Modern Japanese games "just suck"

gizmo

I wasn't really sure whether this insanity deserved its own thread or not but then it got me thinking about the poor sales of some of the more recent (and fantastic) Japanese titles. Anyway, for those who don't know where the above quote came from, Phil Fish (the developer of indie game Fez) came out with this gem at a Q&A session at GDC last night. The full chain of events can be found in the Develop article here.

Now, as much as I'm really really looking forward to Fez (as I have been since the first trailer back in 2007), I have to say I'm utterly baffled at the level of ignorance on display here. To make matters worse, it seems Jonathon Blow (developer of Braid) agreed with him. I'm not even sure what games he's referring to. I mean, in the last few years we've had the likes of Street Fighter IV, Demons/Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Vanquish, Xenoblade Chronicles, Mario Galaxy and Skyward Sword to name just a few, which have been stand out entries in their respective genres. Not all of these games have been particularly commerically successful but hey, when did sales ever truely reflect the quality of something?

Then again, back in 2009 Keiji Inafune made similar comments regarding the Japanese industry, declaring it "finished" while attending TGS that year. What made this even more strange was that it was the same year most of the above titles would have been on display in either a released or demo capacity.

So what say you people of the Games forum, do modern japanese games just suck or are these developers talking out of their collective asses?

penev10

What a knob. All arrogant with his upcoming title getting a bit of hype, thinking he's now some kind of iconoclast because he's been a darling of the indie scene for 15mins. I'm sure Miyamoto is restructuring Nintendo R&D as I type in wake of this massive broadside.

megaten

Very poor form. I was excited for Fez myself and I'll do my best to judge the game apart from it's creator but it's going to be hard. There's a million better and more professional ways he could have put forward his opinion rather than saying your country's games suck to some poor devs face. What's more worrying to me is that quite a lot of the crowd apparently cheered in what's meant to be a professional environment.

johnny_ultimate

Ah generalisations. The foolish man's argument.

Fez still looks good though.

lasersquad

This has been going for some years now, makes me sick to the stomach and reluctant to follow any news at all. First got me when DOCTOR Ray Muzyka spouted something about how much jRpgs suck. Now hardly a week passes by without some "industry figure" having a pop. Fez? Did they ever heard of Super Paper Mario/Crush/Echochrome? From Japan? Mind boggles/arrogant dick.
It always amused me that if we took some quirky J-game, translated, got rid of manga eyes and pretend that some 2-man Western team wrote it - it would sell gazillions on indie circuit and become a cult darling.

As for Inafune - nothing sadder than respected Japanese dev joining in on nonsense train. At some point he was really insufferable declaring how he wants to move to the West and "live like us". Scored big with Dead Rising, but then his Dark Void/Lost Planet 2 bombed totally and wait...what`s he doin now? Back in Japan, hat in hand, writing uber-Japanese games like Hyperdimension Neptunia? You don`t say.

The terrible thing is that all this trash talking combined with mega sales of CoDs/GTAs/MEs has our Nippon friends going head over heels. They wanna slice of the half-a-billion cake, which is much bigger than what FF or Zelda ever managed to bring and since they listen to all that harping too, their games and attitude start to change slowly.
So I suppose we`re gonna see much more Japanese-for-Westerners gamers in upcoming years. Vanquish/Binary Domain? Stab at Gears. Sleeping Dogs? GTA. Square even bought Unreal E license recently, as if it didn`t have superb in house engines, but now it`s making a Western RPG, so there. Nevermind the confusion over FF13.

Not saying these games are/will be bad - haven`t played these GoW clones for example but heard that they`re actually much more interesting. FF13/2 also sounds rather good - despite that Western press puts them all into 7-8 scores zone which is as well as buried. But the point is that I want Japanese games to stay Japanese in style and trying new things out. Not some strange forced bastardization.

The worse, for me at least, thing is that most of the quirky/non-mainstream games/jRpg that were so abundant on PS2/PSP/DS and beloved by countless Westerners will now stay in Japan. The constant whine about translation costs is rather nauseating, despite being a total fallacy. Also the "it-wouldn`t-sell" garbage - look at sales of Xenoblade for example.

One good thing is that now I have a very strong incentive to abandon my stagnant Chinese study and switch to Japanese.

Zeouterlimits

Ugh, assy comment. There's a point to be made, but that's just throwing **** rather than making it.

lasersquad wrote: »

FF13/2 also sounds rather good - despite that Western press puts them all into 7-8 scores zone which is as well as buried.

No. It's not. It's got an even worse story, made one of the worst characters from FFXIII a lead character and then ends with the biggest jip ever, Prince of Persia 2008 style.
Also :

lasersquad wrote: »

look at sales of Xenoblade for example.

Sales of Xenoblade were fine, but it's not some big hit. Critical reception yes.

johnny_ultimate

I should supplement my previous comment with the observation that, in general, a significant proportion of Japanese games are pretty poor. If you walk into a Japanese gaming store, you're not met with shelves of Bayonettas. You're met with shelves of generic visual novels, idol-games, low-budget / low-quality 'simple' series games, formulaic JRPGs that will (luckily) never make the journey over here... And, in fairness, a lot of the attempts at aping Western styles have met with weird and largely unsuccessful hybrids. One could argue that the likes of Vanquish are happy exceptions.

We get the best of the best (and some of the worst). But to deny that the best Japanese game developers are innovating and thinking outside the box is misguided and short-sighted.

gizmo

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I should supplement my previous comment with the observation that, in general, a significant proportion of Japanese games are pretty poor. If you walk into a Japanese gaming store, you're not met with shelves of Bayonettas. You're met with shelves of generic visual novels, idol-games, low-budget / low-quality 'simple' series games, formulaic JRPGs that will (luckily) never make the journey over here... And, in fairness, a lot of the attempts at aping Western styles have met with weird and largely unsuccessful hybrids. One could argue that the likes of Vanquish are happy exceptions.

We get the best of the best (and some of the worst). But to deny that the best Japanese game developers are innovating and thinking outside the box is misguided and short-sighted.

The issue here though is that those games generally don't make it to Western audiences so one would assume Fish is commenting solely on those which do. I'm really struggling to find any real basis for his comments. I mean, what does he think is actually lacking now compared to Japanese releases in previous years?

Zeouterlimits

gizmo wrote: »

The issue here though is that those games generally don't make it to Western audiences so one would assume Fish is commenting solely on those which do. I'm really struggling to find any real basis for his comments. I mean, what does he think is actually lacking now compared to Japanese releases in previous years?

Being able to sell to a big audience?
Being able to make HD Games? It's a well documented fact that a lot of Japanese Dev Industry have struggled with the tech this generation.
Being open-minded and engaging with the online systems and marketplaces?

I've got to agree with johnny_ultimate, games like the fantastic Vanquish have become the happy exceptions.

lasersquad

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Ugh, assy comment. There's a point to be made, but that's just throwing **** rather than making it.

I`m sorry but you lost me there a bit with your syntax. Throwing...making..well- interesting.

All I gather is that:

-you dislike FF 13.2
-have some jpgs on hand
-fail to see that there`s no need for every game to be a "big hit".

@johnny_ultimate
What was the last time you walked into a Western store?

johnny_ultimate

gizmo wrote: »

The issue here though is that those games generally don't make it to Western audiences so one would assume Fish is commenting solely on those which do. I'm really struggling to find any real basis for his comments. I mean, what does he think is actually lacking now compared to Japanese releases in previous years?

I just read the article, and yeah the comments are bizarre and generalised. I couldn't count how many of my favourite games from the last few years have been of Japanese origin, but I'd wager it would be well over 50% if not considerably more. Indeed outside the 'indie' market in the West the Japanese have proved to be consistent innovators.

Like the last twelve months alone: Skyward Sword, Xenoblade, Death Smiles / DoDonPachi, Last Story, Mario 3D Land, Child of Eden... I could continue, but they're all remarkable products and a lot of them are hugely innovative and forward-thinking. And without a doubt the best game of last year - Dark Souls - was Japanese, and outdid the likes of Skyrim in almost every regard (except perhaps budget and production values).

@johnny_ultimate
What was the last time you walked into a Western store?

Yesterday? Not denying that Western stores are every bit as unbalanced in terms of quality and variety! Just pointing out that while there's an assumption over here that Japan is some sort of haven for quality gaming (and in many ways it is) what's popular over there don't usually reflect the Japanese games that are popular over here.

Case in point: Monster Hunter

Zeouterlimits

lasersquad wrote: »

I`m sorry but you lost me there a bit with your syntax. Throwing...making..well- interesting.

He's throwing faeces at the dev who asked the question and the rest of the hard working J-Devs. Rather than starting a constructive conversation, he behaved assy.

lasersquad wrote: »

-you dislike FF 13.2
-have some jpgs on hand
-fail to see that there`s no need for every game to be a "big hit".

FFXIII-2's flaws are well documented. Whatever. It's a general opinion, shared by a lot of very sensible people, and people, like myself, who love JRPGS and Japanese Games.

My point in regard to Xenoblade (which I love), is that the even the best of Japanese games aren't hitting the huge numbers, like they used to. That's all.
I fully "see that each game doesn't need to be a big hit".

ShadowHearth

Let's be honest. The man is an idiot and need to think before opening his mouth.

It would be the same if he would say: "all black people are good at stealing bikes". He generalised the whole Japanese gaming industry same way.

There are **** games and good games same as there are good and bad western games.

It's like yatzee said once about copcam in resident evil 5 review " they are not bad people, they are just idiots ". I could say same thing about him too.

lasersquad

@Zeouterlimits

Ugh, sorry, thought it was directed at my comment, hence my warpath attitude

Haven`t played these new FFs but opinions seem not to be so negative. Well, not the lofty heights of FF12, but times are different. Flaws might be the part of confusion at Square I was talking about and in the end I believe these games are not such complete disasters as they are painted to be.

Sure, there`s a jRpg decline and it will never go back to what it was (140 + released on pS2 in the West). But I figure there`s still enough of us to support modest sales that will profit the J-folk.

gizmo

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Being able to sell to a big audience?
Being able to make HD Games? It's a well documented fact that a lot of Japanese Dev Industry have struggled with the tech this generation.
Being open-minded and engaging with the online systems and marketplaces?

I've got to agree with johnny_ultimate, games like the fantastic Vanquish have become the happy exceptions.

All true of course (although as I said above I don't regard sales as indicitive of quality) but I'd wager none of those points relate to what Fish was basing his comments on. He seems to be referring to their actual quality with regard to game design flaws with Blow also calling them "joyless husks". Now whatever about technical flaws, that argument is simply nonsense for any Japanese game I've played over the last few years.

hightower1

TBH I think whil his comment was ham fisted I think it highilghts the growing gap between games made and that sell well in the east vs games that are made and sell well in the west.

Games dev in the east is a totally different world as opposed to here in the west, its very strict and regimented, you know your place and dont get a creative word in edgeways. Not to say thats bad its just very different. In saying that the market in games is very very different also. RPGs are king over there and even comparing western RPGs and JRPGs they are really a world apart, all full mello drama, big eyes, corny dialoge and generally have more feminie creative styles. (again, not bad, just different)

Eastern culture is also very closed and they basically refuse to buy any consumer product in large numbers thats not created or made in the east. Its nearly impossible sell and xbox or american car over there.

So yeah, it was silly to say "they suck" they are just very different in terms of how their games are made, marketed and sold. The worrying thing is that this rift between east and west is only growing and evetually we will end up with two totally polarizing markets.

Zeouterlimits

gizmo wrote: »

He seems to be referring to their actual quality with regard to game design flaws with Blow also calling them "joyless husks". Now whatever about technical flaws, that argument is simply nonsense for any Japanese game I've played over the last few years.

(Going to play Devil's Advocate - Don't kill me, please)
Perhaps there are particular design issues he has problems with. Let's look at Johnny's list. (There are games I really love in this list)
Skyward Sword

-Handholdy
-Unskippable text
-The constant "You found X type of Bee" for every new kind of collectible, especially if you return to an area
-Read 'Saving Zelda'?

Xenoblade

-Fetch quests. Kill X of whatever creature. MMO like.

Death Smiles / DoDonPachi

-Visibly sexualised Teens & Pre-Teens (This is ****ing endemic and needs to stop). Think this article is a recent sum-up of **** like this.

Last Story

-I've heard mixed things, but haven't played it yet

Mario 3D Land

-Meh, it's great

Child of Eden

-Full price 3 hour experience
-Brings little new to the table since Rez (which was ~10 years ago now)

megaten

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Death Smiles / DoDonPachi

-Visibly sexualised Teens & Pre-Teens (This is ****ing endemic and needs to stop). mixed things, but haven't played it yet

What? You must be playing a different Dodonpachi to me.

lasersquad

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Just pointing out that while there's an assumption over here that Japan is some sort of haven for quality gaming (and in many ways it is) what's popular over there don't usually reflect the Japanese games that are popular over here.

Sure, I`d agree with that. It`s just these "formulaic" rpgs have quite a following there AND here, and their mass culture can be as bad as ours. And looking at western gaming - where original IP is as hard to find as turn-based RPG - and DLC-ridden sequels litter the scene, these indie darlings` comments make them sound like true jackasses.

hightower1 wrote: »

. The worrying thing is that this rift between east and west is only growing and evetually we will end up with two totally polarizing markets.

Hell, I`d love that We need more diversity. Eastern Europe does its bit but it`s nowhere near Japanese originality.

Zeouterlimits

megaten wrote: »

What? You must be playing a different Dodonpachi to me.

Sorry, I was referring to Deathsmiles.

Helix

personally, i would be inclined to agree. the vast majority of japanese games ive played have done absolutely nothing for me. they just make a style that i can't stand, pretty much

Varik

I think if Japanese devs got the business side of things sorted then we'd see a good many quality games as weaker games did not get the chance to linger in development and really necessitate release to get some money back.

Japan's developers main problem is not they make ****ty games for freaks (nor is that true for all of them) it's that they are very bad at getting games done, think of all those games that have taken decades to be released and most are Japanese.

Keeping it in Sony, in the time since Team Ico have released a new game we've seen one jak game and the entire Uncharted series. Sony were reported to be transferring people to their two Japanese studios to sort out these bad practices that are seen with many Japanese developers.

Dark souls was given an inch and if tried to take a mile they would have been ****ed and due to that they finished at a relatively low budget and in a relatively short time, i don't think these big players are going to die directly from poor quality i think that an accountant is going to look at the time and money that get's thrown into these games and then the sales can never justify it on their own.

Sony as a platform holder may tolerate some of this from polyphony (among others)to counter Forza but they'll likely get a boot up the ass before long to get them into shape. Games being **** does not destroy a developer nor does it being great guarantee success, the bottom line and the return on investment decide that.

ShadowHearth

i have to say: before this thread i was newer ever thinking about who made the game, western developer or japanese developer. i was just buying a game, because it was good. :rolleyes:

p.s. thought i am very carefull with capcom games lately. Dlc and "ultimate editions" etc...

luckyfrank

Dark souls for me is one the greatest games of all time, creamed my pants when i killed a boss

johnny_ultimate

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

(Going to play Devil's Advocate - Don't kill me, please)
Perhaps there are particular design issues he has problems with. Let's look at Johnny's list. (There are games I really love in this list)

I don't think anyone would deny the unfortunate oversexualisation inherent in Japanese gaming (the 'Bath Time' ending of Death Smiles...ahem) - heck, it's so deeply embedded in their overall contemporary culture it's almost beyond reversing. I think it's something that we have to take with a pinch of salt, TBH: it's an unfortunate, outdated way of thinking but that's what's accepted over there in the mainstream. It sells games, and it's fairly telling that Death Smiles used it as a tool to get a wider set of gamers into the most hardcore of all gaming genres. And it kind of worked for Cave, with DS being a huge success in Japan and Europe (not so much in the US, tellingly?).

The 'handholding' in Zelda (which I never found too bad) is part of Nintendo's continued goal of complete accessibility (not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself). And it's working damn well for them. I personally think they're doing a good job of balancing their 'hardcore and casual' fans at the moment... Mario 3D Land being the particularly stellar example that has plentiful rewards for both groups.

As for Child of Eden? As a 'refinement' of Rez's gameplay, graphics and music I think it was very worthwhile sequel. I'd disagree that a '3 hour experience at full price' is an inherently bad thing. Like Vanquish, it has mechanics it takes full advantage of. I'd rather a tight, focused experience over endless fetch quests (a source of contention here ). And since downloadable games have yet to take off in Japan, it's not at all surprising that they focused on traditional distribution. Perhaps telling that it wasn't long before Child of Eden was available as a lower cost download over here though...

hightower1

lasersquad wrote: »

Hell, I`d love that We need more diversity. Eastern Europe does its bit but it`s nowhere near Japanese originality.

True but the problem is that we will end up with sale of Jap made consoles / handhelds through the roof in the east and the vice versa in the west. If it carrys on like this then buiness heads will look at the cost of exporting Jap stuff west vs the potential profit and start to pull back.

We have already seen xbox pull out of retail in the east becuase of it so how long till the reverse is true.
Its vitally important that both zones intermix in terms of hardware ideas and software ideas to inspire others to follow suit or spark creativity from others games or hardware.
For instance what if a JRPG has a really new and good mechanic that could be applied to westerna games that everyone would like? If JRPGs become more and more secluded then chances are western devs wont learn from their ideas and the same can be said the other way.

TBH I think its more the eastern sides problem being so secluded, I think western consumers are a little more open to buying eastern hardware / software as opposed to eastern areas being open to buying western games / software.

Then again we cant change an entire areas attitude but its just a shame this is the way its turning. They just seem to have less and less interest in western games and consoles where we seem to have good inerest in their hardware and some - small - interest in their games eg Final fantasy / monster hunter.



Shame about their pixilating everything in other media though

lasersquad

Oversexualisation: I thought whole ME2 boiled down to one thing really: Miranda`s ass. It`s as endemic here, going back to Barbarian and certain Miss Whittaker.

Handholding: same here. Or perhaps even much worse in recent years

Zeouterlimits

Once again - I do not agree with Phil Fish. I love me some modern JP games.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

heck, it's so deeply embedded in their overall contemporary culture

I disagree. It's the small ~80,000 "otaku" who facilitate this in Japan, no more.
They're the ones that buy the crapped out pre-teen VNs (i.e. there are the occassional good ones that then hit bigger e.g. Stein's Gate) and material that sells based on this.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The 'handholding' in Zelda (which I never found too bad) is part of Nintendo's continued goal of complete accessibility (not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself). And it's working damn well for them.

Going by Skyward Sword's sales, I don't think it's working. I think they're going enough in either direction, not appeasing either crowd.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As for Child of Eden? As a 'refinement' of Rez's gameplay, graphics and music I think it was very worthwhile sequel. I'd disagree that a '3 hour experience at full price' is an inherently bad thing. Like Vanquish, it has mechanics it takes full advantage of. I'd rather a tight, focused experience over endless fetch quests (a source of contention here ). And since downloadable games have yet to take off in Japan, it's not at all surprising that they focused on traditional distribution. Perhaps telling that it wasn't long before Child of Eden was available as a lower cost download over here though...

Once again, devil's advocate. I love Child of Eden.

lasersquad wrote: »

Oversexualisation: I thought whole ME2 boiled down to one thing really: Miranda`s ass. It`s as endemic here, going back to Barbarian and certain Miss Whittaker.

Except Miranda's a fully grown woman and doesn't look 12. There's also a clear difference between sexualised and sexy. I'd say Western Games thread that line much much better.

lasersquad wrote: »

Handholding: same here. Or perhaps even much worse in recent years

I think it's a different kind, more behind the scenes (looking at that COD BLOPS video) and less "HEY. STOP HERE AND LISTEN TO ME EXPLAIN THIS. DID YOU GET THAT LINK?"
Neither is good.

Kiith

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Except Miranda's a fully grown woman and doesn't look 12. There's also a clear difference between sexualised and sexy. I'd say Western Games thread that line much much better.

Western games don't have a choice though. Considering the mass outcry from the retarded media over a side boob shot in ME1, they'd have a complete freakout over much of what you see in certain japanese games.

Zeouterlimits

Kiith wrote: »

Western games don't have a choice though. Considering the mass outcry from the retarded media over a side boob shot in ME1, they'd have a complete freakout over much of what you see in certain japanese games.

We won that out-cry. The backlash/ridiculing of Fox afterwards benefited us.
Geoff Keighley represented us really well that day.
If anything I feel they upped the anti in ME2. Miranda unzipping her top and mounting Shepard was a lot more sexual than the awkward animation but tasteful scene in ME1.

johnny_ultimate

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

I disagree. It's the small ~80,000 "otaku" who facilitate this in Japan, no more.
They're the ones that buy the crapped out pre-teen VNs (i.e. there are the occassional good ones that then hit bigger e.g. Stein's Gate) and material that sells based on this.

A small but persuasive group, alas. Death Smiles is a game from a niche genre that decided to aim at a further niche in order to gain some sort of accessibility. As far as I'm aware it has proven more popular than a lot of other Cave shooters domestically (although the slightly more accessible gameplay helps too). It's the otaku who are basically the lifeblood of many of the games we like to play. Unfortunate, no doubt, but inescapable. I'm not defending it for a second, but I think it exists for the same reason as maid cafes and hentai. There's a weird subservience in the way Japanese women are represented in media, and it's been there in Japanese society for an awful long time. That they're now closer to children than women is unfortunate.

Going by Skyward Sword's sales, I don't think it's working. I think they're going enough in either direction, not appeasing either crowd.

Zelda's a funny one, and perhaps destined to never breakthrough to the same audience who love Mario and Nintendogs. I think Mario Land 3D is definitely the game that defines Nintendo's cleverness in reaching a huge playerbase. A very challenging 'unlockable' set of worlds for the long time fans, but countless tricks and shortcuts available for more casual players. Definitely a refinement of the NSMB style of design, and sales have reflected this pretty much everywhere.

If anything I feel they upped the anti in ME2. Miranda unzipping her top and mounting Shepard was a lot more sexual than the awkward animation but tasteful scene in ME1.

Still lightyears behind a 'sensible' portrayal of sexuality in gaming though Heavy Rain was a bit bolder in that regard (sexual violence!) but still felt 'off' and cheesy. The Ballad of Gay Tony was a bit more playful with their 'full frontal' stuff, playing it for laughs. It shouldn't be a big deal or a taboo, TBH, like it isn't in film.