The state of Waterford City from a commercial point of view

Nas10

Hi guys, have been passing through town a few times in the last few weeks and I have noticed the city has become a massive eye sore to look at so if you can all list shops in and around the city that are vacant and looking run down.

I have quite a few to mention but I will let you all add your points of view. I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

batm!ke

http://www.waterfordpopup.com

Max Powers

Nas10 wrote: »

I have quite a few to mention but I will let you all add your points of view. I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

I think the need for landlords to reduce rates is well known for years now. I heard from a sibling of someone who was trying to open up a clothes shop in a small unit in city centre (i wont say which but it is very small), she was quoted 30,000 rent....how many tops to you have to sell to make that viable.

There are a good few shops vacant including the old eircom shop, down the quay etc....this is what happens when you have one of the highest unemployment rates in the country

WHATS BEEN DONE / CAN BE DONE
The city council in fairness have reduced parking fees to good levels €1p.h., the viking triangle, the pop-up is a good idea, and im sure some landlords have reduced their rates, why wouldnt they. The council are doing up a few buildings down the quay which would be great for any people who can sell crafts eg woodworks, ornaments etc
We need to support our city centre businesses as much as you can afford. I try to do as much shopping in city centre as I can, even if its a couple of small things, make the place more vibrant, keep business ticking over...

beazee

Why haven't Commercial Rates be mentioned yet?

Heard in the radio yesterday one particular hotel is paying 90K p.a. to City Council in rates. I imagine 3G shop is at least 20K p.a to the council (judging by how big it is and the location).

The small shop in John's St directly opposite abrakebabra, former fun drugs, currently accountants, I had interest in the past was rated 3K p.a.

How come Limerick City could slash commercial rates by 50% to keep the shops busy and operating while WCC comes with Pop Up idea to occupy vacated shop windows?

merlante

Nas10 wrote: »

Hi guys, have been passing through town a few times in the last few weeks and I have noticed the city has become a massive eye sore to look at so if you can all list shops in and around the city that are vacant and looking run down.

I have quite a few to mention but I will let you all add your points of view. I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

Maybe you haven't been in to town in about 10 years, but the town is looking *a lot* better than it did 2/3 years ago. Penney's, Costa, Bewley's Kiosk, Lily O'Brien's, and countless other places have opened in town; the viking triangle is transforming before our eyes, House of Waterford crystal instead of ESB building! Not saying everything is perfect but there a clear upward trend at the moment, and I find it a surprising to still hear this "eye sore" talk when parts of the city are starting to look very well indeed.

savic04

Waterford city centre is a depressing place these days.. anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

Even though the latest parking fee's etc are welcome, it is a bit late to save the city centre. The tall ships was great, but why need to wait 5 years for 2 days busy trading.

We need a better shopping centre, need better shops, more choice to attract shopers back in but the €€€ just inst there..The pub trade has almost disappeared and now 1 x 5min traingle of pubs and clubs is our scene.

Instead of expanding in the good years like Galway, the western region capital , Waterford seems to have got smaller and back to what many consider a town not a city.
Anytime I bring in vistors to Waterford, they are shocked at just how small the place is and how little facilites we have.. no 5* hotel for a start

old gregg

Nas10 wrote: »

Hi guys, have been passing through town a few times in the last few weeks and I have noticed the city has become a massive eye sore to look at so if you can all list shops in and around the city that are vacant and looking run down.

If you perceive that the city has become a massive eyesore then why don't you do the hard work here and compile your own list? I assume you have a reason for this exercise?

kensutz

batm!ke wrote: »

http://www.waterfordpopup.com

Hmm, that might be something that I need Must look into it.

Marchandire

When you talk about the city centre, you're talking about retail. Until unemployment is addressed in the city and surroundings, this sector of the local economy will continue to deteriorate. There simply aren't enough consumers to sustain local retailers.

Parking rates, commercial rents and pop-up schemes don't address the fundamental structural problem here: namely that Waterford has the highest unemployment rate in the country.

As local citizens, we should be urging our representatives to find or encourage real job creation in manufacturing and R&D - not short term construction projects like putting down new pavements, low-paid seasonal tourist jobs, or opening more cafes.

Seriously, what is up with all the bloody cafes around here?

Max Powers

savic04 wrote: »

Waterford city centre is a depressing place these days.. anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

Even though the latest parking fee's etc are welcome, it is a bit late to save the city centre. The tall ships was great, but why need to wait 5 years for 2 days busy trading.

We need a better shopping centre, need better shops, more choice to attract shopers back in but the €€€ just inst there..The pub trade has almost disappeared and now 1 x 5min traingle of pubs and clubs is our scene.

Instead of expanding in the good years like Galway, the western region capital , Waterford seems to have got smaller and back to what many consider a town not a city.
Anytime I bring in vistors to Waterford, they are shocked at just how small the place is and how little facilites we have.. no 5* hotel for a start

It all boils down to the sucessive govts not giving a hoot about Waterford while they put FDI, government agencies and the rest into particularly likes of Galway, Cork and Dublin. Fair play to the west BTW. Look at the high-tech companies IDA FDI brought to Galway, there is not 1 high-tech factory in Waterford. We have basically 1 pharma factory in Waterford City. Im not going to bother looking up what Galway, Cork etc have. All this adds up to us suffering more when the recession hit, lower spending power, lower incomes, less access to third level education....all the stats prove this, not making it up. For the last 5+ years hoteliers are moving away from 5*, 99% of people want cheaper rooms. If you want 5*, Waterford Castle is 5 minutes away, Ardmore Cliff House, 40mins

Even with all that combined, Waterford City has a lot to offer, a city rich in history, the west of Ireland would love to have. Easy access to nature like rivers, mountains and beaches. we mightnt have a few of the more expensive shops Galway has (see previous paragraph). We have some fantastic restaurants in the city and county and other great amenities. I would love to see a few other shops open up (brown thomas etc) but they aint gonna in this environment. The Council did drag their feet when it came to another shopping centre and we also had a green party galwayman determined to prevent any economic activity happen in Waterford.

In short, there is a lot to be positive about here in Waterford city, not just the better weather compared to the rain-soaked west. I suggest next time you have someone down, look a lil deeper, its not all about shops, check out the likes o l'atmosphere restaurant, muesums, whats on in theatre royal, garter lane, christchurch, forum.

Psychedelic

Nas10 wrote: »

Hi guys, have been passing through town a few times in the last few weeks and I have noticed the city has become a massive eye sore to look at so if you can all list shops in and around the city that are vacant and looking run down.

I have quite a few to mention but I will let you all add your points of view. I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

What do you expect, we are in a major recession, empty shops can be seen in any town or city you visit. I don't think the city is a 'massive eyesore' because these shops are empty. Sure it would look better if all the shops were full, but it's not that bad in fairness.

beazee wrote: »

How come Limerick City could slash commercial rates by 50% to keep the shops busy and operating while WCC comes with Pop Up idea to occupy vacated shop windows?

Limerick City Council reduced commercial rates by only 1.5%.

My understanding of the City Manager's report in the City Council's 2012 budget was that reducing rates would result in a huge loss of revenue for the Council and would only knock off an unsubstantial amount off the rates bill for businesses, so the Council are instead spending huge amounts of money and resources on things that will help businesses, such as the festivals, Viking Triangle, Christmas promotions, reducing parking prices, works on the Quay etc.

savic04

Max Powers wrote: »

It all boils down to the sucessive govts not giving a hoot about Waterford while they put FDI, government agencies and the rest into particularly likes of Galway, Cork and Dublin. Fair play to the west BTW. Look at the high-tech companies IDA FDI brought to Galway, there is not 1 high-tech factory in Waterford. We have basically 1 pharma factory in Waterford City. Im not going to bother looking up what Galway, Cork etc have. All this adds up to us suffering more when the recession hit, lower spending power, lower incomes, less access to third level education....all the stats prove this, not making it up. For the last 5+ years hoteliers are moving away from 5*, 99% of people want cheaper rooms. If you want 5*, Waterford Castle is 5 minutes away, Ardmore Cliff House, 40mins

Even with all that combined, Waterford City has a lot to offer, a city rich in history, the west of Ireland would love to have. Easy access to nature like rivers, mountains and beaches. we mightnt have a few of the more expensive shops Galway has (see previous paragraph). We have some fantastic restaurants in the city and county and other great amenities. I would love to see a few other shops open up (brown thomas etc) but they aint gonna in this environment. The Council did drag their feet when it came to another shopping centre and we also had a green party galwayman determined to prevent any economic activity happen in Waterford.

In short, there is a lot to be positive about here in Waterford city, not just the better weather compared to the rain-soaked west. I suggest next time you have someone down, look a lil deeper, its not all about shops, check out the likes o l'atmosphere restaurant, muesums, whats on in theatre royal, garter lane, christchurch, forum.

a) Waterford Castle is NOT a 5* hotel
b) '''atmosphere restaurant, muesums, whats on in theatre royal, garter lane, christchurch, forum'' 99% of other 'towns' has same to offer

didnt say it was all about shops, i know for a fact 2 major outlets shelved their Waterford plans because of poor footfall and classes Waterford as a large town and not a city in which to invest.

Waterford certainly has a lot to offer and my line os business is promoting this with ZERO help from any local board, council or what not... On the outside im very positive about Waterford but dont be another do gooder asaying 'isnt it great here' when a blind man can see its falling around our very eyes.

To help a problem you got to admit to having a problem and stop blaming everyone else but ourselves

wellboytoo

Nas10 wrote: »

I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

Legal wrangle going on there a long time now, hence it is not let

merlante

savic04 wrote: »

Waterford city centre is a depressing place these days.. anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

Even though the latest parking fee's etc are welcome, it is a bit late to save the city centre. The tall ships was great, but why need to wait 5 years for 2 days busy trading.

We need a better shopping centre, need better shops, more choice to attract shopers back in but the €€€ just inst there..The pub trade has almost disappeared and now 1 x 5min traingle of pubs and clubs is our scene.

Instead of expanding in the good years like Galway, the western region capital , Waterford seems to have got smaller and back to what many consider a town not a city.
Anytime I bring in vistors to Waterford, they are shocked at just how small the place is and how little facilites we have.. no 5* hotel for a start

This is such a load of crap. Visually, the city has been improving steadily since about 1990. From the pedestrianisation of 'red square' to today's JR square, from the bombed out surface carpark to City Square, from the cow sheds to the plaza, from the overgrown disgrace of a park to the multi-million euro revamped park, to the rejuvenation of Scotch and Adelphi quays, from the rotting buildings of the O'Connell st. area to the inhabited apartment buildings (i.e. life! And no, I don't want to argue about how nice these apartments are, only that they are better than abandoned abattoirs, etc.), to the improvements of O'Connell st., Gladstone st., Hanover st, etc., and recently, with the revamp of ESB as the House of Waterford Crystal, the revamp of viking triangle (esp. Bishop's palace), the revamp of the Mall and Quay which is happening right now, to Bank Lane and Mall Lane, which are rejuvenated or being rejuvenated, the flood defenses and other aesthetic improvements along John's river and the quay. The city council have been involved in major works continuously for years now, and the city is looking a lot better. The Mall is pretty much back to its 18th century glory.

Sure shops have closed, but others have opened, and there is a serious boom in cafe culture happening, following on the back of a boom in restaurant culture that happened 10 years earlier. 2007 was the lowest point for retail in Waterford, in my opinion. I actually have pictures of every vacant and derelict lot from a week in that year (maybe it's 2008) and it was really bad. The recession hadn't even hit. Since the start of the recession, I'm fairly confident that dereliction and vacancy has notably decreased. I may even go to the bother of proving it.

In my opinion, Waterford has suffered from out of town development. The overall retail situation in Waterford is *vastly* more developed and comprehensive than it was in 2000. Look at the developments at Ardkeen, Brasscock and Butlerstown to name but three examples. The city centre has probably plateaued in this time. I doubt it even declined. If you look at what was in the centre during the 90's, retail-wise, it was pretty poor. We still had a lot of paint shops and hardware shops, etc. on the main streets, where you would expect clothing, footwear and other items that provide a high yield per square foot of store space. (We still have a hole in Michael st. that displays gravestones and a butcher that sells no meat but there was a lot more of this sort of thing.) The city would certainly have declined relative to Galway, but probably didn't relative to Limerick that suffered far more out of town shopping.

The pub trade has nothing to do with anything. We have as many pubs as we ever had, just different ones, and the fact that trade is down is a country-wide phenomenon.

The quality of Waterford's big store retail and labels is, admittedly, a continuing source of weakness. I believe this has a lot to do with the fact that the Newgate centre did not get built. This is the real pity of the boom. A big new flashy centre would have led to the highest category stores (as opposed to the B and C grade stores we have in other locations) and would have provided room for expansion for years to come. Still, you can't have everything. I believe it is inevitable that Waterford will improve here, however, because it is by far the largest centre of population not to have, or be fully exploited fully by, many strong high st. retailers in Ireland. Waterford underdeveloped during the boom, and in the recession, I would expect Waterford to make ground on other centres, which are ahead. (Although this depends on at least *some* help from the IDA to buffer against further catastrophes.)

Anytime I or anyone I have spoken to have brought visitors to Waterford, they have always been very impressed with the city and what there is to do in the city and the surrounding area, and find the city quite attractive. Often people have a negative or neutral expectation and are pleasantly surprised. I try not to bias people's opinions one way or the other to find out what they genuinely think. I do think that plenty of Waterford people have a knack of saying, "here's the town shopping centre, fairly crap, I know" and regaling them about "how the towen is dyin' boy"...

I find this thread amazing in a way. With all that has opened in JR square in the past while, I was going to start a "where's 'dead square' now lads?" thread. I'm glad I didn't. Too many people grew up in Waterford, moved to the outskirts, don't have a clue about what's going on in town, go in once in a blue moon and compare it against some glorious past that never existed. Not that there aren't plenty of poor mouth taxi drivers and others talking the place down. Some people love a hard luck story.

wellboytoo

Good post Merlante and true,(deserves more than as like)

coolperson05

Waterford's problem has, and always will be the location...too close to the other cities! And the major population centres around it, Kilkenny, Wexford, Clonmel, Carlow all very close to what is supposed to be the 'Hub' of the south-east.
It's just how things have developed. They are also even closer to Dublin and some areas have flourished into long-distance commuter locations.

Near Galway - there's only Limerick or Sligo, a substantially greater distance from each other than the south east counties. The south-east is all interdependent. And Waterford is doing the right thing pushing tourism because Waterford is within 30-50mins from our surrounding neighbours, 90mins from Cork and 2 hours from Limerick or Dublin.

Ireland only has over 4 million people, we can't have everything everywhere.

Nypd

Great post Merlante,
A lot to do with the decline of the city centre was the previous city managers drive to create the clusters of retail around the outskirts of the city.
On saying that if they hadn't of been Placed out there we would not have gotten them to Waterford, we certainly don't have city centre retail space large enough to accomadate the likes of Harvey Norman etc

savic04

merlante wrote: »

This is such a load of crap. Visually, the city has been improving steadily since about 1990..

why stop there.. the city has improved since 1980, 1970, 1960, 1950..

Of course the city has improved visually, I didnt say it wasnt in any of my posts. Keep hearing this great ESB revamp for house of Waterford Crystal, so what you're saying is, to hell with the workers who were walked on by the new owners and the city council, the same workers who pumped millions into Waterford economy the last 100 years and in many cases kept charities alive, just because the place looks well in the city?

As someone who had business in one of the areas that became pedestrianised, it damaged our turnover not enhanced it, and others around the area has said the same since, with proof offered to council at the time. We are Ireland's oldest city, with a great history, we should be competing with Cork, Limerick, Dublin and Galways instead of Clonmel, Kilkenny and other regional towns.. that's what really irks me..We need to start thinking like a city, maybe Waterford just aint big enough, I dont know.. but to me with the shops closing, lack of inward investment, the place feels like a town not a city. and people saying 'oh look how great the place is' whilst great being positive in these times, isn't really helping the situation.

If you can honestly say there isnt mich needed in Waterford city centre, I think you're crazy..

rude awakening

Nas10 wrote: »

Hi guys, have been passing through town a few times in the last few weeks and I have noticed the city has become a massive eye sore to look at so if you can all list shops in and around the city that are vacant and looking run down.

I have quite a few to mention but I will let you all add your points of view. I will start with the old eircom shop beside footlocker, think it was called 3G. I think these shops need filling or reduced rates to encourage business within the city.

I can tell you from past research the landlord wants 90k PA plus rates for this property. No business in their starting up/expansion phase could or would pay those rates

Media999

rude awakening wrote: »

the landlord wants 90k PA plus rates for this property.

You must be f""king joking!!

Why dont a group of people get together and protest until they clean it up?Name and shame the bastard who intentionally leaves it in bits and shames the county.

Name and shame anybody who dont give a sh"t about there rundown dumps in the city.

rude awakening

Media999 wrote: »

You must be f""king joking!!

Why dont a group of people get together and protest until they clean it up?Name and shame the bastard who intentionally leaves it in bits and shames the county.

Name and shame anybody who dont give a sh"t about there rundown dumps in the city.

Wish I was :-(
We had plans for the building, but the landlord wouldn't change the planning permission for the building(retail only we were advised), had the lease set as a non-negotiable rate(the 90K) and would only agree to a deal with an already established company:mad:

Nypd

Media999 wrote: »

rude awakening wrote: »

the landlord wants 90k PA plus rates for this property.

You must be f""king joking!!

Why dont a group of people get together and protest until they clean it up?Name and shame the bastard who intentionally leaves it in bits and shames the county.

Name and shame anybody who dont give a sh"t about there rundown dumps in the city.

WCC slapped a ****e load of deriliction orders on buildings, it had a big effect, I wonder did they not follow up all cases

Nas10

merlante wrote: »

Maybe you haven't been in to town in about 10 years, but the town is looking *a lot* better than it did 2/3 years ago. Penney's, Costa, Bewley's Kiosk, Lily O'Brien's, and countless other places have opened in town; the viking triangle is transforming before our eyes, House of Waterford crystal instead of ESB building! Not saying everything is perfect but there a clear upward trend at the moment, and I find it a surprising to still hear this "eye sore" talk when parts of the city are starting to look very well indeed.

Sure these new premises look nice but in fairness are we just a great place for coffee now ?? Also every town has a penneys almost these days. I do get what you are saying and agree somewhat but I was in town with the missus last friday night and is was a ghost town with nothing but what seemed like run down or vancant shops and then gangs of teenagers drinking in JR square.

You have to admit thats not attractive to people for whats deemed a city centre.

Nas10

old gregg wrote: »

If you perceive that the city has become a massive eyesore then why don't you do the hard work here and compile your own list? I assume you have a reason for this exercise?

No reason at all, I am just a normal city guy concerned for what was once a beautiful city and still is but its slipping from what I can see.

The only thing im looking to gain from this is maybe some idea's to help start something to help the unemployed or the city. I am in no way a linked to any company or have financial backing nor am I a TD but I would love to find a great idea to help our city.

DaleB91

In fairness any small shop that closes is quickly open again under another name. When pure closed epic shoes went in, when the place on the corner of pennies went costa coffee opened, the shop across from golden discs changes every 6months nearly. Point im trying to make is that the only eye sore in the city is the 3G store and the place beside Sam Mccaulys. Oh and Jurys, but since the boards went up its not too bad. I've a friend who owns a small shop in town and his business is doing great but his rates are killing him. The shop is tiny like, but f**k it he's making a wages. Outside the city the Ferrybank shopping centers, the empty slots and alongside the cinema, can't think of anywhere else really. Waterford for its size is hanging in there I'd still love a few more things for people to do around the place except drink, eat or going the cinema on a saturday night.

Nypd

Nas10 wrote: »

No reason at all, I am just a normal city guy concerned for what was once a beautiful city and still is but its slipping from what I can see.

Are you serious !
The city has never looked better, WCC are doing a great job if they can replicate the quality around the city to the same standard they done the Mall to Waterford will be a smashing place.

The only city centre place I would have a gripe about is Micheal Street, The old newspaper premises on the corner looks terrible and shops seem to close there frequently, I know the Shopping development that was ment to go there has played some part in that.

shockwave

rude awakening wrote: »

Wish I was :-(
We had plans for the building, but the landlord wouldn't change the planning permission for the building(retail only we were advised), had the lease set as a non-negotiable rate(the 90K) and would only agree to a deal with an already established company:mad:

So basically he would rather leave to place to rot rather than have someone in there and getting rent from it.

All down to greed.:mad:

Speak Now

I find the walk from Reginalds Tower to the clock tower soul destroying with all the closed shops. This would be a tourist route as well

bullpost

I'm living outside Waterford for a long time now.

We are historically declining as a city relative to the other ones, and control of this is to a certain extent beyond us. This decline of ancient cities is not just an Irish phenomenon and may well be beyond us to halt.

However,whenever I go back I am excited mostly by the progress of the tourism sector. I think this is key.
You cannot manufacture history and we have it in spades and have only relatively recently woken up to that fact, due probably to our past success of manufacturing and industry. So going forward there is huge untapped potential here and we are doing a lot of the right things - museums, Viking triangle.

wmpdd3

I agree with above, all I can say is I have been in Kilkenny twice since Christmas and I can't get over how well it is doing. I went for lunch and shopping in the town the week after Christmas and it was so busy. Yeah sales are slightly down in the shops, like 3%, but the shops said they didnt think footfall was down by much.

In the middle of Jan I dropped my brother up for a night out and collected him, every pub they went into was was full, proper full.

what ever they are doing we have to look into it.

membersonly

Media999 wrote: »

You must be f""king joking!!

Why dont a group of people get together and protest until they clean it up?Name and shame the bastard who intentionally leaves it in bits and shames the county.

Name and shame anybody who dont give a sh"t about there rundown dumps in the city.

Knock yourself out.