would also like to state that the majority of farmers that know who owns any dog causing trouble will do all they can before raising a gun to a dog.

I have an Alaskan Malamute named Fado.

He is a big boy about 40kg and like a small child, like all Huskies he can not be trusted off the lead, because his breed are runners and have a strong prey drive.

His breed was designed to pull light to moderate weight over long distances and was let free by his masters at certain times of the year to fend for themselves.

Running and chasing prey is hard wired into them Huskies and as such they can not be trusted off the lead.

My brother and his girlfriend took him for a walk around the Kerry countryside last summer and whatever way he twisted and turned he managed to get off the lead and ran, he ran towards a farmers field and chased his sheep around and tried to catch them

He didn't know he was doing wrong, he is an animal after all, that's all he know's.

Luckily the farmer was a nice man and just shot his shotgun into the air and chased Fado away, he could have killed him if wanted, but how could you kill such a big beautiful animal that was just having fun and didn't know he was doing wrong.

Fado got scared and ran back to my brother, he has never got off the lead since.

The dogs tail was wagging and thought it great fun. Unfortunately I shot him to protect my stock.

Could you of not tried to scare him, shoot the gun in the air, chase him off?

micropig

RXMPS wrote: »

I have an Alaskan Malamute named Fado.

He is a big boy about 40kg and like a small child, like all Huskies he can not be trusted off the lead, because his breed are runners and have a strong prey drive.

His breed was designed to pull light to moderate weight over long distances and was let free by his masters at certain times of the year to fend for themselves.

Running and chasing prey is hard wired into them Huskies and as such they can not be trusted off the lead.

My brother and his girlfriend took him for a walk around the Kerry countryside last summer and whatever way he twisted and turned he managed to get off the lead and ran, he ran towards a farmers field and chased his sheep around and tried to catch them

He didn't know he was doing wrong, he is an animal after all, that's all he know's.

Luckily the farmer was a nice man and just shot his shotgun into the air and chased Fado away, he could have killed him if wanted, but how could you kill such a big beautiful animal that was just having fun and didn't know he was doing wrong.

Fado got scared and ran back to my brother, he has never got off the lead since.




Could you of not tried to scare him, shoot the gun in the air, chase him off?

Not exactly fair on an animal who is bread to run and chase prey, to be on a lead the whole time, goes against their natural instincts.

The farmer is entitled to kill him if he is worrying sheep

Keeping this big beautiful animal on a leash the whole time is not fair to the dog.

homerhop

RXMPS wrote: »

was just having fun and didn't know he was doing wrong.

At this time of year that bit of fun can cause serious damage to ewes that are in lamb. Causing many to abort and never recover from the stress

Discodog

sincere113 wrote: »

I think the 2 differing opinions here are;-

1) Some don't want the dog to be shot and will make the case that it shouldn't be shot even whilst the dog is causing hundreds if not thousands of euro of damage. They would risk injury to themselves and others whilst they contain the dog and bring it somewhere to be scanned for a chip.

2) Those that would shoot a dog whilst it is causing damage and not risk injury to themselves or others in containing the dog.

If a dog is causing damage or worrying stock, no judge in the land would expect you to approach and contain the animal.

I disagree. Most people would accept that there are occasions when a dog has to be shot but according to the law this should be the exception. That is why the law requires that a shooter be able to justify his actions. If the law was intended to allow a dog a be shot easily then it would be the other way round.

I agree that a dog owner might have an uphill battle in a typical Irish Court after all we do have just about the worse animal welfare law in Europe. But everyone is required to abide by the law. Just because someone breaks the law by allowing their dog to stray it doesn't give someone else the right to break the law & shoot it.

As this is Ireland I doubt if such a case has ever been to Court but there is always a first time. What this thread has shown is it is not as clear cut as many might believe.

sincere113

RXMPS wrote: »

Could you of not tried to scare him, shoot the gun in the air, chase him off?

I shouted at him but didn't fire in the air as I could end up with a case of reckless discharge brought against me....:rollseyes:

Nice dog BTW.

Aru

RXMPS Your dog is absolutely gorgeous....but if it had been my uncle's land chasing his sheep he was on he would have shot him.I have no doubts about that.

He could not have known if that dog would come back again once the fear of the loud noise was overcome by wanting to play the fun chase the sheep game.
He isn't inclined to run that risk.His sheep are his livelihood.
No owners around and a big dog like that in with his animals....christ he would have had heart failure...

Plus the fact your lovely boy looks so much like a wolf unfortunately would not have went in his favour! My uncle was extremely edgy of the big GSD!not a hope would he have called out to a wolfy looking creature......which is an awful shame...and in the GSD's defense he was chasing sheep consistently but one of the the little terrier were actually the main instigators of the chase that i seen!

P.s im glad that your story has a happy ending!

But I think you were extremely lucky....and that the time of year may have helped.If it was late summer those sheep would have already lambed down and would have been for fattening or getting ready to rebreed...so less loss in terms of abortion and lamb loss.Just extreme stress and injury from the dog as a death cause.

Hellrazer

falabo wrote: »

WOW WOW WOW your brain must be the size of a chickpea !!! WOW

falabo wrote: »

yes that one is a REAL farmer !!! go paddy farmer you're such a hero !!! hahahahahaha the WORLD is laughing at people like you ! people like you are the root cause of war over petrol religion, globalisation etc ... !!!

falabo wrote: »

some people might sue you, others might make sure you'll never come near them again .... one day you'll shoot the wrong person's pet and you will never forget it !

Falabo--Thats 3 posts I could ban you for.Now consider this a warning and go off and read the rules of the forum.

By all means discuss the issue but dont post crap like the above again or you can take a break from the forum.

Discodog

sincere113 wrote: »

I could end up with a case of reckless discharge brought against me....:rollseyes:

Reckless discharge - that could cover a lot of topics

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

Reckless discharge - that could cover a lot of topics

Mind in the gutter :D

fits

I think a farmer would cut a dog an awful lot more slack in the summer months when ewes arent in-lamb or there are no young lambs about.

A lot of people here seem to care only for the welfare of the dog, what about the welfare of the sheep? As someone mentioned, they will abort their lamb under such stress.

I know a hell of a lot of dog owners and sheep farmers. Every sheep farmer I know has had at least one incident where they lost a few sheep, killed by roaming dogs. I only know one dog owner who has had a dog shot, because he didnt have the dog enclosed and the dog got a taste for chasing sheep.

Most of the time when it happens, it is neither accidental, nor a once-off. Many many more dog owners need to take responsibility as to the whereabouts of their dogs.

200yrolecrank

fits wrote: »

I think a farmer would cut a dog an awful lot more slack in the summer months when ewes arent in-lamb or there are no young lambs about.

A lot of people here seem to care only for the welfare of the dog, what about the welfare of the sheep? As someone mentioned, they will abort their lamb under such stress.

I know a hell of a lot of dog owners and sheep farmers. Every sheep farmer I know has had at least one incident where they lost a few sheep, killed by roaming dogs. I only know one dog owner who has had a dog shot, because he didnt have the dog enclosed and the dog got a taste for chasing sheep.

Most of the time when it happens, it is neither accidental, nor a once-off. Many many more dog owners need to take responsibility as to the whereabouts of their dogs.

Yes dogs should be contained in a yard,garden unless out walking with the owner.
A lot of people care more about the dogs as a dog is a part of the family for many and a lamb is part of dinner.
Last time I checked were not in Vietnam and we don't eat dog hence the lack of care for the sheep.
Although on an off point you never see many stray dogs in Vietnam.

RXMPS

micropig wrote: »

Not exactly fair on an animal who is bread to run and chase prey, to be on a lead the whole time, goes against their natural instincts.

The farmer is entitled to kill him if he is worrying sheep

Keeping this big beautiful animal on a leash the whole time is not fair to the dog.

It's a shame alright that he has to be on the lead when out for a walk.

His recall is fine in an empty soccer pitch and the like, but out on walks where there is other animals around, he can't be trusted as he just wants to explore and he knows he is much faster than me and I have no way of catching him.

I leave him off the lead on the local beach with his golden retriever sister Mischa and in the dog park to play with other dogs, as I know those areas very well, but all other areas he is on the lead for his own protection.

I think a farmer should do all he can to not kill the dog, try to scare it off, check if owners will come etc, I know it's not an easy thing to do, but my dog could easily have been killed through no fault of his own.

It was a freak accident that he got off the lead and there was sheep around, thank god he used his head.