TriAthy 2nd/3rd June

peter kern

peter kern wrote: »

and I think every nat series race should be required to do so
and if its not about performance it should not be a Nat series race maybe.

But for me Nat series race in a way means performance race not fun race.

dosnt happen often tummy has nothing to say .I take it that you agree with it ;-)

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

So what, have a field of 10 to 15 competing in NS races and all the rest can go find somewhere else to play?
I disagree with your comment "But for me Nat series race in a way means performance race not fun race" but thats probably because i am not at the pointy end of things!!

DaveR1

Holly Ambitious Talc wrote: »

"But for me Nat series race in a way means performance race not fun race"

Just a quick note on the "race" aspect.
At the top end of the field it should be a race but it is not, it is a timetrial for some while a race for others (depending on the strength of your wave).... And as far as I am concerned not exactly fair. I finished 10 seconds behind Jenson Button, and there was another competitor between us. A bit sickening consierig the fact I never saw either of them.
I think wave 1 should have the top 100 males, wave 2 the top 100 females. This way it is a race and first across the line wins. It is not fair the way it is. You get a good draft in the swim. Have strong bikers with you, some1 to aim for on the run.... You go faster in a race situation.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

With the organisation I have to disagree a bit, I have to say that I think the race was better than than previously. Overall there was more space on the bike course and less drafting, and the swim was as always really good less and there was enough water this year on the run

For health and safety reason they should be a carpet at the swim exit pontoon as the wood got quite slippery.

Why we cant have both? If people dont ask for it they wont get it . At the end of the day Athy is a race for profit ( and there is nothing wrong with that as a race like that so big can not be organized purely on a voluntary basis. If many people will ask for a prize money that reflects the size of the field, than I am sure Athy will do whats best for the business. And athletes that get good prize money should then promote the race in return so it could be a win win situation as I believe Athy did not sell out this year.

Perhaps giving mroe prize money to athletes may attract athletes. But giving prize money to athletes should not come at the expense of the organisation of the event like Harry Potters mate would do.

Do I want Elite athletes to be able to make more money? Yes. Am I willing to pay more to subside is? Probably not.

tunney

DaveR1 wrote: »

Just a quick note on the "race" aspect.
At the top end of the field it should be a race but it is not, it is a timetrial for some while a race for others (depending on the strength of your wave).... And as far as I am concerned not exactly fair. I finished 10 seconds behind Jenson Button, and there was another competitor between us. A bit sickening consierig the fact I never saw either of them.
I think wave 1 should have the top 100 males, wave 2 the top 100 females. This way it is a race and first across the line wins. It is not fair the way it is. You get a good draft in the swim. Have strong bikers with you, some1 to aim for on the run.... You go faster in a race situation.

okay so waves are done based on top 100, few things:

1) How do you determine the top 100?
2) Top 100 are all going to swim and bike at similar standards. Translation : one big draft fest. "Have strong bikers with you"??? Sounds like condoning drafting.

Man the fvck up and hurt yourself.

longshank

peter kern wrote: »

With the organisation I have to disagree a bit, I have to say that I think the race was better than than previously. Overall there was more space on the bike course and less drafting, and the swim was as always really good less and there was enough water this year on the run

For health and safety reason they should be a carpet at the swim exit pontoon as the wood got quite slippery.

Why we cant have both? If people dont ask for it they wont get it . At the end of the day Athy is a race for profit ( and there is nothing wrong with that as a race like that so big can not be organized purely on a voluntary basis. If many people will ask for a prize money that reflects the size of the field, than I am sure Athy will do whats best for the business. And athletes that get good prize money should then promote the race in return so it could be a win win situation as I believe Athy did not sell out this year.

I agree the course is better although the run is still a bit too cross country! I was thinking more in terms of the race as an event, it just seems to be loosing something.

DaveR1

tunney wrote: »

2) Top 100 are all going to swim and bike at similar standards. Translation : one big draft fest. "Have strong bikers with you"??? Sounds like condoning drafting.

Is it a race or not?????
The way it is now some people get to race, others don't. Why isn't there this "big draft fest" in every other race in the country???

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

and I think every nat series race should be required to do so
and if its not about performance it should not be a Nat series race maybe.

But for me Nat series race in a way means performance race not fun race.

I can see your point. However I can see the opposing point too.

The NS is important to Mr Chunky Monkey and Ms Lardy Lassie, it encourages them to participate more and get involved.

The issue comes down to the definition of "performance race". Chunky and Lardy are still laying it all out there. Its just that they are slow as can be and may not meet all definitions of performance.

As for prize money for AG racing. I liked it when I won it, but I also accept the point "want prize money? race elite"

longshank

tunney wrote: »

Perhaps giving mroe prize money to athletes may attract athletes. But giving prize money to athletes should not come at the expense of the organisation of the event like Harry Potters mate would do.

Do I want Elite athletes to be able to make more money? Yes. Am I willing to pay more to subside is? Probably not.

It doesn't have to cost more per entry, - more prize money = more big name athletes= more prestige = more competitiors(maybe:p)

tunney

longshank wrote: »

It doesn't have to cost more per entry, - more prize money = more big name athletes= more prestige = more competitiors(maybe:p)

Can the course take more athletes?

shotgunmcos

DaveR1 wrote: »

Is it a race or not?????
The way it is now some people get to race, others don't. Why isn't there this "big draft fest" in every other race in the country???

It is a race but the problem with this is back to the only point I made on this thread so far. Greed. Having the Biggest, in term of numbers, event in the country does not exactly make it the best race. Hosting a sprint or Olympic race in a tiny town with 1000+ participants on a narrow river can only mean waves and the least hassle way of doing it would be as is, by AG. Trying to subjectively pick a top 100 for a wave is going to lead to a situation where you would have to hire an admin staff just to deal with appeals, complaints etc....

I won't return to Athy because I just feel its trying to be too big, do too much and the 2 times I've done the race I felt the experience was somewhat diluted. Perhaps cap the numbers (and cost) a little lower and you might get more out of it.

I'd imagine if Kilkee opened its entry to 1000 it would fill up but again it would dilute the event IMO and the bike course would just get busier, henc more drafting* etc...

RE: dafting: There was a fair amount of it going on in Kilkee last summer. Not just in the pack where groups cycling uphill and into a stiff wind couldn't break up. I observed drafting from the top 15 too. Drafting is prevalent in all races.

I don't buy into the fast times of the Olympic bike course either as I believe the multiple wave aspect in a small town is a catalyst for a draftfeast. Sure you are just catching the next wave and passing 50-100 odd people you are constantly in someones draft zone and getting sucked along. Some one correct me if I'm wrong there?!

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

It is a race but the problem with this is back to the only point I made on this thread so far. Greed. Having the Biggest, in term of numbers, event in the country does not exactly make it the best race. Hosting a sprint or Olympic race in a tiny town with 1000+ participants on a narrow river can only mean waves and the least hassle way of doing it would be as is, by AG. Trying to subjectively pick a top 100 for a wave is going to lead to a situation where you would have to hire an admin staff just to deal with appeals, complaints etc....

I won't return to Athy because I just feel its trying to be too big, do too much and the 2 times I've done the race I felt the experience was somewhat diluted. Perhaps cap the numbers (and cost) a little lower and you might get more out of it.

I'd imagine if Kilkee opened its entry to 1000 it would fill up but again it would dilute the event IMO and the bike course would just get busier, henc more drafting* etc...

RE: dafting: There was a fair amount of it going on in Kilkee last summer. Not just in the pack where groups cycling uphill and into a stiff wind couldn't break up. I observed drafting from the top 15 too. Drafting is prevalent in all races.

I don't buy into the fast times of the Olympic bike course either as I believe the multiple wave aspect in a small town is a catalyst for a draftfeast. Sure you are just catching the next wave and passing 50-100 odd people you are constantly in someones draft zone and getting sucked along. Some one correct me if I'm wrong there?!

Most races are draft fests, its frustrating. Officials don't enforce it and the rules are too soft anyways.

Athy seemed to roll fast. Surfaces was nice enough for most of it. I got 36kph for 225 watts legitimately. I had mostly clear roads too.

shotgunmcos

tunney wrote: »

.
Athy seemed to roll fast. Surfaces was nice enough for most of it. I got 36kph for 225 watts legitimately. I had mostly clear roads too.

Likewise. I'd imagine having a constant stream of bikes to chase down and overtake would add a click to that avg kph

peter kern

i dodnt think anybody has the answer for that one
more waves less chance of drafting
all people in one go you see the competitors but there is not enough draft marshales out there, so then people will say this guy had a pack to work of .
i think in this case one have to accept it works sometimes for one person sometimes for the other person,
and while I prefer mass starts, I think there was less drafting with the waves and a race like athy can not operate in another way ( the female race yes the male race now )

DaveR1 wrote: »

Just a quick note on the "race" aspect.
At the top end of the field it should be a race but it is not, it is a timetrial for some while a race for others (depending on the strength of your wave).... And as far as I am concerned not exactly fair. I finished 10 seconds behind Jenson Button, and there was another competitor between us. A bit sickening consierig the fact I never saw either of them.
I think wave 1 should have the top 100 males, wave 2 the top 100 females. This way it is a race and first across the line wins. It is not fair the way it is. You get a good draft in the swim. Have strong bikers with you, some1 to aim for on the run.... You go faster in a race situation.

longshank

tunney wrote: »

Can the course take more athletes?

fair point - less profit then!

peter kern

Holly Ambitious Talc wrote: »

So what, have a field of 10 to 15 competing in NS races and all the rest can go find somewhere else to play?
I disagree with your comment "But for me Nat series race in a way means performance race not fun race" but thats probably because i am not at the pointy end of things!!

I did not say that, I said that at nat series races the focus should be a bit more on performance , at non nat series race the focus more on fun , in reply to daves post its not all about elites ( and its defo not all about elites)

in Itu there is world series world cup continetal cup
and there should be a be a few races in Ireland that have good prize money
and if should be the big ones that generate the most revenue.

and I agree athy was a fantastic race for the first 2 years and then it lost something

Holly Ambitious Talc do you follow Irish athletes on the international scene ?

JohnM77

peter kern wrote: »

and I agree athy was a fantastic race for the first 2 years and then it lost something
?

Personally I think Athy is a better and more enjoyable race now than it was in the first couple of years - I have done it every year since it began.

1. I think it is better organised now that it was initially.

2. The swim course is better than the initial course which was nearly all downstream bar the last 300m.

3. The bike course for the Olympic is better now in my opnion. The old out and back course twice was boring and this led to the biggest ever draftfest I have seen at any race anywhere. There used to be groups of 20-30 cyclists ploughing up and down the road and it was impossible to marshall.

4. The run course is still not ideal as it is way too narrow for the volume of people running on the river bank but in the first few years you had to traverse a section which was covered in some plastic sheeting and was like running in a bouncy castle and was a recipe for a broken ankle.

In fairness to the organisers they have tried to improve the race year on year. We all know that this race is a business aimed at making money but I think they do try to put on a good race for people, create a good atmosphere, take on board feedback and the majority of people go home happy which is the main thing really. If people did not enjoy this race they wouldn't sign up in such numbers.

I agree with DaveR1 though and I think the race would benefit from one wave containing the top 100 or so athletes. How this is can be done I don't know but it would definitely add to the event.

couerdelion

tunney wrote: »

Most races are draft fests, its frustrating. Officials don't enforce it and the rules are too soft anyways.

I agree that a lot of drafting goes on (and that's from my limited racing) although when you are racing it can look worse that what it actually is as what looks like drafting from 50m behind could actually be a legal line of bikes with the required 10m draft zone.

The TI do take drafting seriously hence the motorbike marshall courses and the MM's are taught how to enforce the drafting zone rules and impose penalties. Whether or not they enforce and give penalties as much as they should I don't know. Should there be more MM's at the races? I think so.

d4r3n

JohnM77 wrote: »

I agree with DaveR1 though and I think the race would benefit from one wave containing the top 100 or so athletes. How this is can be done I don't know but it would definitely add to the event.

They should make a prize money wave, have all the top male/females in it and do away with AG prizes.

It'll

1) attract names so people can see top people in action, and compare their respective times (from their own waves) from the same course/days as the elites
2) keep the people who want to be in a top 100 wave happy "Now lets see how you compare lads"

peter kern

when I said it lost something I mean it was 1 year the best no drafting field Ireland had ever seen, it was the first non drafting race with an international flair, it could have become a race like Windsor.
winner in windsor gets 3000 euro.

JohnM77 wrote: »

Personally I think Athy is a better and more enjoyable race now than it was in the first couple of years - I have done it every year since it began.

1. I think it is better organised now that it was initially.

2. The swim course is better than the initial course which was nearly all downstream bar the last 300m.

3. The bike course for the Olympic is better now in my opnion. The old out and back course twice was boring and this led to the biggest ever draftfest I have seen at any race anywhere. There used to be groups of 20-30 cyclists ploughing up and down the road and it was impossible to marshall.

4. The run course is still not ideal as it is way too narrow for the volume of people running on the river bank but in the first few years you had to traverse a section which was covered in some plastic sheeting and was like running in a bouncy castle and was a recipe for a broken ankle.

In fairness to the organisers they have tried to improve the race year on year. We all know that this race is a business aimed at making money but I think they do try to put on a good race for people, create a good atmosphere, take on board feedback and the majority of people go home happy which is the main thing really. If people did not enjoy this race they wouldn't sign up in such numbers.

I agree with DaveR1 though and I think the race would benefit from one wave containing the top 100 or so athletes. How this is can be done I don't know but it would definitely add to the event.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

when I said it lost something I mean it was 1 year the best no drafting field Ireland had ever seen, it was the first non drafting race with an international flair, it could have become a race like Windsor.
winner in windsor gets 3000 euro.

but it was a sh1t dangerous race for the AGers that year too no?............

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

but it was a sh1t dangerous race for the AGers that year too no?............

that was during a time when you must have been part of TI and TI sanctioned it, or not ;-)
And Windsor is a pretty save race.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

that was during a time when you must have been part of TI and TI sanctioned it, or not ;-)
And Windsor is a pretty save race.

After my time.

Never commented on Windsor know nothing about it.

peter kern

Windsor gets televised for 1 hour on bbc and attracts an title sponsor that pays more than the price money.
being televised keeps the race the number 1 race in the UK. and most likely one of the most profitible in europe.
So its a win win situation.

Daz1214

does anyone know why TI havent updated the NS points from athy?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

peter kern wrote: »

jackyback do you follow Irish athletes on the international scene ?

Specific to tri? more and more as time goes on.

Bambaata

Daz1214 wrote: »

does anyone know why TI havent updated the NS points from athy?

id guess its due to the sheer amount on the results and ensuring the results are 100%

elvis jones

Bambaata wrote: »

id guess its due to the sheer amount on the results and ensuring the results are 100%

Maybe they are still wandering around the square looking for evil killer plastic bags;)

Triathlon Ireland

Daz1214 wrote: »

does anyone know why TI havent updated the NS points from athy?

We expect to have the NS rankings updated over the next few days. Just waiting on finalised rankings... it's a little slow due to sheer number of competitors and some alternations needed. Thanks for the patience!

Daz1214

good stuff, thank you