Any tips for ewes that wont open

iron man

just started lambing and already i have a couple of ewes that wouldnt open up. they would be lambing a couple of hours, , pressing a bit not making much headway. then you would put the hand in a find the Lock..... so after some lubrication and wiggling your getting nowhere. Off to the vets €€€€€ injections no good. section done.... all home and then she dies... Vet warned me about infection... its 50/50... Is there any remedy out there can can be used, applied or thought of that can make her open at home......

one farmer friend reckons i should inject with calcium??

Dont think thats right..

Any Suggetions????

thanks

snowman707

ring womb ? we give 5 cc of oxytocin

usually would only get a couple of cases a year

a good pre lambing mineral might help, we used life line in the past, but we switched to boluses a couple of years ago

maybe get a couple of blood samples analysed

iron man

thanks

all ewes are regulary dosed with minerals..... the dear stuff (liquithrive) and they have mineral buckets in the pen....Its just so hard to find that ring and get your finger in

razor8

are these ewes or ewe lambs?

oxytocin usually does the trick

Username John

iron man wrote: »

just started lambing and already i have a couple of ewes that wouldnt open up. they would be lambing a couple of hours, , pressing a bit not making much headway. then you would put the hand in a find the Lock..... so after some lubrication and wiggling your getting nowhere. Off to the vets €€€€€ injections no good. section done.... all home and then she dies... Vet warned me about infection... its 50/50... Is there any remedy out there can can be used, applied or thought of that can make her open at home......

one farmer friend reckons i should inject with calcium??

Dont think thats right..

Any Suggetions????

thanks

I had a few cases like this, this year - for the first time. No idea why - had to get the vet for each - he had no idea either...
I put it down to minerals - this year was the first year I used bolus, and not lifeline buckets... doesn't seem to be the case for you though...

All the ones that started lambing like this for us, were all premature, around 3 - 4 weeks. Most of the lambs died...
None of the sheep that had sections died though, so I would say that 50:50 if they live of die after a section isn't right... in my experience...

Few interesting comments in this thread on BFF

I didn't get blood tests done, as once lambing started (when it was supposed to), I saw no more issues like this - but I think it would be good to see if there is a mineral deficiency. I must / will get bloods done at some stage.

Hope your lambing improves and you see no more of this...

eorna

have the odd case here..pain in the arse...good few of them will open if you GENTLY but surely go around the ring for a while...so from 2 fingers after a while you'll be able to fit 3 and so on as ewe relax....eventually being able to get the lambs out....if you go too hard at her you'll end up doing too much damage and loose ewe and lambs..if she doesn't open c section.

iron man

was chatting to the vet a bit today on the phone.... he injects calcium, oxytocin and 2 other injections.. i can get the first two no prob, but he was reluctant in giving me the other injections... which probably is sound enough as i suppose there are some things that vets cannot give farmers.

you know how it is in the middle of the night... id be trying to get the job done myself and not be hooking up a trailor and head 20 miles to the vet.... and spending €€€€€ depending whos on......

at all times i do try slowly with the one finger.., and it is frustrating..... its no fun. i have to say (with the fluid) there is a point that you find the opening drying up, cannot get ring, hand gets sore, ewe get pissed off and then its time to go to plan B.

Im just wondering are there any farmer home made remedies that are out there.... that works....

LongTail

We've had the same bother on pervious years Iron Man. A real pain in the back side for all concerned! Hopefully this thread can throw up some solutions. Nothing more frustrating than blasting down the road to the vet to throw over a ball of money.

Good thread on BFF John. That’s a great site. I enjoy the photography section. There was a lad who used to post photos from a farm he worked on in Norway. While plant altogether. Couple of farms merged into one. Some setup.

snowman707

one tip about handling/lambing ewes, make your mind in time in time which route you are going,

do not spend ages handling a ewe and then resort to a section, as most likely all you will finish up with is bills from the vet and the knackery

LostCovey

snowman707 wrote: »

ring womb ? we give 5 cc of oxytocin

usually would only get a couple of cases a year

a good pre lambing mineral might help, we used life line in the past, but we switched to boluses a couple of years ago

maybe get a couple of blood samples analysed

Is there any reason why you are using it at up to 5 times the recommended dose rate?

(all info from Irish Medicines Board website)

4.9 Amounts to be administered and administration route
By intramuscular route: Sows and Ewes: 0.2 to 1 ml/animal (2 to 10 IU/animal).

It looks like it could be a risky one to overdose with:

4.10 Overdose (symptoms, emergency procedures, antidotes), if necessary
When oxytocin is administered in excessive dosage, hyperstimulation of the uterus, with strong (hypertonic) and/or prolonged (tetanic) contractions, or an increased uterine tone between the contractions may occur, possibly resulting in uterine rupture, cervical and vaginal lacerations, postpartum haemorrhage, placental separation, impaired uterine blood flow, amniotic fluid embolism and foetal trauma including intracranial haemorrhage. Excessive doses of oxytocin may delay parturition by producing uncoordinated uterine contractions which interfere with the progress of the foetus especially in multiple pregnancies.

LC

snowman707

LostCovey wrote: »

Is there any reason why you are using it at up to 5 times the recommended dose rate?

(all info from Irish Medicines Board website)

4.9 Amounts to be administered and administration route
By intramuscular route: Sows and Ewes: 0.2 to 1 ml/animal (2 to 10 IU/animal).

It looks like it could be a risky one to overdose with:

4.10 Overdose (symptoms, emergency procedures, antidotes), if necessary
When oxytocin is administered in excessive dosage, hyperstimulation of the uterus, with strong (hypertonic) and/or prolonged (tetanic) contractions, or an increased uterine tone between the contractions may occur, possibly resulting in uterine rupture, cervical and vaginal lacerations, postpartum haemorrhage, placental separation, impaired uterine blood flow, amniotic fluid embolism and foetal trauma including intracranial haemorrhage. Excessive doses of oxytocin may delay parturition by producing uncoordinated uterine contractions which interfere with the progress of the foetus especially in multiple pregnancies.

LC

seems like you spend more time on google than you do in the lambing pens

been giving 5 for ring womb and 1 to 2 to aid milk let for over 30 years and never any problems

LostCovey

snowman707 wrote: »

seems like you spend more time on google than you do in the lambing pens

Quite true so far this year Snowman!

snowman707 wrote: »

been giving 5 for ring womb and 1 to 2 to aid milk let for over 30 years and never any problems

"Why?" was the question?

If it's a hormone, you won't get anything extra out of it by overdosing them, it's the same dose for milk let down as for the contraction effects on the womb, and you would get may 5 times more out of a bottle, and no risk of the things described (the side effects that you havn't seen yet).

The instructions also say not to use it in cases of obstruction, but thats a whole other story..................

LC

rancher

LostCovey wrote: »

Quite true so far this year Snowman!



"Why?" was the question?

If it's a hormone, you won't get anything extra out of it by overdosing them, it's the same dose for milk let down as for the contraction effects on the womb, and you would get may 5 times more out of a bottle, and no risk of the things described (the side effects that you havn't seen yet).

The instructions also say not to use it in cases of obstruction, but thats a whole other story..................

LC

Farmers overdosing with antibiotics etc. is the reason that so many drugs are prescription only, seems we're not bothered to read the instructions

LostCovey

rancher wrote: »

Farmers overdosing with antibiotics etc. is the reason that so many drugs are prescription only, seems we're not bothered to read the instructions

I just read this thread again from the start.

I could see why people turn vegetarian.

LC

flatout11

LostCovey wrote: »

Quite true so far this year Snowman!



"Why?" was the question?

If it's a hormone, you won't get anything extra out of it by overdosing them, it's the same dose for milk let down as for the contraction effects on the womb, and you would get may 5 times more out of a bottle, and no risk of the things described (the side effects that you havn't seen yet).

The instructions also say not to use it in cases of obstruction, but thats a whole other story..................

LC

why would you use oxytocin for a ewe with a ringed, when given in larger ammounts it will cause muscle contractions im the uterus however as she didnt dialate fully its a case of push until bust.... rather you than me ...
i wouldnt recommend going down this route

LostCovey

flatout11 wrote: »

why would you use oxytocin for a ewe with a ringed, when given in larger ammounts it will cause muscle contractions im the uterus however as she didnt dialate fully its a case of push until bust.... rather you than me ...
i wouldnt recommend going down this route

I couldn't agree more, but don't mind me. I have got a bit of a reputation here as a zany crank who doesn't think there's a chemical answer to every problem.

I also think its a bit risky to recommend drugs you don't understand for conditions you can't name to people you've never met for animals you have never seen on farms you have never visited, at 5 times the dose recommended by the company who makes the stuff, and for a scenario where they say their drug is contra-indicated.

But that's just me. Eccentric.

LC

jmrc

read somewhere that selenium deficiency was a possible cause? along with genetics?
anyone come across anything to support this?

We had a couple this year, but give then a bit of time and seamed to open. young ewes mainly.

Username John

LostCovey wrote: »

I just read this thread again from the start.

I could see why people turn vegetarian.

LC

I appreciate that you see things from a very black and white perspective LC, and you like to stir things up a bit.

The OP asked for help, and had people any tips. One man replied, based on his experience. You disagreed, as it was against recommended dose - that's fine.
But then why come back with something like the comment above?

eorna wrote: »

have the odd case here..pain in the arse...good few of them will open if you GENTLY but surely go around the ring for a while...so from 2 fingers after a while you'll be able to fit 3 and so on as ewe relax....eventually being able to get the lambs out....if you go too hard at her you'll end up doing too much damage and loose ewe and lambs..if she doesn't open c section.

Yep - I would agree Eorna. My vet told me this year though, that the massaging yer talking about above, can affect fertility. Just said I'd mention it.
Now - it could be argued that if you have to do it one year, it should be an automatic cull, but things don't run exactly like that on my place... they probably should, but they don't...

Username John

jmrc wrote: »

read somewhere that selenium deficiency was a possible cause? along with genetics?
anyone come across anything to support this?

We had a couple this year, but give then a bit of time and seamed to open. young ewes mainly.

I read that as well somewhere jmrc... cant remember where - but I did a lot of goggling when I had the issue.
When they got the mineral buckets they seemed to be ok. Although it could be argued as well, any cases where it was going to happen, had happened at that stage... hard to know for certain.

We saw the issue in 2nd & 3rd crop sheep, that didn't have any issues previously, which would point more towards a lacking or change somehow this year...

LostCovey

Username John wrote: »

I appreciate that you see things from a very black and white perspective LC, and you like to stir things up a bit.

The OP asked for help, and had people any tips. One man replied, based on his experience. You disagreed, as it was against recommended dose - that's fine.
But then why come back with something like the comment above?

Frustration John.

There are a lot of people out there who like animals and like Irish food, and I don't like them to get the idea that their food comes from animals treated in the manner described in some threads on this forum. Read it again from the top.

Comments like::

"they would be lambing a couple of hours, , pressing a bit not making much headway. then you would put the hand in a find the Lock..... so after some lubrication and wiggling your getting nowhere. Off to the vets €€€€€ injections no good. section done.... all home and then she dies... Vet warned me about infection... its 50/50."

"one farmer friend reckons i should inject with calcium?? Dont think thats right.."

"A real pain in the back side for all concerned! Hopefully this thread can throw up some solutions. Nothing more frustrating than blasting down the road to the vet to throw over a ball of money. "

"one tip about handling/lambing ewes, make your mind in time in time which route you are going,"

"do not spend ages handling a ewe and then resort to a section, as most likely all you will finish up with is bills from the vet and the knackery"


Most Irish farmers don't treat their animals based on gossip picked up on the web, and most of them treat their animals very well, especially when they are giving birth. Most of them get professional advice when its appropriate.

Heartless, thoughtless, mindless stuff like the above is the exception not the rule.

If it goes unchallenged people reading this forum might think it was normal, or acceptable.

LC

Username John

LostCovey wrote: »

Frustration John.

There are a lot of people out there who like animals and like Irish food, and I don't like them to get the idea that their food comes from animals treated in the manner described in some threads on this forum. Read it again from the top.

Comments like::

"they would be lambing a couple of hours, , pressing a bit not making much headway. then you would put the hand in a find the Lock..... so after some lubrication and wiggling your getting nowhere. Off to the vets €€€€€ injections no good. section done.... all home and then she dies... Vet warned me about infection... its 50/50."

"one farmer friend reckons i should inject with calcium?? Dont think thats right.."

"A real pain in the back side for all concerned! Hopefully this thread can throw up some solutions. Nothing more frustrating than blasting down the road to the vet to throw over a ball of money. "

"one tip about handling/lambing ewes, make your mind in time in time which route you are going,"

"do not spend ages handling a ewe and then resort to a section, as most likely all you will finish up with is bills from the vet and the knackery"


Most Irish farmers don't treat their animals based on gossip picked up on the web, and most of them treat their animals very well, especially when they are giving birth. Most of them get professional advice when its appropriate.

Heartless, thoughtless, mindless stuff like the above is the exception not the rule.

If it goes unchallenged people reading this forum might think it was normal, or acceptable.

LC

Hi LC,

Thank for responding.

I can see one or two things in the comments you have picked out above, which I would question, but what is wrong with most of them?

We all know this isn't a vet advice forum, its like lads chatting down the mart, hearing others experiences...

As farming is a business, there are commercial considerations as well, which are referred to in the posts such as vet fees. I am not saying the vet should never be called, but vets are a cost. I think that's what was pointed out above.

I think you know something of sheep, so if you were in the same situation, you had a sheep start lambing, nothing doing - what would you do? I am not trying to catch you here, I am genuinely asking - as I imagine you would have the same thoughts as some of the above comments...

Lastly - if you think you are frustrated... place yourself in the mind of the OP - you have lambs and sheep dying, and you look for help - to hear others experience. Now you get to a comment that says "I could see why people turn vegetarian.":(

LostCovey

Username John wrote: »

Hi LC,

Thank for responding.

I can see one or two things in the comments you have picked out above, which I would question, but what is wrong with most of them?

We all know this isn't a vet advice forum, its like lads chatting down the mart, hearing others experiences...

As farming is a business, there are commercial considerations as well, which are referred to in the posts such as vet fees. I am not saying the vet should never be called, but vets are a cost. I think that's what was pointed out above.

I think you know something of sheep, so if you were in the same situation, you had a sheep start lambing, nothing doing - what would you do? I am not trying to catch you here, I am genuinely asking - as I imagine you would have the same thoughts as some of the above comments...

Lastly - if you think you are frustrated... place yourself in the mind of the OP - you have lambs and sheep dying, and you look for help - to hear others experience. Now you get to a comment that says "I could see why people turn vegetarian.":(

Fair points. John

But this is not the mart, the pub snug, the fireside, this is a public discussion.

And I apologise if offended the OP. I don't think the internet is a substitute for experienced advice, or professional advice. Nobody knows "who knows what here", and "who's a bluffer" (include me in that too).

I know a bit about sheep. I know enough about sheep not to generalise, and not to advise other people what to do when I know so little about their situation.

A few generalisations are true, in my experience.

If the cervix can be dilated with digital manipulation it's not ringwomb. Ringwomb is due to scarring of the cervix (often resulting from manual dilation the previous year, and true ringwomb needs a c section because its fibrous scar tissue and won't ever dilate.

Most things that are called 'ringwomb' simply aren't.

If sheep aren't dilating and lambs are dying, the reality is that the true situation is often the other way around - sheep are not dilating BECAUSE lambs are dying. The lamb plays a big role in triggering the normal sequence of hormonal changes that drive the birth process, and a weak/dead/dying lamb often understandably gets it wrong.

The OP may need to have c sections done, may need to find out why the lambs are weak/ewes won't open, or other help, but not much hope of any of that here.

There are commercial considerations, but not every lamb will leave a profit, and I have often paid for a section a multiple of what I got out of it (and they were the successful ones). You can't look at each transaction as a profit/loss opportunity.


But fair point, someone in the middle of this doesn't need preaching from me, they need help.

I still don't think the internet is the place to get it.

LC