Landlord coming to stay without permission

The_Conductor

Not entirely accurate.
Witholding tax is based on the Irish tax rates- and while the majority of it is indeed chargeable at whatever the prevailing standard rate of tax is (aka 20% in this instance)- where the lease specifies rights or obligations other than the standard letting of the property, it becomes subject to witholding tax at the 'Relevant Contracts Rate' (currently 35%).

You really need to get professional advice on this- even the presumption that the only rate of witholding tax for residential tenancies is 20% can be erroneous in certain circumstances.

Motorist

All OP or anyone else has to do to find out is simply ring Revenue and give them the PPS number of the Owner.

Jesus Shaves

Motorist wrote: »

I skimmed through the whole thread.

In my opinion, the OP is the one who was at fault by threatening to withhold the last months rent. That is what escalated the situation. This was not the correct route to go down and doing this on the basis of talking to another tenant who she did not know was foolish. Who knows what went on between the landlord and the previous tenant.

OP is the last person I would would want as a tenant. It also seems from post 77 that OP left the house in a terrible state - far more than usual wear and tear. I would love to hear the full version with all facts included from the landlord if OP has given this version in her biased telling of what went on.

The OP is also foolish to think that the alleged tax evasion of the landlord gets passed onto her.

I really hope that you're not a landlord with a clueless post like that

Jesus Shaves

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Never called Gardai. Had intended calling Gardai when I had more threatening texts and emails. i will seek legal advice next week and see if a case can be made.

I'd go to the gardai ASAP

Milk & Honey

smccarrick wrote: »

Not entirely accurate.
Witholding tax is based on the Irish tax rates- and while the majority of it is indeed chargeable at whatever the prevailing standard rate of tax is (aka 20% in this instance)- where the lease specifies rights or obligations other than the standard letting of the property, it becomes subject to witholding tax at the 'Relevant Contracts Rate' (currently 35%).

You really need to get professional advice on this- even the presumption that the only rate of witholding tax for residential tenancies is 20% can be erroneous in certain circumstances.

Most unlikely to apply to a residential letting.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/rct/non-resident-contractors.html

Relevant Contracts Tax applies to payments made by a principal contractor to a subcontractor under a relevant contract (this is a contract to carry out, or supply labour for the performance of relevant operations in the construction, forestry or meat processing industry). Payments to subcontractors in respect of a relevant contract are generally made under deduction of tax, but payments can also be made gross where the subcontractor satisfies certain conditions.

RCT applies to both resident and non-resident contractors operating in the construction, forestry or meat processing industry.

Non-resident contractors should familiarise themselves with their

Milk & Honey

Motorist wrote: »

All OP or anyone else has to do to find out is simply ring Revenue and give them the PPS number of the Owner.

Yes. It might help to avoid uninformed posts on this site telling tenants they have nothing to worry about.

djimi

I cannot believe that with all that you have said on here about what has gone on that you have not called the Gardai. The first time he arrived at my door I would have been onto my local Gardai, showing them the abusive texts and informing them of this threatening manner. Then every other time he showed up again I would be back onto them.

If you want to take this further then you will want it on record that you have informed the Gardai.

Marcusm

smccarrick wrote: »

Not entirely accurate.
Witholding tax is based on the Irish tax rates- and while the majority of it is indeed chargeable at whatever the prevailing standard rate of tax is (aka 20% in this instance)- where the lease specifies rights or obligations other than the standard letting of the property, it becomes subject to witholding tax at the 'Relevant Contracts Rate' (currently 35%).

You really need to get professional advice on this- even the presumption that the only rate of witholding tax for residential tenancies is 20% can be erroneous in certain circumstances.

I would be very surprised to see payments for a relatively standard periodic tenancy falling under(what we used to call) the sub contractors tax deduction scheme.

mdebets

Marcusm wrote: »

I would be very surprised to see payments for a relatively standard periodic tenancy falling under(what we used to call) the sub contractors tax deduction scheme.

Looks, like you will be very surprised:
Citizens Information

Doc Ruby

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Never called Gardai. Had intended calling Gardai when I had more threatening texts and emails. i will seek legal advice next week and see if a case can be made.

Call the guards BFH, and keep a careful record of all interactions with this lunatic - times, dates, events. From the sounds of it you could be quids in should it ever come before a court, following you to a new address is real and substantive damage, slander at a minimum.

Milk & Honey

mdebets wrote: »

Looks, like you will be very surprised:
Citizens Information

Where does it say anything in that link about the sub contractors tax deduction i.e. the relevant contracts witholding tax?

Marcusm

mdebets wrote: »

Looks, like you will be very surprised:
Citizens Information

I think you've misconstrued my post; relevant contracts tax is 35% and entirely separate to what you've cited. The deduction at source of standard rate income tax from rents paid to non resident landlords (including indeed the Irish branches of foreign investors such as isurance companies) is a topc with which I have been familiar or nearly 25 years; the application of relevant contracts tax to such payments is not only novel but, I strongly suspect, erroneous.

Motorist

Just as an aside, does rent allowance come separate from social welfare ? Does the government pay for the persons rent in full ? Is there any limit to this?

Jesus Shaves

Motorist wrote: »

Just as an aside, does rent allowance come separate from social welfare ? Does the government pay for the persons rent in full ? Is there any limit to this?

there's a state benefits forum

Zamboni

The OP ignored all the advice from the start to contact the Gardai.
The OP ignored the CWO advice on paying the last month rent.
There is a lot more to this story and we're only getting one side.

Agent Smith

Bump for update from OP

fjk49er

Zamboni wrote: »

The OP ignored all the advice from the start to contact the Gardai.
The OP ignored the CWO advice on paying the last month rent.
There is a lot more to this story and we're only getting one side.

I agree with this. It obviously wasn't an ideal situation, and the Landlord seems like a horrible person to deal with but you dealt with it badly from the outset and throughout.

Henry Ford III

Just read the thread. It's very interesting.

Landlord clearly is way out of order on several fronts. However OP seems to have poured petrol on the fire by assuming deposit wouldn't be repaid.

Graces7

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Just read the thread. It's very interesting.

Landlord clearly is way out of order on several fronts. However OP seems to have poured petrol on the fire by assuming deposit wouldn't be repaid.

May I ask if you have ever tried to get a deposit back promply off a landlord! Can take months even when there is no trouble.. we left our last rental without paying the last month;s rent as we knew there would be issues as we were taking him to PTRB tribunal as he was threatening us with illegal eviction. We could not afford the new deposit etc without the deposit. Our lawyer said that strictly speaking it was illegal but given our poverty etc ...

With a LL like this one, no chance and the less contact the better..

Time before it took four months. Excuses and delays.

It is not a good thing toi have to do but sometimes necessary

Henry Ford III

Graces7 wrote: »

May I ask if you have ever tried to get a deposit back promply off a landlord! Can take months even when there is no trouble.. we left our last rental without paying the last month;s rent as we knew there would be issues as we were taking him to PTRB tribunal as he was threatening us with illegal eviction. We could not afford the new deposit etc without the deposit. Our lawyer said that strictly speaking it was illegal but given our poverty etc ...

With a LL like this one, no chance and the less contact the better..

Time before it took four months. Excuses and delays.

It is not a good thing toi have to do but sometimes necessary

You can certainly ask.

The thing is that your experience, or anybody elses didn't entitle the OP to withold rent.

The risk of a slow/difficult return of a deposit is one that every tenant must take.

runway16

I'm sorry, but I actually cannot believe I'm reading some of this.

You are not permitted to withhold the last months rent. That is in every rental agreement I have ever seen. You pay rent until the last day of your agreement - and the deposit is returned to you less any damages.

The LL had caused no issue until YOU with held the rent. You took it upon yourself to do that, and then when he reacts, he is bullying you?

I'm sorry - but had you kept to your agreement, none of this would have happened. Completely your own making.

Graces7

The last two posters are out of touch with the realities of life renting in Ireland. Period. And of surviving on welfare also. Period. So you can dictate as much as you like. Water off a duck's back here.

NB I am not the OP. It was a serious step we took with our last rental but fully justified and fully necessary to get out of an abusive situation. And yes I would do it again, given a situation such as the OP found themselves in. In that last place, for different reasons, we were in physical danger. Not our fault. And as I said, we took legal advice.

We are careful and law abiding citizens and were appalled that we had to do this to escape. To find the rent and new deposit on a new place. No ll should offer violence and violation when he could simply deal via the PTRB.

You might care to look up past threads here dealing with this.

The system in Ireland is often unworkable in such situations. Disabled pensioners have no resources to fall back on when things go wrong. lls don't care.

And clearly the LL knew this as he made no attempt to defend himself at the PTRB tribunal he faced for his attempted illegal eviction. No counter claim was made. The house incidentally was unsafe and in places a health hazard which he knew and had refused to deal with.

Survival and safety above pharisiaical legalism; and that is my last word on this.

Have a nice day as we will!!!

djimi

In fairness, while it might be the practical thing to do in a given situation where you feel that your landlord is not going to return your deposit, it still doenst make it right to come on here and give someone advice to break the terms of their lease and put themselves in a position where they are the ones in the wrong. In the case of the OP, while the landlord sounds like a right piece of work to start with, the whole situation was made a lot worse by the fact that the OP told the landlord that they would not be paying their last months rent, and all because they felt that they might not get their deposit back.

piperh

I was reading this with interest at what started as a horrible position for the op but my curiosity was peaked (and to much time on hands :rolleyes: ) so went looking for where it says its illegal for her to withhold rent but couldn't find it. What law states its illegal to withhold rent or is it a simple breach of contract? And if its against the law whats the penalties?

jmayo

Graces7 wrote: »

The last two posters are out of touch with the realities of life renting in Ireland. Period. And of surviving on welfare also. Period. So you can dictate as much as you like. Water off a duck's back here.

I do agree.
And it doesn't matter if you are on welfare or not as money is tight for a lot of folk.
Yes you meet honest decent landlords, but you also find the ones who will try and royally screw you over at any given opportunity.
A lot of Irish have always been good at screwing people over given the chance and landlords are just a subset of this.

Years ago in college, when I continued to rent over the summer, I withheld last months rent as I knew damm well that every one of the tenants who left at end of term had huge hassel getting any of their deposits back.
And no the place was not a pigstye or damaged.
The landlord had a long reputation of doing this across his 10 odd rental properties.
I did not want, nor could not afford, the hassel of chasing a person who had absolutely no qualms or problems breaking rental agreements and leaving me out of pocket.

Some posters here can get all high and mighty about terms of contracts and the legality of withholding rent, but they are not the ones going to be screwed over.
The same landlords that they demand tenants to honour agreements with, are the very ones who are more than happy to ignore contracts when it suits them.

smirker

piperh wrote: »

I was reading this with interest at what started as a horrible position for the op but my curiosity was peaked (and to much time on hands :rolleyes: ) so went looking for where it says its illegal for her to withhold rent but couldn't find it. What law states its illegal to withhold rent or is it a simple breach of contract? And if its against the law whats the penalties?

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (THEFT AND FRAUD OFFENCES) ACT, 2001
Obtaining services by deception.

7.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception obtains services from another is guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person obtains services from another where the other is induced to confer a benefit on some person by doing some act, or causing or permitting some act to be done, on the understanding that the benefit has been or will be paid for.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), a person obtains services where the other is induced to make a loan, or to cause or permit a loan to be made, on the understanding that any payment (whether by way of interest or otherwise) will be or has been made in respect of the loan.


6) A person guilty of theft is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

djimi

piperh wrote: »

I was reading this with interest at what started as a horrible position for the op but my curiosity was peaked (and to much time on hands :rolleyes: ) so went looking for where it says its illegal for her to withhold rent but couldn't find it. What law states its illegal to withhold rent or is it a simple breach of contract? And if its against the law whats the penalties?

Your lease is a legal document and by not paying your rent you are breaking the terms of said legal document. Chances are nothing will come of it as the landlord has your deposit and the time and effort involved in persuing what is a relatively small amount of money is not worth it, but if the landlord was to open a case against the tenant to recover the money owed (say the deposit had to be used to pay for damages or bills outstanding) then the tenant wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

Bottom line is that the tenant is not paying their rent; doenst matter whether its the first months or the last months.

piperh

smirker wrote: »

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (THEFT AND FRAUD OFFENCES) ACT, 2001
Obtaining services by deception.

7.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception obtains services from another is guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person obtains services from another where the other is induced to confer a benefit on some person by doing some act, or causing or permitting some act to be done, on the understanding that the benefit has been or will be paid for.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), a person obtains services where the other is induced to make a loan, or to cause or permit a loan to be made, on the understanding that any payment (whether by way of interest or otherwise) will be or has been made in respect of the loan.


6) A person guilty of theft is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

Thanks Smirker, Thanks Djimi. Interesting reading, i suppose i always just assumed that landlords wouldn't bother but thats easy to say being neither a landlord nor a tennant. I always also assume people are going to treat their rental properties the way my brother and friends have and taken pride in their homes be it a private or corporation landlord.

djimi

jmayo wrote: »

Some posters here can get all high and mighty about terms of contracts and the legality of withholding rent, but they are not the ones going to be screwed over.
The same landlords that they demand tenants to honour agreements with, are the very ones who are more than happy to ignore contracts when it suits them.

Its nothing to do with getting high and mighty. This is an advice forum and to tell someone to break the terms of a legal contract is bad and potentially dangerous advice.

Whether or not withholding the last months rent is the right thing to do or not on a practical level is irrelevant; only the person themselves knows whether or not that is the right call to make in their given situation (in your case it almost certainly was, but not everyone is as clear cut as that).

Motorist

I agree the OP made his own problems and then comes on here bltching about his landlord.

What does come to light here though from this thread though is the farce of landlords holding deposits. They should be held by a third party - now that would be a useful quango!