Limerick retail woes - the doughnut effect

ongarboy

I know it's been discussed before but an interesting article in today's Irish Times gives a good overview of how Limerick's past poor planning decisions have created a situation where Limerick city centre is struggling to compete with the suburban retail centres.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0307/1224312902802.html

THE GOOD NEWS for Limerick is that department store Brown Thomas has no plans to pull out of the city centre, despite on-going speculation that it is about to do just that. The bad news is that there seems to be no easing in the pressures – from poor planning decisions and the recession – on the city centre.

“Limerick is a classic example of the ‘doughnut’ effect, with all the development going to the outskirts,” says Mark Allen, a director of Allens, which has recently opened a gift and homeware store in Limerick city centre.<snip>

gaf1983

I read it all right, good enough overview, nothing new though, no real solutions offered but I suppose that wasn't the point of the article.

Kess73

A very simplistic and one sided view as to why the city centre is doing so poorly.


Had to laugh at the bit that complains that people are afraid to come into the city centre to shop when it is too busy thanks to rugby crowds, yet the gist of the article is that the sole problem is out of town shopping centres.


And they are saying that Cruises street is now one the worst performing retail streets in the country? It has come bottom or near bottom of the list in terms of average spend per square metre for over 15 years now.


As for the "flourishing" out of town retail parks. Only the Crescent Shopping centre is doing fairly well, and even it is carrying empty units at times. The Jetland shopping centre has 50% of it's units unoccupied, the Coonagh shopping centre has 17 units that were never filled, the Parkway shopping centre is looking at close to 50% of it's units unoccupied, the Castletroy shopping centre has more than 50% unoccupied.

Another stat that seems to be ignored is the extra drop in business in the city centre and in most of the out of town centres since the Limerick bypass was opened. There was much fanfare about the tunnel and the bypass by the city council and about how it would bring extra people into the city, but I still don't get how they thought a city bypass would bring extra people into the city it was bypassing.

Have out of town centres had an adverse effect on the town centre? Of course they have, but it is far too simplistic to suggest that they are the sole problem. In fact I would go as far as to say that it is used more often than not by certain people in power as an excuse to cover up total incompetence in other areas which needed badly to be done.

jc84

one of the main reasons i don't go into the city is the number of scumbags that are in the city center, and i know a lot of others who feel the same

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

Another stat that seems to be ignored is the extra drop in business in the city centre and in most of the out of town centres since the Limerick bypass was opened. There was much fanfare about the tunnel and the bypass by the city council and about how it would bring extra people into the city, but I still don't get how they thought a city bypass would bring extra people into the city it was bypassing.

The dual carriageway running down O'Connell street divides the city centre and makes the city centre less attractive. The problem is there's too much "through traffic". Look at the improvement in Shop Street, Patrick Street (Cork) and Grafton Street since the volume of traffic on each was massively reduced. A problem with Cruises street is it's not a real street, it's a retail street, there's no proper mix of restuarants, cafes, pubs etc on it. (not the sole problem obviously)

It's not the only problem of course, but it is a significant one. As is the boundary.

munstergirl

No mention of unemployment in article. 22,000+, plus all people in low paid jobs.

Lots of other cities/towns have successful city centres + shopping centres.

The rain does not help city centre either.

Cookiemunster

Very simplistic article. It doesn't even try to explain that the donut effect was created by the greedy county council granting permission for these shopping centres which were located just outside the city boundary to cash in on the citys population. They didn't give a damn about the city centre as it was run by a different authority, only the rates they could rake in. Now I'm not trying to defend the city councils handling of the mess, but they did generally object to these centres (Jetland, Crescent expansion, Parkway Valley).

Its a real pity that the amalgamation of the councils or even an extension of the city didn't happen years 10 - 15 years ago. The donut effect would never have occured.

Amazotheamazing

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Very simplistic article. It doesn't even try to explain that the donut effect was created by the greedy county council granting permission for these shopping centres which were located just outside the city boundary to cash in on the citys population. They didn't give a damn about the city centre as it was run by a different authority, only the rates they could rake in. Now I'm not trying to defend the city councils handling of the mess, but they did generally object to these centres (Jetland, Crescent expansion, Parkway Valley).

Typical parish pump politics I'm afraid. The truly sad part of this is that a weak city is bad for the entire region, it's as bad for Ennis, Newcastle West and Nenagh as it is for the immediate city. The councils are too busy fighting among themselves to see the entire region is losing out to the rest of the country.

On a greater scale, the cities of the so called Atlantic corridor need to work together to counter balance Dublin.

flutered

how will the mayor ? and his accomplice with their trip to china help in this matter.

liammur

ongarboy wrote: »

I know it's been discussed before but an interesting article in today's Irish Times gives a good overview of how Limerick's past poor planning decisions have created a situation where Limerick city centre is struggling to compete with the suburban retail centres.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0307/1224312902802.html

THE GOOD NEWS for Limerick is that department store Brown Thomas has no plans to pull out of the city centre, despite on-going speculation that it is about to do just that. The bad news is that there seems to be no easing in the pressures – from poor planning decisions and the recession – on the city centre.

“Limerick is a classic example of the ‘doughnut’ effect, with all the development going to the outskirts,” says Mark Allen, a director of Allens, which has recently opened a gift and homeware store in Limerick city centre.<snip>

It doesn't mention the fact that there has been 3,000 IDA jobs created in the country in the last month. Needless to say, not 1 came here.

If Dublin got no jobs, they'd know it was more than doughnuts.

Jofspring

flutered wrote: »

how will the mayor ? and his accomplice with their trip to china help in this matter.

He's going to buy a rake of iPads on the cheap in china and sell them off on cruises street bringing thousands back to the streets of limerick for their chep electronics.

Comhrá

Originally posted by Jofspring

He's going to buy a rake of iPads on the cheap in china and sell them off on cruises street bringing thousands back to the streets of limerick for their chep electronics.

Worth at least €10m. to the city?

ZombieBride

The Parkway is defiantly no competition for the city centre, it is dying on it's feet. Paco is closing in there now, when it goes the main shops will be carpet ones and phone ones (how those 3 phone shops stay running is beyond me) as for the Cash4Gold, someone was saying to me today that the only way the parkway could be saved is if they knock the central units together and put in a Penneys.
The last time I went to Superquinn I was shocked at how abandoned it was, though with the Castletroy park development I'm not surprised.
Every time I go to the Crescent I've to leave after half an hour as the lights and echo gives me a headache.

Now all these reports on how the city centre has died in the last few years don't fix things, what we need is constructive plans... an a Dell back.. that is why the city centre really died, it died along with the jobs and disposable incomes. We need disposable incomes to shop, we need shops or manufacturing, we need manufacturing for income, it is a vicious circle.

liammur

People should go on to the IDA website and bombard them with complaints about the region getting no jobs. At this stage it's a national disgrace.

I feel for the retailers in the region, but I think they don't even realise the importance of these jobs, which in itself is frightening.

diol07

Limerick needs to wake up - all the people on the dole, all the retailers struggling, all the landlords with vacant premises and all the politicians and pencil pushers. No IDA jobs, no government action or effort to replace Dell or find alternative employers, nothing. Limerick is being over looked and left to rot. Limerick needs to get out on to the streets and march and protest just like it did with Steve Collins in the fight against gangland. Bring national attention to itself. It needs to shame Michael Noonan and Willie O'Dea into actually doing something for their city, it needs to shame the IDA and the government with those stats and figures. Will it happen? Nope. But they'll all be out on the streets supporting Munster if they reach another final. If Limerick doesn't do anything nothing will happen. Limerick is Ireland's Liverpool - the difference is the Scousers can stand up for themselves. We just moan and take it up the backside.

the drifter

liammur,

There seems to be an increasing trend in your recent posts in dragging threads off topic, into discussions (and a bit of soap-boxing) regarding the IDA and their performance with regards to Limerick. We (the Midwest mods) don't mind someone mentioning it in reply to a topic on local issues but you seem to be bring the IDA up in everything.

A few examples:

Paypal

Limerick Businesses Closed.

The Dog Crap Thread

Newcastle West Thread

It's hard to say for certain, but it seems that you are using the forum for some sort of personal agenda.

We're asking now that if you wish in future to discuss the IDA and their performance that you take it to the Politics forum.

Kess73

It is all sorted. Jimmy Long is back in Limerick and has given an interview that a major Chinese investment is very likely and that ecomonic and cultural links between China and Limerick are now in place.

Between that and the other things that he has mentioned in the last 12 or so months which are on the cusp of happening (Opera Centre, skywalk between Arthurs Quay and Opera centre, Developer buying and rebuilding Sarsfield street and Liddy street, Docklands projects etc etc), the city will be a booming metropolis in no time. Or it could just be a load of guff and come 12 months time we are just still getting the same old lines being doled out by someone else.

Savage Henry

Kess73 wrote: »

It is all sorted. Jimmy Long is back in Limerick and has given an interview that a major Chinese investment is very likely and that ecomonic and cultural links between China and Limerick are now in place.

Between that and the other things that he has mentioned in the last 12 or so months which are on the cusp of happening (Opera Centre, skywalk between Arthurs Quay and Opera centre, Developer buying and rebuilding Sarsfield street and Liddy street, Docklands projects etc etc), the city will be a booming metropolis in no time. Or it could just be a load of guff and come 12 months time we are just still getting the same old lines being doled out by someone else.

Bingo! This should be pinned as a reminder

cson

Having been a student for 4 years in UL one of your main problems is the lack of integration of UL, LIT and Mary I into the city centre. Obviously the main problem is location and that's where Limerick suffers immensely in comparison to Galway, Cork and Dublin.

As regards out of town shopping centres; the sheer amount of them and haphazard nature of their planning kills them all and the city centre apart from Dooradoyle as its the biggest. Realistically a city the size of Limerick should only have a major shopping centre south (Crescent) and north (Parkway Valley if it ever came to fruition). The likes of Parkway, Jetland, Coonagh all being thrown around the place is insane.

liammur

the drifter wrote: »

liammur,

There seems to be an increasing trend in your recent posts in dragging threads off topic, into discussions (and a bit of soap-boxing) regarding the IDA and their performance with regards to Limerick. We (the Midwest mods) don't mind someone mentioning it in reply to a topic on local issues but you seem to be bring the IDA up in everything.

A few examples:

Paypal

Limerick Businesses Closed.

The Dog Crap Thread

Newcastle West Thread

It's hard to say for certain, but it seems that you are using the forum for some sort of personal agenda.

We're asking now that if you wish in future to discuss the IDA and their performance that you take it to the Politics forum.

Complete nonsense.
1. Paypal was between Limerick/Dundalk. More people than I was disappointed. I think 99% would find it appropriate to mention the IDA.
2. Limerick businesses closed - add 2 and 2 together. Half of these businesses would NOT be closed if these jobs were brought in.
3. A post about IDA on that thread certainly would have been off topic.
4. Newcastle West has been run down as the title suggested. Can we not ask why ? Can we not try to find the reasons why ALL of Limerick is lagging the rest of the country.

I am tired of our politicans and media blaming all of the regions woes on the doughnut. As an economist I know the real reason.

I post in the economics section too and am not afraid to stand up for Limerick. If that constitutes a personal agenda, I give up.

liammur

liammur wrote: »

Complete nonsense.
1. Paypal was between Limerick/Dundalk. More people than I was disappointed. I think 99% would find it appropriate to mention the IDA.
2. Limerick businesses closed - add 2 and 2 together. Half of these businesses would NOT be closed if these jobs were brought in.
3. A post about IDA on that thread certainly would have been off topic.
4. Newcastle West has been run down as the title suggested. Can we not ask why ? Can we not try to find the reasons why ALL of Limerick is lagging the rest of the country.

I am tired of our politicans and media blaming all of the regions woes on the doughnut. As an economist I know the real reason.

I post in the economics section too and am not afraid to stand up for Limerick. If that constitutes a personal agenda, I give up.

I will NEVER post here again. Claiming I hijacked the Paypal thread.
It shouldn't take me to let you know this thread had nothing to do with paypal. I didn't see any indepth analysis of what the company does or who it's customers are. This was about an IDA investment where many thought was going to Limerick. I wasn't the only one who questionned it.

Kieran O Donnell publicly questionned IDA chief Barry O Leary on the matter.
Even the sleepy LL noticed it.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/limerick_is_still_a_priority_for_jobs_says_ida_boss_1_3561184

Giving out sneaky yellow cards and claiming people have personal agendas ? More like acting like petty policemen.

Gregor Samsa

liammur wrote: »

1. Paypal was between Limerick/Dundalk. More people than I was disappointed. I think 99% would find it appropriate to mention the IDA.

I work for an American multinational in Shannon that employs about 80 people - more than half of whom live in Limerick. The IDA and Enterprise Ireland were instrumental in bringing them here, and they too had a choice between here and Dundalk. They chose here. Zagg are another example of a recent jobs success here that could have gone elsewhere.

It's fair enough to complain, but you can't win them all.

petergfiffin

The donut effect in Limerick extends beyond shopping, Dublin is often held up as “ah sure they get everything” so having lived in both I thought I’d throw in my 2 cent.

It seems that companies prefer to locate themselves in the outskirts of the city rather than the city centre (I know a lot of this is a throwback from the manufacturing days when industrial estates like Raheen sprung up) but there is no need for a lot of newer industries. If you compare this with Dublin where companies tend (where possible) to locate themselves in the city centre e.g. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn etc and other companies in sectors not affected by the current recession. These companies bring hundreds or thousands of jobs with them, which in turn sustain smaller business through people buying lunches, coffee, going for a drink after work, popping out at lunch time to do a bit of shopping, in fact a LOT of trade done in Dublin city centre is people who shop because they are in town already through work. This concentration of people in the city centre is why Dublin can make a case for things like Dart, Luas etc.

The fantastic thing is Limerick has a LOT going for it and while it would be possible to reverse the problems it will take time (and a bit of political courage). For my 2 cent what I think could be done to turn things around are:

Forget about Marks & Spencers!! It aint coming and even if it does it’s not going to make any difference!

Offer 0% rates to companies for 18-24 months for companies willing to (re)locate in the city centre with the possibility of business loans to cover the moving costs.

Opera Centre should be made into an IT equivalent of the IFSC with a small embedded joint campus between UL & LIT, offer tax incentives to companies who locate there (as per IFSC)

Introduction of Quality Bus Corridors & bus lanes (I know they’re not popular but they make a huge difference to commuters)

More active policing – there’s a lot of low-level crime that simply isn’t tolerated by Gardai in Dublin (and believe me Dublin has it’s own problems!)

Savage Henry

Well with the new cinema on the ennis road it appears the doughnut effect is alive and well. The only place a cinema was needed badly was the city preferably as central as possible. All those people would have done a lot to help bring life back into the city. But no, the planning department **** up again and now there is no hope for a city cinema.

Kess73

The moyor has just given another interview about his trip to China. On the Live95FM news he spoke of how the trip will prove to be great value for money and of how it will reap great dividends for Limerick city. He also spoke of the two High profile politicians that were sent to do the job for Limerick (yes he used the words high profile politicians to describe both himself and Kiely )

Should be on again when the 13:00 news is on.