Modern Japanese games "just suck"

Zeouterlimits

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Zelda's a funny one, and perhaps destined to never breakthrough to the same audience who love Mario and Nintendogs. I think Mario Land 3D is definitely the game that defines Nintendo's cleverness in reaching a huge playerbase. A very challenging 'unlockable' set of worlds for the long time fans, but countless tricks and shortcuts available for more casual players. Definitely a refinement of the NSMB style of design, and sales have reflected this pretty much everywhere.

I can agree with Mario 3D Land. It's a beauty

lasersquad

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Except Miranda's a fully grown woman and doesn't look 12. There's also a clear difference between sexualised and sexy. I'd say Western Games thread that line much much better.

ZOMG I forgot. Western games are "mature", after all. Tits all over the gaff in The Witcher underline not misogyny but strong women characters who use their sexuality to...(please)

Other small detail: majority of characters in J games are styled as teens/kids. It`s a thing how they perceive themselves, it makes Westerners think these games are "for kids" while they`re anything but.

Sure, I hate this aspect of J-culture where you have to have laws against used panties vendors and separate Tube carriages for men and women. And I wish there was less of it in videogames. But it is what it is, and every one of these arguments can be leveled against western games too.

I wouldn`t call huge red arrows pointing to things, auto aims, and constant pruning of any gameplay element that might be deemed too-difficult-for-newcomers "behind the scenes". Neither is good - true, but that thing with Navi is an old chestnut, and if anything there`s much less handholding in J-games than here - for which they`re being also criticized.

Retr0gamer

I think people are ignoring the handheld market when it comes to japanese developers. The amount of amazing and original games coming out on the handheld system by japanese developers far eclipses what western developers are doing on the big consoles.

As for the poor depiction of sexual scenes in western games? Go play Persona 3 and 4 or Catherine and see just how far ahead some of the best japanese developers are in that area. It's not all tits and tentacles.

As for the sick Otaku stuff, it's a small minority thet are catering to, these games are sent out with budgets and sales expectations of about 20,000 - 40,000, not exactly mass market or representing a majority of the market.

Zeouterlimits

lasersquad wrote: »

ZOMG I forgot. Western games are "mature", after all. Tits all over the gaff in The Witcher underline not misogyny but strong women characters who use their sexuality to...(please)

Other small detail: majority of characters in J games are styled as teens/kids. It`s a thing how they perceive themselves, it makes Westerners think these games are "for kids" while they`re anything but.

Sure, I hate this aspect of J-culture where you have to have laws against used panties vendors and separate Tube carriages for men and women. And I wish there was less of it in videogames. But it is what it is, and every one of these arguments can be leveled against western games too.

I wouldn`t call huge red arrows pointing to things, auto aims, and constant pruning of any gameplay element that might be deemed too-difficult-for-newcomers "behind the scenes". Neither is good - true, but that thing with Navi is an old chestnut, and if anything there`s much less handholding in J-games than here - for which they`re being also criticized.

1) Obviously I've insulted something precious to your heart, I'm sorry for that.
2) Buying Swim-wear dlc for Serah in FFXIII-2, trading on these Otaku fappings, goes against that. Plenty of adults in that game. This is a premier Japanese title, from one of the biggest Publishers and once heralds of Japanese gaming (and with handheld titles like Tactics Ogre, I think that's still true).
3) The Witcher : You see just as much of Gerald in any W2 sex scene. Same can't be said for JP. Where's the sexy male version of Deathsmiles?
4) The first half of Super Mario 3D Land is a snoozefest of easiness.
Also "old chestnut" isn't in any way a good excuse. But I'll agree, it's titles like Demon's & Dark Souls that are leading the way in stepping back from hand holding.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I think people are ignoring the handheld market when it comes to japanese developers. The amount of amazing and original games coming out on the handheld system by japanese developers far eclipses what western developers are doing on the big consoles.

As for the poor depiction of sexual scenes in western games? Go play Persona 3 and 4 or Catherine and see just how far ahead some of the best japanese developers are in that area. It's not all tits and tentacles.

Agreed, but those few Atlus titles (and considering that character in Devil Summoner 2..) are somewhat lost in swath of pre-teen sexualisation.
Then there's the topic of Love Plus.

Mark Hamill

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Mario 3D Land

-Meh, it's great

How about its incredibly derivative and short? The tanooki suit is 24 years old at this stage, the 3D is barely used, except in a few gimmicly puzzles, the game

has 16 worlds, but each world only has about 5 levels and the levels in the secret eight worlds are actually just slightly more difficult versions of the levels in the first eight worlds (am I the only who noticed this? Most of the levels in the secret worlds were nearly the exact same as the first eight, except some only had temporary platforms, you were followed by a purple ghost or you had to constantly kill enemies for time). The only thing new in the game was the boomarang suit and it wasn't very useful and you only got it later in the game.

.

Kinski

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for the poor depiction of sexual scenes in western games? Go play Persona 3 and 4 or Catherine and see just how far ahead some of the best japanese developers are in that area. It's not all tits and tentacles.

Unambitious keyboard monkey vacillates between staying with attractive but commitment happy "sensible" girlfriend or running off with very sexy but bonkers nymphette, while being posed with "moral" questions which reduce the complexities of sexual attraction and romantic attachment to either/or choices like "Looks or brains, which is more important?" Though I like the game, and while it may be some way ahead of tentacle porn, its gender politics are still pretty suspect, so let's not pretend that it's a subtle, nuanced exploration of love and desire.

As for the comments from this guy, he's obviously making silly generalisations, but from a Western perspective I guess there's a grain of truth there, insofar as some of the more distinctively Japanese genres like RPGs with casts composed entirely of stock characters and gameplay of the randomy-battle, collect-em-up, level-grindy variety have very little appeal over here.

Zeouterlimits

It's very, very, very rare I like a Kotaku article, but I did this one.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How about its incredibly derivative and short? The tanooki suit is 24 years old at this stage, the 3D is barely used, except in a few gimmicly puzzles, the game

has 16 worlds, but each world only has about 5 levels and the levels in the secret eight worlds are actually just slightly more difficult versions of the levels in the first eight worlds (am I the only who noticed this? Most of the levels in the secret worlds were nearly the exact same as the first eight, except some only had temporary platforms, you were followed by a purple ghost or you had to constantly kill enemies for time). The only thing new in the game was the boomarang suit and it wasn't very useful and you only got it later in the game.

.

An argument could be made, sure. I was kind of focusing on the others. I still say there's a lot to love there, mainly in the second half of the somewhat short game.

Mark Hamill

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

It's very, very, very rare I like a Kotaku article, but I did this one.

An argument could be made, sure. I was kind of focusing on the others. I still say there's a lot to love there, mainly in the second half of the somewhat short game.

But the second half is a rip off of the first? Or do you disagree? I'm not saying the game is bad mind, its still quite enjoyable, but compared to the likes of Mario Bros 3 which had a much greater variety of levels and power ups (MB3 had six power ups, on top of mushroom-fire flower-invincibility star, 3DLand had 3), its pretty lazy.

lasersquad

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Obviously I've insulted something precious to your heart, I'm sorry for that.

That`s quite unnecessary and this time really didn`t make much sense to me.

If they`re adults, then where`s the sexualised teens? Anyway it seems we`re arguing against each other instead on the topic - like I said I`m not a fan of what you rather charmingly describe as "Otaku fappings" either.

What Retr0gamer says about handhelds couldn`t be more on point - for me absolute saviours of quirky, original, often 2D productions. Isn`t that what our dear Indie Dev was railing against? Crush & Echochrome - 2 PSP classics that his Fez borrows from, with added Minecraft look. Or shall we say 3D Dot Game Heroes look?

K.O.Kiki

hightower1 wrote: »

[...]

Eastern culture is also very closed and they basically refuse to buy any consumer product in large numbers thats not created or made in the east. Its nearly impossible sell and xbox or american car over there.
[...]

Xbox didn't sell because PlayStation was too deeply entrenched, and its core games didn't appeal to the Japanese market (FPS games just don't sell as well as in America).

And American cars just plain suck; don't see them selling well over here either! :pac:
Funny thing though, Western cars are selling in CRAZY numbers in China now; for some brands more than 50% of their sales are from Chinese consumers now.

megaten

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

It's very, very, very rare I like a Kotaku article, but I did this one.

I feel a lot of people are missing the point with this whole thing. It doesn't really matter that he thinks Japanese games are ****. The fact that he feels it's necessary to say it to some Japanese dudes face at a Q&A is what's awful to me. You'd think at an event for professionals some people would have to cop on to watch their mouths.

Kiith

megaten wrote: »

I feel a lot of people are missing the point with this whole thing. It doesn't really matter that he thinks Japanese games are ****. The fact that he feels it's necessary to say it to some Japanese dudes face at a Q&A is what's awful to me. You'd think at an event for professionals some people would have to cop on to watch their mouths.

I don't think most people are missing the point, but i do thing that people are blowing it way out of proportion. It wasn't a "**** you, **** Japan and **** you're ****ty games!" type comment. As he said, it wasn't particularly tactful, but he's perfectly entitles to think that they suck. And he's just as entitled to say so, regardless of where he is.

megaten

There's a time and place though, and it really isn't GDC.

Kinski

megaten wrote: »

There's a time and place though, and it really isn't GDC.

To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he wasn't just running off his mouth - maybe his statements were calculated to cause maximum provocation. If you are a big fan of Japanese games, but feel the industry over there has generally been heading in the wrong direction, then what better time to say so? If J-developers walk out thinking, "We'll show you, you smug prick" then he may just have got the response he was looking for. At least there's a debate going on now.

lasersquad

Kiith wrote: »

I don't think most people are missing the point, but i do thing that people are blowing it way out of proportion.

It`s not "out of proportion" if you`re a fan of Japanese games and have been watching this kind of attitude over last few years. And that`s thanks to the fact that it is Western games on a Western console that are selling gazillions these days. Fair enough but why the smugness?

I have nothing against disputing merits & demerits of Japanese hard/software but not in this context. Especially given that: a) he`s simply a hypocrite - Nippon`s gaming legacy is rather indisputable, and his own game heavily influenced b) Western games are in creative doldrums themselves - unless you`re fan of countless sequels, streamlining, day-one DLC/Online passes etc.

Anyway, guess I ranted enough in this thread. To be honest I consider this battle lost and am actually looking backward to my huge old-gen backlog. Anything new that makes its way to this shores in the future will be an added bonus. Like Ni no Kuni/Etrian Odyssey 4 for example

Zeouterlimits

lasersquad wrote: »

Nippon`s gaming legacy

Let me guess, Phil Fish just shot himself in the foot?

It's like you're trying to fufill the stereotype.

penev10

The main point is really that we need all the different styles of games to prevent genres from becoming homogenised and stagnant. If developers only concentrated on genres that appeal to the majority we'd miss out on some gems of games, new genres wouldn't appear and progress within the industry would be even slower. Even if you're not in the 3% that like SRPGs you shouldn't advocate the dismissal of all studios that produce them. As we've seen time and time again where great innovation comes from harnessing aspects of one genre and blending them with another to create new experiences and seminal games.

lasersquad

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Let me guess, Phil Fish just shot himself in the foot?

It's like you're trying to fufill the stereotype.

I`m sorry bud, but your cryptic messages are truly lost on me in this thread. Perhaps you`d be willing to elaborate a bit - this senile oldschooler is really kinda slow - how does this snappy quote + pointless message (which I`m sure you keep handy for such occasions) make any sense whatsoever in the context of my post?

johnny_ultimate

Know what does suck? Publishers who don't include original Japanese voicetracks. My enjoyment of the Last Story is diminished fifteen percent or so by the iffy British voice acting. Nippon Ichi and xseed know the score.

Varik

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Know what does suck? Publishers who don't include original Japanese voicetracks. My enjoyment of the Last Story is diminished fifteen percent or so by the iffy British voice acting. Nippon Ichi and xseed know the score.

I think the last Dynasty warrior game had a Japanese voice pack, may have been a different game but i remember seeing something on PSN. And then there are some games that take this further, the new one piece games had all text translated and included subtitles for the western release on wii game but no English audio at all.

Syferus

Honestly, in the main Japanese developers have fell bounds behind the West since the last generation. The best Japanese games involve intricate little touches and details and that's no longer something most of them can do on the main stage anymore because of the disparity in resources. Handheld and, to a far lesser degree, downloadable has become their most sucessful hunting grounds. An almost complete failure to see the advent of online gaming contributed massively to Japanese developers losing their position in the industry.

johnny_ultimate

Varik wrote: »

I think the last Dynasty warrior game had a Japanese voice pack, may have been a different game but i remember seeing something on PSN. And then there are some games that take this further, the new one piece games had all text translated and included subtitles for the western release on wii game but no English audio at all.

Yakuza is an equally good example: a series that toyed with (awful) English voice acting, but eventually just settled on subs. It's cheaper, more focused on the target market and adds much more credibility and authenticity to the setting.

Syferus wrote: »

. Handheld and, to a far lesser degree, downloadable has become their most sucessful hunting grounds. An almost complete failure to see the advent of online gaming contributed massively to Japanese developers losing their position in the industry.

The Japanese game industry often aims at their own domestic market first and foremost, so the lack of online play is not a big deal in Japan. Mobile and 3G particularly has failed to take off due to huge tariffs associated with it. Ad-hoc games - Monster Hunter being the prime example - have emerged more successfully, and there seems to be a trend towards more 'social' type online features over there.

That said, Demons' Souls was perhaps the most brilliant, inventive and compelling use of online this generation. Online is not just tacking on a deathmatch mode. Many Japanese developers have recognised this.

Syferus

Japanese development is more scizofrentic than that. They appeal to their home market with a big portion of their production budgets but over the last decade they've become obsessed with trying, and almost invariably failing, to tailor games for western audiences. They've mostly thumbed their noses at western multiplayer standards and that's a huge reason their games rarely sell to their own expectations. Only recently have they started to grasp that to remain a global force and not the remit of niche fans - like ourselves - they need to do more than make games based off their own image of western tastes.

They have to somehow walk the tighrope of western functionality and homegrown Japanese design if they want to repair their reputation at large.

johnny_ultimate

I think even the most hardcore fan of Japanese gaming would acknowledge that Japanese developers' attempts at aping Western gaming styles have met with a handful of gems, a load of mixed successes and dozens of outright failures. It's also lead to a bit of an identity crisis for companies and games that were once torchbearers of Japanese gaming - Final Fantasy being a prime example.

From a personal perspective, I'm glad Japanese game developers don't always embrace MP. While I love Dragon Quest IX, the whole thing felt a bit diluted due to the multiplayer component (not even online!) and am a bit concerned they're going further in that direction with DQX. When I hear that Mass Effect 3 is integrating a (for me, and many others) unwanted MP component that somewhat effects your ability to progress in the SP segment, it's a little depressing. So I'm always glad to see a sprawling, single player JRPG, or at least a game that is subtle in its online integration (leaderboards and the like). Most of my favourite recent games (Japanese and otherwise) are almost entirely offline, and it's for me one welcome thing that separates Japan from the West.

Also worth pointing out that this is one of the best times in gaming history to be a fan of Japanese gaming. With the likes of Dragon Quest, Cave shooters and countless DS/PSP eccentricities getting released: genres and games that were once out of bounds to all but the most enthusiastic of importers are finally easily available to English-speaking gamers.

lasersquad

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Also worth pointing out that this is one of the best times in gaming history to be a fan of Japanese gaming. With the likes of Dragon Quest, Cave shooters and countless DS/PSP eccentricities getting released: genres and games that were once out of bounds to all but the most enthusiastic of importers are finally easily available to English-speaking gamers.

Sorry but that "best time" would have to be the PS2 era. Interesting PAL/NTSC releases were countless then, no need to import unless you wanted to go really deep. You didn`t need desperate petitions, so some game will be finally allowed in, with plenty of huffin`n puffin. Also: in full 3D on a big screen.

Much as I love DS/PSP titles, these consoles are on a way out (with PSP always hated in the West for some obscure reason). 3DS has been around for a year and I`d really struggle to name a game apart from your obvious Zeldas/MGS that I`d like to play. All the best stuff stays in Japan these days. And don`t even start me on Valkyria Chronicles 3

Also I`m not sure which gaming styles they`re supposed to ape - since they either invented most of them or at least adapted and modernized so heavily as to call their own. The only ones I can think about are this 3rd person shooter hybrids.

johnny_ultimate

PS2 was certainly a good time too, no denying that. It's been two pretty damn good generations of niche gaming: with the 360 and digital distribution being the unlikely highlights of the current gen consoles.

I'm also curious to see how 3DS fares, especially since it's region locked which will prevent the like of an Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan breakout hit. That said, I have high hopes for Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

lasersquad

I`m not a big fan of digi distribution but this could be a saving grace for these more obscure titles. If only the big Japanese pubcos wern`t so hard headed and let teams of independent translators to make deals and publish games here we would be in for a treat. Sod the voiceovers, let`s settle for text.

Recettear was translated by a couple of enthusiasts and sold mindboggling 170 000 copies - on Steam only.

Layton is one example of a Japanese game with Western stylistics done right. Curious Village graphics are just about the best on DS I`d say.

richymcdermott

I find it funny cause i feel the western market is somewhat in a worse state than japan in terms on fresh new ideas and things so obscure you cant help but love.
Though not all western developers are like this i am tending to fall out of the cluster bombs of military shooters or buff out steriod space marines that holds a gernades between the legs and hold to machine guns in each hand bombing the f word throughout :pac:
Japan since i can remember leads the line for we never experienced or felt before while westerns only care for the next cod installment

megaten

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Yakuza is an equally good example: a series that toyed with (awful) English voice acting, but eventually just settled on subs. It's cheaper, more focused on the target market and adds much more credibility and authenticity to the setting.

Depends, If you dont know for sure your putting out an overseas version and factor that into the initial contract with the voice actors re-licencing can be very expensive. More-so than dubbing the game in english.

Retr0gamer

Kinski wrote: »

Unambitious keyboard monkey vacillates between staying with attractive but commitment happy "sensible" girlfriend or running off with very sexy but bonkers nymphette, while being posed with "moral" questions which reduce the complexities of sexual attraction and romantic attachment to either/or choices like "Looks or brains, which is more important?" Though I like the game, and while it may be some way ahead of tentacle porn, its gender politics are still pretty suspect, so let's not pretend that it's a subtle, nuanced exploration of love and desire.

The direction you take in the game may be along a few set paths but it's a lot better than the binary deicsions most games represent you with when it comes to relationships. Can you honestly tell me the name of a game that has dealt with relationships in such a well written and intelligent manner than Catherine?

Kinski wrote: »

RPGs with casts composed entirely of stock characters and gameplay of the randomy-battle, collect-em-up, level-grindy variety have very little appeal over here.

Level Grindy is not something I'd associate at all with JRPGs. One of my favourite things about JRPGs is that they require absolutely not level grinding or fluff to get through. Even the more niche dungeon crawlers like Etrian Odyssey that make a big deal of level grinding do so in an entertaining manner. So I don't get why people bother to pretend that JRPGs actually require any sort of level grinding to beat?