What planet do these tree huggers live on?

irishgeo

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0307/slane.html

Meanwhile, the Save Newgrange group has welcomed today's announcement and has called for the immediate implementation of a HGV ban of the village.
Campaign spokesperson Vincent Salafia said: "This is a huge victory for heritage and sustainable development in Ireland.
"The UNESCO World Heritage Site is our most popular tourist attraction, which will play a key role in our economic recovery, and it deserves the highest level of legal protection.
"We urge the authorities to immediately implement a HGV ban in the village, in order to protect drivers, villagers and the heritage value of the village."

I am all for protecting world hertiage sites but if Vincent thinks that newgrange is the solution to our economic problems he is very much mistaken unless we bump the admission price to 10k or something.

I wonder what grip of reality these people have. Its a great site and we don't want roads running through it but it will not play a key role in our economic recovery.

Immaculate Pasta

Earth last time I checked

Rented Mule

I'm going to guess that you are too young to remember when tourism WAS the economy.

micropig

About time this HGV ban was brought in, that bridge in Slane is lethal...It's a bit away from Newgrange though

More likely they refused it because of this:

Other factors included the belief among board members that it had not been proven that no appropriate alternative was available, and it could have diverted traffic off the M1 tolled motorway.

staker

Vincent phrased it like that to garner public reaction, nothing more.
I know cos he told me down the pub last night.

WindSock

Urrr. Pandora?

44leto

Other factors included the belief among board members that it had not been proven that no appropriate alternative was available, and it could have diverted traffic off the M1 tolled motorway.

This was probably the real reason. Besides Newgrange was actually restored, so its a modern construction using supposed ancient techniques, but the results are more an interpretation,(why they did that I will never know).

micropig

44leto wrote: »

This was probably the real reason. Besides Newgrange was actually restored, so its a modern construction using supposed ancient techniques, but the results are more an interpretation,(why they did that I will never know).

Very true, they just guessed what it looked like

boynesider

This bypass would have no impact on Newgrange. It would be a few miles up the river and wouldn't even be visible from it. Ridiculous and unfair decision which will cost human life

If our ancestors who built these structures could see the way we are constantly impeding progress and improvement for the sake of a few old stones, they would laugh at us

micropig

boynesider wrote: »

This bypass would have no impact on Newgrange. It would be a few miles up the river and wouldn't even be visible from it. Ridiculous and unfair decision which will cost human life

If our ancestors who built these structures could see the way we are constantly impeding progress and improvement for the sake of a few old stones, they would laugh at us

All the protesting against the M3 and it still went ahead, this has more to do with them loosing revenue off the toll bridge and not much to do with protecting heritage. I don't know how many more lives the bridge at Slane will have to take before something is done, (I hope none)


If only there was a way we could channel the traffic from the Tolled M1 to the Tolled M3;)

44leto

boynesider wrote: »

This bypass would have no impact on Newgrange. It would be a few miles up the river and wouldn't even be visible from it. Ridiculous and unfair decision which will cost human life

If our ancestors who built these structures could see the way we are constantly impeding progress and improvement for the sake of a few old stones, they would laugh at us

I wouldn't agree with you there it is a unesco heritage site, it is important, although it is on Irish soil it is still a world heritage site, it is our responsibility to care and preserve it. I think an alternative route is possible.

The site is not just the chamber, the archeology site is all around the chamber for miles.

bleg

Dead right. Newgrange is amazing.

Biggins

44leto wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you there it is a unesco heritage site, it is important, although it is on Irish soil it is still a world heritage site, it is our responsibility to care and preserve it. I think an alternative route is possible.

The site is not just the chamber, the archeology site is all around the chamber for miles.

Correct, there is Knowth, Dowth and their many miles of ancient underground tunnels (a further educated "Boynesider" should know this!) as well Tara and that site too which has yet to be full excavated.

I'm from Louth and also a "Boynesider", have been to the sites many times and has explored some of the tunnels.
It would be a national crime in regards to Irish history and our heritage - what helps to make us Irish and thus more special, if these works went ahead where they did.
There was alternative routes for the motorway but the then government (FF) for their own reasons (suspicious!) decided, no, we are just looking at this direction and refused to further entertain alternative routes.

...And whats with the "Treehugging" slur - get your facts right OP.
This has got nothing to do with trees!

micropig

Another Boards Thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055806967

The road was planned to be 500m away from the buffer zone of Newgrange (There is a map of the buffer zone 3rd post in thread

22 lives have already been lost at Slane and 1600 HGVs pass through there every day......

Google map of directions from slane to newgrange


Map of proposed (refused) route

The bridge is falling apart and not fit for purpose

Mikros

micropig wrote: »

22 lives have already been lost at Slane and 1600 HGVs pass through there every day......

Quoting a figure of 22 deaths going back to the 1980's is disingenuous in my opinion, there is hardly a stretch of national road in the country that wont give a similar figure over 30 years. This seems to be main argument made for a by-pass.

I know it's a less than ideal road and all, but in fairness the last fatal accident in Slane according to that link was in 2001 - over 10 years ago. After that accident there was a lot of work done on the approach road to the bridge and since then the situation has improved a lot. I think the last decade is a bit more relevant when making an argument for building a by-pass close to a UNESCO site.

skregs

micropig wrote: »

22 lives have already been lost at Slane

Was that the year the Rolling Stones were playing it?

micropig

Mikros wrote: »

Quoting a figure of 22 deaths going back to the 1980's is disingenuous in my opinion, there is hardly a stretch of national road in the country that wont give a similar figure over 30 years. This seems to be main argument made for a by-pass.

I know it's a less than ideal road and all, but in fairness the last fatal accident in Slane according to that link was in 2001 - over 10 years ago. After that accident there was a lot of work done on the approach road to the bridge and since then the situation has improved a lot. I think the last decade is a bit more relevant when making an argument for building a by-pass close to a UNESCO site.

ok if those people lives aren';t sufficient for you:rolleyes:, there has been many near fatal crashes here's one from 2009

Meath Chroinicale report 2011 about accidents at slane


Don't kid yourself this is about saving the heritage, I was on the Tara protest, The route they will approve will probably be nearer to Newgrange :rolleyes:

Biggins

The fact is that Slane does need a major road around it.
Slane is a classic small village. 3/4 pubs, a single church on the left-hand side after going through the crossroad, there is the old mill/factor beside the old bridge (which really is not made for the huge trucks of today!), there is the ancient sites (all within short distance of each other, in some cases interconnected by tunnels.) a couple of small businesses including a credit union (right-hand side thats just been build in the last few years for the community as you drive down and in - across from a pub, the "Wishing Well" at one stage), a couple of small family restaurants and a single major hotel also near the church.
The huge trucks hauling through it did/do no good service to Slane and the now old area that still somehow manages to remain.

A motorway is needed to bypass the area but its should have been planned and positioned better, thats all.

Rented Mule

micropig wrote: »

ok if those people lives aren';t sufficient for you:rolleyes:, there has been many near fatal crashes here's one from 2009

In fairness, I don't think that this is what Mikros is saying. You'll probably find if you compare any other road over a 30+ years time frame that you would probably find similar statistics.

I'll go one step further to say that there is no guarantee that the number of fatal crashes will go down. If anything, at higher speed, you could possibly see an increase in deaths along the bypass.

Biggins

Just be way of explanation about the old bridge.
On either connecting side, its small hills (one of which Slane resides on).
So driving down to the bridge (either direction), its very easy to by even accident, by kinetic energy, build up speed.
Add to that the roads connecting to the bridge as they dip deep down to it, are VERY bendy and at places are absolute blind spots, leaving less than a half second to react (if that).
...Even worse at night!

micropig

Biggins wrote: »

Just be way of explanation about the old bridge.
On either connecting side, its small hills (one of which Slane resides on).
So driving down to the bridge (either direction), its very easy to by even accident, by kinetic energy, build up speed.
Add to that the roads connecting to the bridge as they dip deep down to it, are VERY bendy and at places are absolute blind spots, leaving less than a half second to react (if that).
...Even worse at night!

+ by the time a truck gets to the bottom of the hill, they have no/very little air left in their brakes to stop, one wrong move.....

Irish Steve

micropig wrote: »

+ by the time a truck gets to the bottom of the hill, they have no/very little air left in their brakes to stop, one wrong move.....

Very very rare for a truck to have problems with not enough air. Much more common, and easy to do, is over heated brakes that then fade and don't work effectively, and that can happen simply because the driver hasn't slowed early enough to get the speed down before reaching the hill, particularly when coming from the north.

It's a long steep hill that can catch someone out very easily if they don't know the area, and regrettably, there are a lot of trucks that come off the N1 at the Collon exit, come down through Slane and then take the Ratoath road off the N2, and go via Dunboyne and Maynooth to the N/M7, as that avoids the M1 toll and the M50 toll, which over time add up to a significant overhead. Banning them is unlikely to work, as for a ban to work, there has to be effective enforcement, and there's next to no enforcement now of things like no HGV's in the right hand lane of Motorways, let alone things like bans on a specific road. Can't be done with width restrictions, as there will still be trucks that have to get into the Slane area, as well as buses and coaches. IF there were no tolls on the motorways, then people might use them instead of using the roads that they were supposed to replace, but that won't happen in my lifetime, so we will continue to see fatal accidents at places like Slane, among others, because the road is being overused as a direct result of bad policy.

It will be interesting to see what the NRA, and Meath CC come up with now,

starch4ser

I recently saw one of these tree huggers wearing a tshirt with "liberate animals" printed on it. Honestly not sure what it means. Give them the right to vote? Allow them to take up paid employment?

micropig

starch4ser wrote: »

I recently saw one of these tree huggers wearing a tshirt with "liberate animals" printed on it. Honestly not sure what it means. Give them the right to vote? Allow them to take up paid employment?

We already have, mostly in the public sector:p:D

Show Time

Best way to fix the tree huggers is with a few water cannons.

irishgeo

my point is that tourists visiting newgrange as he suggested is not going to help fix the economy.

Biggins

irishgeo wrote: »

my point is that tourists visiting newgrange as he suggested is not going to help fix the economy.

On its own, maybe not but besides the money it pulls in direct at the site itself, those visiting spend additional money in food, drink and places to stay - and every little bit helps - so yes, its does help to fix the economy.

micropig

irishgeo wrote: »

my point is that tourists visiting newgrange as he suggested is not going to help fix the economy.

Raise the entry fee to €100,000?:D


Newgrange is only part of what is in the area, knowth, dowth, mellifont, townely hall, whole boyne valley region, battle of the boyne to name but a few sites

forfuxsake

micropig wrote: »

Raise the entry fee to €100,000?:D

and tell everybody that they have to buy tickets now because the price will go up next year and if they don't act quickly they may never get on the tickets to Newgrange ladder.

micropig

forfuxsake wrote: »

and tell everybody that they have to buy tickets now because the price will go up next year and if they don't act quickly they may never get on the tickets to Newgrange ladder.

Sounds like a plan.

To see the sunrise

Take away the tolls on the nearby motorways and most of the traffic would vanish! POOF!!!

Problem solved.

44leto

Deleted User wrote: »

Take away the tolls on the nearby motorways and most of the traffic would vanish! POOF!!!

Problem solved.

LOL
So true, maybe that was the alternative bord Pheanala were on about.

flutered

when one takes into concideration that the planners have built a motorway from the border above drogheda to tralee without a rest stop one can expect anything.

Pete M.

boynesider wrote: »

If our ancestors who built these structures could see the way we are constantly impeding progress and improvement for the sake of a few old stones, they would laugh at us

LOL

If our ancestors could see us now, they would be terrified and regard us as Gods. Really dumbass, arrogant, greedy, shortsighted, mean, cruel, ignorant and shallow Gods, then they'd laugh at us for being so stupid.

boynesider

Biggins wrote: »

Correct, there is Knowth, Dowth and their many miles of ancient underground tunnels (a further educated "Boynesider" should know this!) as well Tara and that site too which has yet to be full excavated.

I'm from Louth and also a "Boynesider", have been to the sites many times and has explored some of the tunnels.
It would be a national crime in regards to Irish history and our heritage - what helps to make us Irish and thus more special, if these works went ahead where they did.
There was alternative routes for the motorway but the then government (FF) for their own reasons (suspicious!) decided, no, we are just looking at this direction and refused to further entertain alternative routes.

...And whats with the "Treehugging" slur - get your facts right OP.
This has got nothing to do with trees!

This is pure hyperbole. A "national crime" if the state goes ahead with a relatively minor engineering project in order to save life and also vastly improve the daily lives of people in a beautiful, historic village which hundreds of people call home? Come on lad

And maybe you are unfamiliar with the geography of the area but I don't see how anyone can argue that it will have a negative impact on our nations heritage. This is not a motorway extending for miles. It is a bridge across what is in places a very steep valley at a point which is outside the Bru na Boinne buffer zone and which is unlikely to contain any significant archaeology. If there was anything worth stopping such a vital piece of infrastructure for, it would almost certainly have been found by now given its location. (I'd say if they're lucky they might find a few fulacht fiadh)

And what alternative routes were there? You could either go to the east of the village or to the west of the village, and it wouldn't take a genius to work out that a Western bypass would be completely impractical.

Bad decision based on flawed logic, and most people in Meath think so too.

Biggins

boynesider wrote: »

This is pure hyperbole. A "national crime" if the state goes ahead with a relatively minor engineering project in order to save life and also vastly improve the daily lives of people in a beautiful, historic village which hundreds of people call home? Come on lad

And maybe you are unfamiliar with the geography of the area but I don't see how anyone can argue that it will have a negative impact on our nations heritage...

Are you for real?
As another poster listed them, besides Newgrange...

...nowth, dowth, mellifont, townely hall, whole boyne valley region, battle of the boyne to name but a few sites

So many areas on historic importance to our national history, so many that are compacted to within miles of each other - but fcuk that - lets dig up the area and drive a shaggin' big motorway through part of it in the process!
Get real!

I want to be able some day to be able to tell my kids what helps to make us Irish and pint towards our historic stites and say this was us in the past.
Not say "well this was us but we planted thousands of tones of cement and tar on top of it! Now this is us and here is your heritage children, motorways and pollution right on our history - and right on our near doorstep!"

boynesider wrote: »

...It is a bridge across what is in places a very steep valley at a point which is outside the Bru na Boinne buffer zone and which is unlikely to contain any significant archaeology.

Absolute bollox!
You REALLY need to go bone up on your studies and know what the hell your talking about!
Currently they are working on the nature of the Late Neolithic and Beaker activity at Newgrange.
...But then if you knew what the hell your talking about - you would know this!
Here - get an education: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/search-on-for-a-second-passage-in-newgrange-2908492.html
Looks like you need it!

AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY is being carried out at Newgrange in order to establish whether any hidden passageways or chambers exist at the site.
A survey team of Irish and Slovakian archaeologists will employ some techniques never before used at archaeological sites in Ireland.
One such method, the microgravity survey technique, has already been used “very successfully” at the pyramids in Egypt to identify the locations of passages and chambers, according to the project organisers.

http://www.thejournal.ie/hidden-chambers-may-exist-in-newgrange-256696-Oct2011/

There may still be another passage there - this was not a full survey of the entire mound. We were able to demonstrate that the technology works and that there is a value in considering a more comprehensive survey of Newgrange and other mounds. When that might happen is anyone's guess given the state of the economy.

http://www.newgrange.com/news72.htm

boynesider wrote: »

If there was anything worth stopping such a vital piece of infrastructure for, it would almost certainly have been found by now given its location. (I'd say if they're lucky they might find a few fulacht fiadh)

...Once again proving how little you know about this specialised field - in the fields around there!

boynesider wrote: »

And what alternative routes were there? You could either go to the east of the village or to the west of the village...

Well done in working that out at least!

boynesider wrote: »

...and it wouldn't take a genius to work out that a Western bypass would be completely impractical.

Really?
Please educate us with your expert knowledge and provable facts!

boynesider wrote: »

Bad decision based on flawed logic, and most people in Meath think so too.

I see - so with all this expert knowledge you have displayed so far - your now able and qualified to speak for the whole of Meath?
Right!
Excuse me while I laugh!

P.S.
I'm too VERY - VERY familiar with the area.
I've lived there for decades and still do not far away in the same county!
Go figure!

bleg

Anybody who hasn't been to Newgrange really should go. It's amazing. You'll change your opinion quick enough.

boynesider

Biggins wrote: »

Are you for real?
As another poster listed them, besides Newgrange...



So many areas on historic importance to our national history, so many that are compacted to within miles of each other - but fcuk that - lets dig up the area and drive a shaggin' big motorway through part of it in the process!
Get real!

I want to be able some day to be able to tell my kids what helps to make us Irish and pint towards our historic stites and say this was us in the past.
Not say "well this was us but we planted thousands of tones of cement and tar on top of it! Now this is us and here is your heritage children, motorways and pollution right on our history - and right on our near doorstep!"


Absolute bollox!
You REALLY need to go bone up on your studies and know what the hell your talking about!
They are still finding stuff - even right now - at the back of Newgrange alone!
Currently they are working on the nature of the Late Neolithic and Beaker activity at Newgrange.
...But then if you knew what the hell your talking about - you would know this!
Here - get an education: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/search-on-for-a-second-passage-in-newgrange-2908492.html
Looks like you need it!


...Once again proving how little you know about this specialised field - in the fields around there!


Well done in working that out at least!


Really?
Please educate us with your expert knowledge and provable facts!


I see - so with all this expert knowledge you have displayed so far - your now able and qualified to speak for the whole of Meath?
Right!
Excuse me while I laugh!

Jaysus, you're a bit mad!

Seriously though, your post is once again filled with hyperbole and imprecise generalizations.

"well this was us but we planted thousands of tones of cement and tar on top of it! Now this is us and here is your heritage children, motorways and pollution right on our history".

Deal in logic please. The way you are going on you would give someone the impression that the bypass is going straight across one of the wonderful sites which you have listed above but this is a complete falsehood.

The bypass will be miles away from each and every one of them. In fact it's not even encroaching on the buffer zone around Bru na Boinne. Why are you deliberately trying to misrepresent this fact?

ps. And go easy on the personal insults. It's never worth it

Biggins

boynesider wrote: »

Seriously though, your post is once again filled with hyperbole and imprecise generalizations.

Those 'generalisations' - but 'knowledge' to others, comes from ascertained facts and items found.
Whats more - I provided links to some material.
Imagine that!

boynesider wrote: »

..."well this was us but we planted thousands of tones of cement and tar on top of it! Now this is us and here is your heritage children, motorways and pollution right on our history".

Deal in logic please. The way you are going on you would give someone the impression that the bypass is going straight across one of the wonderful sites which you have listed above but this is a complete falsehood.

No, what you have been told by solicitors in power, calling themselves 'politicians' is that what you have swallowed!
You have looked at the geographical map I can assume.
Now if you know the actual area and stand out there, given the compact precise nature of whats out there and whats they wanted to drive through part of it, you (if one had any sight) would see just the precise way it would go through it in reality - not just on a god damn map where scale, its actual contours and real perception are non-comparable!
I DO assume you have been out there!

boynesider wrote: »

The bypass will be miles away from each and every one of them. In fact it's not even encroaching on the buffer zone around Bru na Boinne. Why are you deliberately trying to misrepresent this fact?

The area of Newgrange - O' and look at another previous posts I had! - I mentioned others areas too, are in that area - including a place I already mentioned, Tara where its actually going by - did you see that too or are you contently bypassing that post?
Now unless Tara alone has suddenly upped and moved to Kerry - I still think its still out there and right in the area where as yet, there IS things to be found by all professional accounts and/or things to be learned by other methods!

Originally Posted by boynesider
...and it wouldn't take a genius to work out that a Western bypass would be completely impractical.

We are still awaiting your professional informative explanation on the above statement.

You still haven't explained what qualifies you to speak for the whole of Meath?
How do you get to say (your words)

Bad decision based on flawed logic, and most people in Meath think so too.

???

I personally have spoken to Meath people and while there is a balance that sees both sides, I do not state that most people see and agree on one side!
I'm not that cocky!
So what qualifies you to speak for the whole of Meath?
...And please, please back your stuff up.
If your going to try post opinion as fact, back your stuff up with verifiable links at the very least!

Slane Resident

Biggins wrote: »

No, what you have been told by solicitors in power, calling themselves 'politicians' is that what you have swallowed!
You have looked at the geographical map I can assume.
Now if you know the actual area and stand out there, given the compact precise nature of whats out there and whats they wanted to drive through part of it, you (if one had any sight) would see just the precise way it would go through it in reality - not just on a god damn map where scale, its actual contours and real perception are non-comparable!
I DO assume you have been out there!


The area of Newgrange - O' and look at another previous posts I had! - I mentioned others areas too, are in that area - including a place I already mentioned, Tara where its actually going by - did you see that too or are you contently bypassing that post?
Now unless Tara alone has suddenly upped and moved to Kerry - I still think its still out there and right in the area where as yet, there IS things to be found by all professional accounts and/or things to be learned by other methods!

We are still awaiting your professional informative explanation on the above statement.

You still haven't explained what qualifies you to speak for the whole of Meath?
How do you get to say (your words)

I personally have spoken to Meath people and while there is a balance that sees both sides, I do not state that most people see and agree on one side!
I'm not that cocky!
So what qualifies you to speak for the whole of Meath?
...And please, please back your stuff up.
If your going to try post opinion as fact, back your stuff up with verifiable links at the very least!

Biggins, I may not speak for the people of Meath but I can say that the majority, in face the vast majority with only a couple of exceptions, of people in Slane support the bypass.

It might also interest you to note that after a month of hearing An Bord Pleanala's own inspector found that:

There would be no impact on flora or fauna.
The road would not adversely affect Newgrange.
It will not impact on areas of archaeological significance, although there is one post WWII pillar box which may be adversely affected.
It will impact a little on Knowth in that it will be visible from the top in the far distance (and yes, I was at the top of Knowth and Newgrange for the balloon tests) but "the bridge, which would be simple in form, would be quite distant from Knowth and would appear as a compatible feature in a river valley landscape"
Removing the tolls from the M1 won't have a significant effect on safety.
The situation in Slane is untenable and doing nothing is not an option.
A HGV ban will have an adverse effect on local businesses and more importantly just move the problem on as the 1600 lorry movements will just transfer to smaller rural roads and Stackallen Bridge which is even narrower.

All of this can be found here

http://www.pleanala.ie/HA0026/HA0026.htm

Slane Resident

Here's the view from Knowth. Play spot the balloon.





Here's one with arrows marking where the balloons are. This will have the same visibility as the bridge.

micropig

View after they build the road
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRijHzcNUIun6exsF5HIHv1CWUsV-qnrWMWRCRcl4q5vgPw9WEnYw

Artists impression

micropig

micropig wrote: »

View after they build the road
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRijHzcNUIun6exsF5HIHv1CWUsV-qnrWMWRCRcl4q5vgPw9WEnYw

Artists impression

A secured image.

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

A secured image.

I don't know what that means, I'm not a geek...Can you see it or not?:p

GoldDustWoman

I agree that Newgrange should be protected but I think the idea that it'll play a key role in our recovery is incredibly stupid.

I don't see why it's economic value should matter though, it's a historical site and should be preserved on those grounds.

micropig

micropig wrote: »

I don't know what that means, I'm not a geek...Can you see it or not?:p

Yes I can see it, it is encrypted in a similar way to your on-line banking web pages. That's why the

Sonnenblumen

This whole controvery (not allowing a bypass) is another Tara case and once again the immediate consequence is that people's lives are unnecessarily put at risk.:(

micropig

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I can see it, it is encrypted in a similar way to your on-line banking web pages. That's why the

That's because its classified information;):D