Never mind the dole scroungers and the bankers

Red21

I think the issue here is more to do with double jobbing on a grand scale than anything else, i've no problem with farming grants for full time farmers but whats been happening here more and more is that farms are being passed on to people who already have good jobs. This is fine as a land owner is entitled to pass the land on to whoever he/she likes but I think it's unfair that some guy earns 40/50 grand at his real job and then claims 20 grand SPF (single farm payment) for keeping a few sucklers on a good sized farm. This same farm may have supported a family back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
Fair enough if a guy is in a low paid job and using the farm to supplement his income but there should be some cut off point in an attempt to get land owners farming, this would greatly free up much needed jobs.
As long as people like the op keep making their anti-farming rant these double jobbers know their safe because the real issue gets glossed over in a country v urban divide.

cloptrop

bbam wrote: »

I see...
Your one of those !!

It's all becoming very clear now...

I have no problem with growing and eating animals , they are tasty,

ejmaztec

I blame all of those people who didn't buy at least 4 houses. It's thanks to their selfishness that the country is riddled with ghost estates.












:pac:

Nothingbetter2d

cloptrop wrote: »

These people are basically sitting on millions worth of land and are getting the very same as dole , just called a different name.
Some of them get paid to not grow anything .

actually they could grow rapeseed and use it to make fuel for their tractors.

Nothingbetter2d

ejmaztec wrote: »

I blame all of those people who didn't buy at least 4 houses. It's thanks to their selfishness that the country is riddled with ghost estates.

:pac:

if you have any spare empty houses left i'll buy one off ya for a tenner

bbam

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

actually they could grow rapeseed and use it to make fuel for their tractors.

Another idiotic post...
The % of farmland in Ireland suitable for growing such crops is limited... Also energy crops displace food crops and drive the price of food upwards..

cloptrop

bbam wrote: »

Another idiotic post...
The % of farmland in Ireland suitable for growing such crops is limited... Also energy crops displace food crops and drive the price of food upwards..

Drive the price of Irish food upwards, the market is being fiddled with , what with the dont grow anything and Ill give you 20000 grant . The market should be free , the best farmers will prevail and the bad ones will go under ,
Why is farming not treated like any other business.

eth0

cloptrop wrote: »

Drive the price of Irish food upwards, the market is being fiddled with , what with the dont grow anything and Ill give you 20000 grant . The market should be free , the best farmers will prevail and the bad ones will go under ,
Why is farming not treated like any other business.

'Any other business' is a myth these days. Any business will be able to get some support from the government if they are struggling. Even if they are not struggling there are all sorts of grants, schemes and tax concessions available for all sorts of business.

cloptrop

So say for example if garages were going under and all got together and said they would have to raise the price of petrol to stop them going out of business. Would you support the government stepping in to keep them afloat.
Say they started paying certain garages to stay closed so as to let another garage owner make a living.
Say this garage owner getting paid to close got another job and rented his garage to a newsagent .

SoulTrader

cloptrop wrote: »

Yea you see I got a bit pissed off with the fact that most of the single mother , dole scrounger etc bashing is done by the farmers , so I said enough is enough . Its just as much the farmers fault as the dole cheats single mothers etc they are all costing the government around the same I reckon .

Hardly substantial research on your part is it?

cloptrop

SoulTrader wrote: »

Hardly substantial research on your part is it?

Im hardly a researcher.

SoulTrader

cloptrop wrote: »

Drive the price of Irish food upwards, the market is being fiddled with , what with the dont grow anything and Ill give you 20000 grant . The market should be free , the best farmers will prevail and the bad ones will go under ,
Why is farming not treated like any other business.

The reason, Cloptrop, if you had bothered to research your ill-informed rant is Engel's Law.

From Wikipedia

Engel's law is an observation in economics stating that as income rises, the proportion of income spent on food falls, even if actual expenditure on food rises. In other words, the income elasticity of demand of food is between 0 and 1.

Allow me to illustrate. You are a hardworking member of society. You and a farmer live alone in one country. You earn $10,000 per year. It costs $1,000 to feed you each year. So, in this example, the farmer earns $1,000 per year from you, for al the food you buy from him.

Now, let's say you get a nice pay rise. You're now earning $100,000 per year. Are you going to spend $10,000 per year on food? No, of course you won't. You'll spend $1,000 because that's all it takes to feed you. However, the farmer is a lot poorer than you in relative terms. Your increased salary means there is more money in the economy, which causes what? I'll tell you - inflation. So, now the farmer has the lowest income in the country, you're surviving handsomely but unfortunately, you're keeping your cash in your pocket and refusing to buy any more food than you need. The poor farmer of course will struggle.

It is not a case of farmers being incompetent businessmen. Theirs is a trade doomed to low income, and subsidies are a necessary component of keeping them in business. Unless you want to starve of course.

cloptrop

SoulTrader wrote: »

The reason, Cloptrop, if you had bothered to research your ill-informed rant is Engel's Law.

From Wikipedia



Allow me to illustrate. You are a hardworking member of society. You and a farmer live alone in one country. You earn $10,000 per year. It costs $1,000 to feed you each year. So, in this example, the farmer earns $1,000 per year from you, for al the food you buy from him.

Now, let's say you get a nice pay rise. You're now earning $100,000 per year. Are you going to spend $10,000 per year on food? No, of course you won't. You'll spend $1,000 because that's all it takes to feed you. However, the farmer is a lot poorer than you in relative terms. Your increased salary means there is more money in the economy, which causes what? I'll tell you - inflation. So, now the farmer has the lowest income in the country, you're surviving handsomely but unfortunately, you're keeping your cash in your pocket and refusing to buy any more food than you need. The poor farmer of course will struggle.

It is not a case of farmers being incompetent businessmen. Theirs is a trade doomed to low income, and subsidies are a necessary component of keeping them in business. Unless you want to starve of course.

So the farmers cant raise their prices, they are below cost selling ? Can they not say to the supermarkets hey we are not selling for lower than x amount?

micropig

cloptrop wrote: »

So the farmers cant raise their prices, they are below cost selling ? Can they not say to the supermarkets hey we are not selling for lower than x amount?

Supermarkets have a lot of 'Buying power'

SoulTrader

cloptrop wrote: »

So the farmers cant raise their prices, they are below cost selling ? Can they not say to the supermarkets hey we are not selling for lower than x amount?

It's just not inflation, and it's not as simple as that. I was simplifying it for the sake of illustrating my example.

k.p.h

cloptrop wrote: »

So the farmers cant raise their prices, they are below cost selling ? Can they not say to the supermarkets hey we are not selling for lower than x amount?

Yeah **** the free market, the should make a monopoly out of it. That way they dictate the prices of products and we wont have to subsidies them. It's just food anyway, not important..

cloptrop

micropig wrote: »

Supermarkets have a lot of 'Buying power'

And they will continue to do so if they are allowed to name a price in an industry where the tax payer foots the bill for any short comings .

SoulTrader wrote: »

It's just not inflation, and it's not as simple as that. I was simplifying it for the sake of illustrating my example.

No you were using a big word and some wikipedia example hoping I wouldnt understand , I did study economics as part of my college time , not full blown economics just as part of a business thing . The supermarkets are getting away with murder but so too are the farmers , I say stop bailing out the farmers and let the chips fall where they land.

micropig

k.p.h wrote: »

Yeah **** the free market, the should make a monopoly out of it. That way they dictate the prices of products and we wont have to subsidies them. It's just food anyway, not important..

It's not a free market as it stands at the moment, Supermarkets dictate the price to farmers, and can easy source from else where..

micropig

We could get a fairer price, for better quality, local produce, if we all bought from local shops and independent retailers, farm shops etc

cloptrop

micropig wrote: »

We could get a fairer price, for better quality, local produce, if we all bought from local shops and independent retailers, farm shops etc

Or we could stop subsidizing them and let them compete with other farmers , if it then gets to the point where we import most of our food so be it.
If I worked in a box factory and people started realizing they could buy cheaper boxes from algeria should I be entitled to a grant to keep my box factory going just because its my history?

SoulTrader

cloptrop wrote: »

And they will continue to do so if they are allowed to name a price in an industry where the tax payer foots the bill for any short comings .



No you were using a big word and some wikipedia example hoping I wouldnt understand , I did study economics as part of my college time , not full blown economics just as part of a business thing . The supermarkets are getting away with murder but so too are the farmers , I say stop bailing out the farmers and let the chips fall where they land.

I'm sure you wouldn't complain if farmers raised their prices to make themselves profitable either...

micropig

cloptrop wrote: »

Or we could stop subsidizing them and let them compete with other farmers , if it then gets to the point where we import most of our food so be it.
If I worked in a box factory and people started realizing they could buy cheaper boxes from algeria should I be entitled to a grant to keep my box factory going just because its my history?

Supermarkets make the most profit in the chain. Cut them out. Farmers gets more, customer buys for less, everyone is happy, then look at cutting the subsidies



I think the point someone made earlier about people with good jobs &farms...maybe means test subsidies?

cloptrop

SoulTrader wrote: »

I'm sure you wouldn't complain if farmers raised their prices to make themselves profitable either...

No I wouldnt complain Id just buy cheaper meat from another country that doesnt need to be subsised

micropig wrote: »

Supermarkets make the most profit in the chain. Cut them out. Farmers gets more, customer buys for less, everyone is happy, then look at cutting the subsidies



I think the point someone made earlier about people with good jobs &farms...maybe means test subsidies?

Excellent point maybe something needs to be done to manage these money pit farms better but as long as the government foots the bill everyone will sit back and just complain about Tesco

micropig

cloptrop wrote: »

No I wouldnt complain Id just buy cheaper meat from another country that doesnt need to be subsised

Other countries don't have the same high standards when producing food (Personally I think we go over the top with the rules & regulations a bit)

cloptrop wrote: »

Excellent point maybe something needs to be done to manage these money pit farms better but as long as the government foots the bill everyone will sit back and just complain about Tesco

Get out & shop in your local shop:D

cloptrop

Can any farmers explain why Irish produce is so expensive as opposed to say Dutch .
I believe dutch chickens are alot cheaper.

micropig

cloptrop wrote: »

Can any farmers explain why Irish produce is so expensive as opposed to say Dutch .
I believe dutch chickens are alot cheaper.

An investigation of the level of structural change in the agrifood sector of Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands-Teagasc

The answer might be in that link, I didn't read it all now mind you:D

eth0

cloptrop wrote: »

Or we could stop subsidizing them and let them compete with other farmers , if it then gets to the point where we import most of our food so be it.
If I worked in a box factory and people started realizing they could buy cheaper boxes from algeria should I be entitled to a grant to keep my box factory going just because its my history?

It wouldn't be a terrible idea. Money sent to Algeria for boxes is unlikely to come back here any time soon. Just like when you buy things made in China you make China richer and possibly some American outsourcing design house richer but it's doing f*ck all good for the local economy

Alessandra

Red21 wrote: »

I think the issue here is more to do with double jobbing on a grand scale than anything else, i've no problem with farming grants for full time farmers but whats been happening here more and more is that farms are being passed on to people who already have good jobs. This is fine as a land owner is entitled to pass the land on to whoever he/she likes but I think it's unfair that some guy earns 40/50 grand at his real job and then claims 20 grand SPF (single farm payment) for keeping a few sucklers on a good sized farm. This same farm may have supported a family back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
Fair enough if a guy is in a low paid job and using the farm to supplement his income but there should be some cut off point in an attempt to get land owners farming, this would greatly free up much needed jobs.
As long as people like the op keep making their anti-farming rant these double jobbers know their safe because the real issue gets glossed over in a country v urban divide.

The so-called ' double jobbers' you speak of conform to the exact same criteria as those who make farming their sole income source. You'd need a very large holding to make a decent farming income these days.

Why don't these double jobbers give up their farms I hear you cry? The simple fact that farm land is generally inherited, that's right passed on trough the generations. Now handing over land, getting rid of livestock and giving up a lifestyle your kin have know for generations might be to some an easy choice. For my father farming is all he knows. He's passionate about it and has put blood sweat and tears into keeping our land sustainable and in the family. Our ancestors dwellings still remain on the land. Besides Rural semi bogland is hardly going to able to be resold!!
His part-timejob affords him a social outlet as well as means to support
A family somewhat comfortably after an 80hr week.

Dont make inflammatory remarks on something you know nothing of!

cloptrop

Alessandra wrote: »

The so-called ' double jobbers' you speak of conform to the exact same criteria as those who make farming their sole income source. You'd need a very large holding to make a decent farming income these days.

Why don't these double jobbers give up their farms I hear you cry? The simple fact that farm land is generally inherited, that's right passed on trough the generations. Now handing over land, getting rid of livestock and giving up a lifestyle your kin have know for generations might be to some an easy choice. For my father farming is all he knows. He's passionate about it and has put blood sweat and tears into keeping our land sustainable and in the family. Our ancestors dwellings still remain on the land. Besides Rural semi bogland is hardly going to able to be resold!!
His part-timejob affords him a social outlet as well as means to support
A family somewhat comfortably after an 80hr week.

Dont make inflammatory remarks on something you know nothing of!

So you reckon the fella is barely scraping a living after an 80 hour week?
Tell the truth , no such thing or he wouldnt bother. Hes telling you hes doing it rough , I bet whoever inherits the farm will get a big surprise when they see what daddy was putting away all these years and pleading poverty.
Just because the land was in your family for years doesnt mean the government owes it to you to pay for it, its not sustainable,

Red21

Alessandra wrote: »

Why don't these double jobbers give up their farms I hear you cry?

Did you even read my post, I never said this. You're trying to make this into the usual farmers v non-farmers.
Yes, what i'm saying is off topic on this thread but i'm asking a simple question.
Why should doctors, teachers, factory workers etc who are already earning a very wage claim farming grants?