The Press and Going overhead

Mellor

Back in the day the press was the daddy of them all. I'm not sure why, but prob a combination of removal from the oly lifts, bench press being becoming more popular/bigger numbers, but the press isn't a lift the average gym rat cares about. Obviously that doesn't apply to a lot of people reading.

For me, If I could improve one lift it would be the press. I'd like to get BW overhead. Even if I jerk it first, then move to push press it etc.
The first few times I tried to overhead squat the limiting factor was my push press. I've since switch to jerking it from behind the neck. But my limiting factor is now stability overhead - which should improve with press right?

I've been stuck at a paticular weight for a while. The other day I drop a rep from the previous week on my top set. When I was re-racking I looked at my hands and they were too wide. Prob like a bench grip and I was losing power at the bottom I think
I've been stuck here so long that I'm not sure where I should put them anymore.

So, Has anybody got tips or advice when it comes to improving the press. Not jsut grip, but all aspects.
I suppose we should include all the variations also.
Overhead press, push press, military press etc.

Molly

Where do you feel unstable when overhead?

You could also set the pins really high in a power cage, get under the bar with your arms fully extended in a 1/4 squat and then stand up. Should get you used to heavier weights overhead

Thud

had been stuck at a weight for a while as well.

one of the tips i read was:
You can push press more than you can press so push press past your sticking point to get comfortable with the higher weight over your head (they reckoned some of it was pscyhological) and once you have this higher weight over your head do the negative part slowly (bring it back down to chest slowly)

DamienH

When I'm pressing, I try to use a grip so that my shoulders/arms resemble a H instead of a W i.e. Forearms vertical. Before I press I try to get everything tight and it tends to feel like the difficult part of a pec dec. Shoulders pulled down and triceps resting on the lats.
This all makes for a nice solid base.

As regards assistance, I've found heavy weighted dips (8s,5s,3s) to really help with grinding out those +90% presses, but I think assistance exercises are a pretty personal choice. Find what works for you.

I second Molly's rack idea aswell. Try to put the pins just at or above your sticking point and press the bar overhead from there.

Dathai

This may not apply to you (as I'm not sure if you do oly lifting or what) but I've read in some strongman logs and articles that a lot of strongmen use close-grip benching and incline benching as their main assistance (other than strict pressing of course) to increase their overall overhead press.

Mellor

Molly wrote: »

Where do you feel unstable when overhead?

I was just refering to overhead squats there. When doing a 5 rep max, it's not my legs that are failing, its upper stability. That's prob the case for everyone. OHS max is lower than front squat. I just meant increasing press strength should help my OHS.

rubadub

Thud wrote: »

so push press past your sticking point to get comfortable with the higher weight over your head

Thats what I do sometimes, or just on the last few reps. If doing single dumbbell presses you can use the free hand to assist it up for a slow negative too, a weight you might be unable to get up there even with a push press. I also once made a sort of sling which went over a smooth pullup bar which acted like a pulley, I could assist the dumbbell up and do a slow negative.

I can now do single arm dumbbell presses of 27kg for 12reps or so. I tried 56kg on a bar and could only manage 3 reps though, took it down to 51kg (less than twice my single ability) and still only managed about 5 reps. I thought this was strange. Perhaps I am just not used to the bar, and there is probably no way I would do 2 dumbbells at 27kg at the same time, as I tend to swing the free arm out like most kettlebell presses you see.

Is there anything wrong with doing dumbbells one arm at a time? (I only have plates at home, just enough for 1).

Turbo_diesel

I've been stuck at a paticular weight for a while. The other day I drop a rep from the previous week on my top set. When I was re-racking I looked at my hands and they were too wide. Prob like a bench grip and I was losing power at the bottom I think
I've been stuck here so long that I'm not sure where I should put them anymore.

So, Has anybody got tips or advice when it comes to improving the press. Not jsut grip, but all aspects.
I suppose we should include all the variations also.
Overhead press, push press, military press etc.[/QUOTE]

Mellor you could try just getting way more volume in. So maybe press 3* times a week at lightish weights & just progress slowly. Doing allot of tricep work is also meant to help. The below article from Bill Starr should be of interest.
http://startingstrength.com/articles/stronger_press_starr.pdf
I also took the below from Dan John's Q&A forum which has some good info on increasing the press
boy oh boy one of my favorite topics, plus one with a bunch of information out there...

1. Inclines - they work per tommy kono
2. Dips - yes
3. Handstand presses or wall presses - yes
4. Partial presses - yes
5. Bradford presses - yes
6. Change grip width per set - yes
7. 8 to 10 sets of 2 ala old school lifters - yes
8. Push presses - yes and no - depends on how you do them
9. Use bands/chains when pressing - yes but not a necessity.
10. Bench pressing - maybe I never found any carryover, good for tightening up region...I would do incline instead;
11. Work on abs, hip flexors, legs, upper back...a good press requires a good base to press from;
12. Technique - very important I would devote a day/week on light weight and good solid technique...if you clean first before maximum attempt then clean first here as well;
13. Put the lift you want to work on first in the workout - yes, yes, yes
14. Leverages do a play a part...instance a deadlift of 500 maybe due to long arms and exceptional technique...pressing overhead maybe hard for them to do..
15. More mass in shoulder girdle better you can press
16. DB presses yes....
17. One arm presses yes
18. A note regarding flexibility....if your shoulders, arms too flexible you may have trouble developing tension at the bottom position thus limiting weight you can press....such as if you can do overhead squats with narrow grip you may want to dial it down a little...
19. I've started power curling to press....light weight but good for added volume...
20. Press everyday....which is more tiring some military presses or clean and jerks....my guess is that you can do it just watch how tired you are getting...It takes a loong time to build volume....
21. Shoes...I found it is easier to press directly overhead with a heeled shoe.

Using some of the above methods I got up to a 235 lb clean and press at 165 lbs - strict too, heels together...I also knocked out 100s clean and press with globe dbs...

Hanley

Are we talking about overhead squat or press?? Or both??

kevpants

I noticed an improvement from heavy strict or push presses where I dropped the bar from overhead. Basically cut out the eccentric portion. The eccentric bit of an overhead press absolutely knackers you. I lifted outside so dropping it was ok but otherwise you'd need bumpers.

Mellor

Hanley wrote: »

Are we talking about overhead squat or press?? Or both??

Press. In all its forms.

I mentioned OHS in passing that press was a limiting factor. Somebody, focused on that. Overhead squats ar for antoher thread.

kevpants wrote: »

I noticed an improvement from heavy strict or push presses where I dropped the bar from overhead. Basically cut out the eccentric portion. The eccentric bit of an overhead press absolutely knackers you. I lifted outside so dropping it was ok but otherwise you'd need bumpers.

I like the sound of that tbh. I do find the eccentric portion tiring when trying to control max sets.
But I don't have bumpers or outdoors.

Anybody got references for grip width. I know I could just grab a bar and see. But what is comfortable might not be optimal.

d'Oracle

I disagree with kevpants. Second press always seems easier than the first to me, at least before clearing the head which is the hardest bit anyway.

Also I find I press better when I clean the weight than when taking it from the rack, no idea why but it works for me.

Also work hard on mobilising your thoracic spine and make sure to squeeze your lats at the bottom.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

I disagree with kevpants. Second press always seems easier than the first to me, at least before clearing the head which is the hardest bit anyway.

Also I find I press better when I clean the weight than when taking it from the rack, no idea why but it works for me.

Also work hard on mobilising your thoracic spine and make sure to squeeze your lats at the bottom.

I'd assume there's some stretch reflex type effect when cleaning/pressing after an eccentric.

I find the second press easier too. But like doing it without the eccentric does probably build better starting strength which leads to a better long term press.

Thud

d'Oracle wrote: »

Also I find I press better when I clean the weight than when taking it from the rack, no idea why but it works for me.
.

I find that as well.
Suppose it's something to do with getting to central nervous system firing or "being pumped"

Do you clean each rep or just the first one?

Mellor

Hanley wrote: »

I'd assume there's some stretch reflex type effect when cleaning/pressing after an eccentric.

Yeah from what I've read the stretch reflex stores some of the energy from the eccentric portion of the lift.
Edit: similar to plyometric exercises like depth jumps


http://www.elitefts.com/documents/stretch_reflex.htm

kevpants

d'Oracle wrote: »

I disagree with kevpants. Second press always seems easier than the first to me, at least before clearing the head which is the hardest bit anyway.

Also I find I press better when I clean the weight than when taking it from the rack, no idea why but it works for me.

Also work hard on mobilising your thoracic spine and make sure to squeeze your lats at the bottom.

The second press feels easier to get moving, you store up energy on the eccentric portion of the lift. In fact your 1rm would be higher if you were to unrack the weight fully locked out and completed a full rep that way, like a bench press.

Similarly squatting off pins or benching off pins can sometimes take 2 or 3 seconds of effort before the bar starts to move and your 1rm is massively decreased.

But this effect doesn't mean you're building strength, the eccentric portion of the OH press is essentially of no benefit as far as strength gains goes but it significantly fatigues you.

Ever notice how the amount of reps you can do with a OH press drops so much faster over a few sets? This is down to the eccentric portion knackering you. You'll find if you drop the bar from overhead you'll be able to do very heavy singles for multiple sets without this big dropoff in strength

d'Oracle

kevpants wrote: »

The second press feels easier to get moving, you store up energy on the eccentric portion of the lift. In fact your 1rm would be higher if you were to unrack the weight fully locked out and completed a full rep that way, like a bench press.

Similarly squatting off pins or benching off pins can sometimes take 2 or 3 seconds of effort before the bar starts to move and your 1rm is massively decreased.

But this effect doesn't mean you're building strength, the eccentric portion of the OH press is essentially of no benefit as far as strength gains goes but it significantly fatigues you.

I understand all that.
I'm not sure I agree. You are getting more reps in with the weight, even if the second rep is assisted by the stretch-shortening cycle or whatever you are still pressing the weight.
I also don't think you are right in saying it doesnt mean one is building strength. If we accept that maximal singles are the only way to build strength then yes, but there are more than that.

Like I'm probably missing the point here, but surely then powerlifters should just do bottom up benching and just do a few reps with negatives before a meet?

kevpants wrote: »

Ever notice how the amount of reps you can do with a OH press drops so much faster over a few sets? This is down to the eccentric portion knackering you. You'll find if you drop the bar from overhead you'll be able to do very heavy singles for multiple sets without this big dropoff in strength

Not significantly more than any other lifts/
Again, I'm not sure if you are saying this is some sort of specific issue with the press or that its true for every lift.

kevpants

d'Oracle wrote: »

I understand all that.
I'm not sure I agree. You are getting more reps in with the weight, even if the second rep is assisted by the stretch-shortening cycle or whatever you are still pressing the weight.
I also don't think you are right in saying it doesnt mean one is building strength. If we accept that maximal singles are the only way to build strength then yes, but there are more than that.

Like I'm probably missing the point here, but surely then powerlifters should just do bottom up benching and just do a few reps with negatives before a meet?

I'm just talking specifically about overhead pressing here. It's generally a bitch of a lift to get improvements with, or you get to about 75-80%BW in it and then find it impossible to get any stronger.

I spent a block of training where I prioritized it and read as much about it as I could, found most of the good info was from weightlifting centred people like Pendlay etc and a advice I saw repeated was to press heavy and drop the bar. I tried it myself and lo and behold my press moved up to the point where I think i was strict pressing 90% BW but more importantly I saw strength increases superior to what I've had from high rep or bodybuilding style "shoulder destroyer" training.

And your point about powerlifters doing bottom up stuff is kinda true. That's the idea behind pause squats and benches and the reason some powerlifters struggle with the long pause on the bench, they are going touch and go all year but the longer pause in comp dissipates all that stored up energy and it becomes a lot harder.

d'Oracle wrote: »

Not significantly more than any other lifts/
Again, I'm not sure if you are saying this is some sort of specific issue with the press or that its true for every lift.

Just looking at my log and I notice a much bigger drop-off set to set in strength with overhead pressing. I also find a much bigger drop off between 1st and 2nd set than other lifts. My theory is it's down to the eccentirc portion, in fact I'm pretty sure of it. I also noticed my strength on multiple sets of singles drops off much quicker if I lower the bar under control after the lift. If I drop it from overhead I retain much more strength.

I'm basically advocating saving strength for lifting the bar instead of lowering it because it seems to produce better strength gains.

Mellor

d'Oracle wrote: »

I understand all that.
I'm not sure I agree. You are getting more reps in with the weight, even if the second rep is assisted by the stretch-shortening cycle or whatever you are still pressing the weight..

I think you are comparing two different things. Stopping the bar doesn't really work with 5rm sets. I suppose you could pause it if you wanted to remove the stretch reflex.

I took his comments to mean it is better to press and drop for 5 singles rather than lowering under control and getting in 3 singles.
By singles I'd mean above 90% of 1rm. It's something I'd like to try, but no bumpers here

Sangre

I've tried to start pressing twice a week with a view to increasing press. Had neglected it for a while to focus on barbell bench press which I hadn't done in about six months. I've been doing one heavy day and one light day.

However, I'm coming across a problem which I'm pretty sure has been niggling at me for a long time. Basically, my left shoulder is fatiguing very quickly when pressing and then feels wrecked for rest of workout. It feels like the front deltoid is being exhausted. It has the feeling as if I've been doing external rotations on just the left shoulder.

I don't think its to do with a weakness in the shoulder. When I used to DB press or bench press there was no significant weakness in the left arm.

It seems to me that my bar path isn't consistent/symetrical at all and my shoulders aren't tracking properly at all. My left shoulder seems to pop out a bit and lift first.

Anyone have any kind of experience with this? Is this a case of working on mobility or re-learning the pathway?

Hanley

Sangre wrote: »

I've tried to start pressing twice a week with a view to increasing press. Had neglected it for a while to focus on barbell bench press which I hadn't done in about six months. I've been doing one heavy day and one light day.

However, I'm coming across a problem which I'm pretty sure has been niggling at me for a long time. Basically, my left shoulder is fatiguing very quickly when pressing and then feels wrecked for rest of workout. It feels like the front deltoid is being exhausted. It has the feeling as if I've been doing external rotations on just the left shoulder.

I don't think its to do with a weakness in the shoulder. When I used to DB press or bench press there was no significant weakness in the left arm.

It seems to me that my bar path isn't consistent/symetrical at all and my shoulders aren't tracking properly at all. My left shoulder seems to pop out a bit and lift first.

Anyone have any kind of experience with this? Is this a case of working on mobility or re-learning the pathway?

The most obvious answers would seem to be;
1) Try to concentrate on keeping your shoulder pinned down
2) Work scap retraction/thoracic extension
3) Look for any difference in flexibility/mobility around there
4) Look at rotator cuff weakness and asymmetries

And Kevpants is speaking a lot of sense in this thread. The Strength Sports forum is really starting to deliver.

kevpants

Sangre wrote: »

I've tried to start pressing twice a week with a view to increasing press. Had neglected it for a while to focus on barbell bench press which I hadn't done in about six months. I've been doing one heavy day and one light day.

However, I'm coming across a problem which I'm pretty sure has been niggling at me for a long time. Basically, my left shoulder is fatiguing very quickly when pressing and then feels wrecked for rest of workout. It feels like the front deltoid is being exhausted. It has the feeling as if I've been doing external rotations on just the left shoulder.

I don't think its to do with a weakness in the shoulder. When I used to DB press or bench press there was no significant weakness in the left arm.

It seems to me that my bar path isn't consistent/symetrical at all and my shoulders aren't tracking properly at all. My left shoulder seems to pop out a bit and lift first.

Anyone have any kind of experience with this? Is this a case of working on mobility or re-learning the pathway?

Sounds like maybe you're not retracting one shoulder blade. Maybe try band pullaparts or at least pay attention to see if this is happening. Just a theory, others might have better ideas.

Sangre

I'll try to focus on keep shoulders back to see if that helps. To be honest, its not one of the cues I use at the moment?

Any recommended flexibility/mobility tests for the shoulder area where I can compare? I have recently noticed my shoulders are internally rotated (like most people who send the day at a desk probably) so I need to work on that anyway.

If I do have mobility issues in the left, it may have been the cause of a forearm injury I had a few months ago. One day it just became sore for ages and I couldn't do any exercises where I had my plams facing up e.g., curls or chin-ups. My flexibility on that arm hasn't come back and last time I tried chin-ups still felt weird but curls are fine. A shoulder mobility issue may have put undue pressure on forearm/wrist area. Obviously thats just a guess but these things are always seem to be related somehow.

Sangre

I've dropped the weight on OHP and have been focusing on squeezing blades together for duration of the lift. Seems to help as the left shoulder doesn't fatigue as quickly. Not sure if its only because its a low weight though.

I have to really focus on squeezing the blades together though as it doesn't come naturally.

I have started trying to foam roll again, particularly upper back and lats. Have neglected for a while as I'm fairly limited on time throughout the week. I've noticed that my left lat is really tight/painful. Much moreso than the right. Might help explain difference in mobility between two shoulders.