Common Area Maintenance

Cartman78

(First time posting here - not 100% sure if this is the right forum tbh so apologies in advance if incorrect)

Living in an 5 year old estate and have recently found out that the builder is no longer able to maintain the upkeep of common areas, grass cutting etc.

This info came via a neighbour who popped a letter in all the houses in phase 1 of the estate (about 20 houses - there are 2 other estates with about 25-30 houses in each and similar sized green areas).

He suggested that everyone in our phase chip in to buy a lawnmower, which I personally think is a bad idea.

There is no Residents Committee in place at the moment, but I think the only logical way to go (assuming the builder is out of the picture and the infamous Household charge is non-applicable) would be to get a contribution off every household to pay for a maintenance company to continue with the work.

I've written to a local councillor asking for advice but was wondering if anyone else has experienced this?

also if anyone has information about how best to set up a Residents Committee I'd be very grateful.

Thanks in advance, cm

djimi

I suspect what you want to do is set up a management company for the estate (not a residents committee; a RC typically conjures up a image of a group of busybody neighbours who have no real power but love to meddle!) and have the management company hire the services of a management agent. Assuming that everyone in the estate is on the same wavelength and prepared to fund the services of the management agent then this is one avenue to explore.

I have no real experience of such a matter though so I could be talking nonsense!

Paulw

djimi wrote: »

I have no real experience of such a matter though so I could be talking nonsense!

You are. You can't just go and setup a management company. Well, you can, but they will have no more power than a resident's association/committee.

Firstly, is the development a managed development? If it's not, then it is up to the builder to transfer responsibility to your local council who will then be responsible for the upkeep of common areas.

If you are in a managed development, then there should already be a management company in place with this responsibility.

A resident's committee/association have no power and no authority. They can request donations from residents for the upkeep of the area, but no one has any obligation to pay or contribute.

Cartman78

Paulw wrote: »

You are. You can't just go and setup a management company. Well, you can, but they will have no more power than a resident's association/committee.

Firstly, is the development a managed development? If it's not, then it is up to the builder to transfer responsibility to your local council who will then be responsible for the upkeep of common areas.

If you are in a managed development, then there should already be a management company in place with this responsibility.

A resident's committee/association have no power and no authority. They can request donations from residents for the upkeep of the area, but no one has any obligation to pay or contribute.

Thanks a mill - this is exactly the info I was looking for.

To the best of my knowledge, it is not a managed development so looks like the builder will have to get the thumb out a bit more (apparently, the builder is willing to contribute towards the puchase of a lawnmower...didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that:().

I'll keep up the pressure on the local councillor so and see what happens - in fairness she's been fairly helpful so far on other issues so fingers crossed

djimi

Paulw wrote: »

You are. You can't just go and setup a management company. Well, you can, but they will have no more power than a resident's association/committee.

Fair enough; Ill back out of the thread slowly so!

MrPillowTalk

Cartman78 wrote: »

Thanks a mill - this is exactly the info I was looking for.

To the best of my knowledge, it is not a managed development so looks like the builder will have to get the thumb out a bit more (apparently, the builder is willing to contribute towards the puchase of a lawnmower...didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that:().

I'll keep up the pressure on the local councillor so and see what happens - in fairness she's been fairly helpful so far on other issues so fingers crossed

It's clearly not a managed development as you would have to pay a service charge and your solicitor would have advised you that it's a managed development at purchase.

Really this is an issue of your local council failing to take the development in charge, councils will use every excuse not to take developments in charge as they don't want the cost of servicing them. In most cases where they aren't taking them in charge they use the excuse that the development is not complete as to the granted planning permission (is here unfinished parts of the estate?) and seek to place the management back on to the builder. However given the current climate and most developers not having the funds to complete developments or maintain them on an ongoing basis you can end up stuck in limbo.

My advice would be to get in touch with your local coucilors about taking the completed sections of the estate in charge, I have a feeling you will have to push quite hard to get them to do anything though.

the_syco

Form a residents committee, and you'll be able to get funds off your CC.

StillWaters

Why do you think buying a lawn mower and setting up a rota is a bad idea? It's not uncommon in small newish estates not handed over to the Council yet. Contracting the grass cutting out to a local garden company/person will be more expensive.

Don't assume you don't have to pay the household charge. You have to be a listed ghost estate to be exempt.

Setting up a RA is easy, get a few neighbours together, send out a letter/call to each house saying a meeting will be held in your local pub/hall to set up a RA. Get someone to chair it. Elect the Committee. Talk through ideas, establish the contribution from each house etc.

steelboots

The estate I live in has been taken over late last year. Builder was maintaining (if you could call it that) up to this point. I rang the council to be told they will only look after essential services such as lights, water, sewerage, roads and footpaths. They say the residents are responsible for the maintenance of tress, grass etc...

I asked them if there were any grants or help provided to be told no. I started a resident’s committee a couple of years ago, mainly to get residents together for cleanup days. Attendance at best is 20%.

I would not be in favor of buying a ride on and taking turns in cutting grass for the following reasons:
1) How would insurance work and you would have to have insurance?
2) Who stores it? They are sizeable and generally space in 3/4 bed semi is not plentiful.

My preference would be collect the money but I'm getting quotes of €2,600 for cutting grass on a 40 house estate. Which if everyone paid would be €65 euro per house hold.

But not everyone is going to pay, and with the house hold charge due soon suspect allot of people will ask the question "What am I paying the €100 house hold charge for" and fair enough why are we ?

Will post an update after the meeting to let you know what we plan to do

pawnacide

Jaysus has the world gone nutz .. buy a fu***ng lawn mower.. actually buy 3 .. one for each green. Management companies are a ridiculous concept for a housing development of that size.

If a bunch of adults cant come together and organise a bit of grass cutting and the storage of a lawnmower there's little hope for humanity .. if there's teenagers in the estate pay them to cut the grass although they might have to do a FAS course first .. ya know for insurance purposes.

ebixa82

Get a lawnmower off a friend, if not possible rent one. Don't bother asking your neighbours.

Spend a nice bright Saturday afternoon in the open air with some music through your headphones cutting the grass.

You'll feel great after all that exercise. Job done!

Cartman78

steelboots wrote: »

The estate I live in has been taken over late last year. Builder was maintaining (if you could call it that) up to this point. I rang the council to be told they will only look after essential services such as lights, water, sewerage, roads and footpaths. They say the residents are responsible for the maintenance of tress, grass etc...

I asked them if there were any grants or help provided to be told no. I started a resident’s committee a couple of years ago, mainly to get residents together for cleanup days. Attendance at best is 20%.

I would not be in favor of buying a ride on and taking turns in cutting grass for the following reasons:
1) How would insurance work and you would have to have insurance?
2) Who stores it? They are sizeable and generally space in 3/4 bed semi is not plentiful.

My preference would be collect the money but I'm getting quotes of €2,600 for cutting grass on a 40 house estate. Which if everyone paid would be €65 euro per house hold.

But not everyone is going to pay, and with the house hold charge due soon suspect allot of people will ask the question "What am I paying the €100 house hold charge for" and fair enough why are we ?

Will post an update after the meeting to let you know what we plan to do

Agree with pretty much everything you said....it's simple in theory to say buy a mower but given the way of the world these days it's a major pain in the a$$.

Eg. Say if the communal lawnmower was bought and Tom from next door was cutting the grass. If he was to injure and/or maim a child/man/woman/dog/cat/hamster/goldfish/himself while on the lawnmower or scrape the rear end of a neighbours Mondeo then I suggest he would be in a whole world of sh1t.

Also, the guy who came up with the idea has turned out to be a bit of a psycho (or at least, he comes across as one in the way he writes - 2nd letter thru the door the other night was borderline threatening). Not going to engage with him at all to be honest, have enough stress in my life at the moment without worrying about the height of the grass in an area used almost exlcusively for dogs going for a crap.

anyhoo, have been on to one of the local councillors who is looking into the matter

pawnacide

wow .. humanity really is fu***d, I'm of to the mountains ..later.

BTW I'm guessing your local councilor is talking to another local councilor about how helpless the world has become.

Cartman78

pawnacide wrote: »

wow .. humanity really is fu***d, I'm of to the mountains ..later.

BTW I'm guessing your local councilor is talking to another local councilor about how helpless the world has become.

They're probably communicating with each other via another Boards thread

steelboots

We had a commitee meeting recently regarding maintenance fo grass etc...

Two options proposed for 40 hse estate with approx .5 to .75 acre of grass

i) Get a contractor ranging from €1600 - €3000 depending on number of cuts, sprating, strimming, grass collection.
ii) Buy a ride on for €2200 and share effort amoungs 2-3 residents per year rotating. Cheaper option and have more control over quality etc...

Only problem with option ii above and maybe the first one is insurance ?

Any one expierence of insurance ?

Cartman78

Not much experience of insurance but plenty of lawnmowers - one thing about them is that they break down a lot.

The maintenance, servicing, replacing parts etc. of a high use lawnmower could be costly. Fuel is another issue as well. Have ye factored this into the overall cost?

Unfortunately, I think insurance is a huge issue if you buy a lawnmower. As I mentioned in a previous post, there's a whole bunch of things that could potentially go wrong. It's a sad state of affairs I know, but that's the way things are these days.

I would imagine that any contractor would have public liability insurance (?). Either way, I think purchasing a mower is an appealing but ultimately flawed idea. It might be cheaper on paper but might not be worth it for all the potential headaches and/or lawsuits.

Anyway, let me know what ye decide to do. Sounds a lot more promising than our situation at the minute:mad:

steelboots

Thanks Cartman78,

Yes its a sad state of affairs when Insurance companys are recommending I get public liability of between 2.5 and 6 million.

Appearetly even a basic clean up day should have cover, and also even if we are getting in contractors we still need insurance. What if a contractors insurance expires, is canceled etc..

Estate in the same town bought thier lawnmower adn are doing it them selves without insurance. Seems to me you never have enough cover and if you do will be too expensive.

Don't know what to do

Cartman78

:eek: That's an alarming amount for an insurance quote alright. Do you mind me asking what part of the country you're in? Probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference though.

Seems odd though that ye would need it even if getting contractors in?? Surely they'd have their own public liability insurance and would be liable themselves if that policy became invalid for any reason.

The best and most obvious solution would be that the council comes in and takes over but from what I can gather this only happens in very extreme circumstances.
(I'm very much open to correction on this btw...if there's a case where the council has taken charge of an estate, I'd love to hear about it).

Wibbler

Cartman78 wrote: »

:eek: That's an alarming amount for an insurance quote alright.

That's the level of cover, not the premium, I'd imagine :-) €2.5m & €6m are standard levels of PL cover, AFAIK.

Cartman78

Wibbler wrote: »

That's the level of cover, not the premium, I'd imagine :-) €2.5m & €6m are standard levels of PL cover, AFAIK.

I know that would be a helluva premium to be paying every year alright.

Would certainly make the lawnmower purchase option more appealing

x4winnie

We did the purchase of lawnmower option a few years ago, but it just didn't work, we didn't get insurance, lawn mover needed servicing kept breaking down. bickering about who would/wouldn't cut grass etc. We currently pay a contractor, but like other posters here, only half of residents pay & subsidise the rest.It is very frustrating.

Has anyone any suggestions as to how to get everyone to pay their share.
What if councils were to be responsible for the services of cutting the grass, collection of rubbish etc with charge to be included in 'household charge'.
It would create employment????

Paulw

x4winnie wrote: »

Has anyone any suggestions as to how to get everyone to pay their share.

What if councils were to be responsible for the services of cutting the grass, collection of rubbish etc with charge to be included in 'household charge'.

Firstly, you have no way to get everyone to pay. People pay if they want. They have no obligation at all, nor any legal responsibility to pay it. If they don't want to pay, there is nothing at all you can do.

What do you mean "what if councils were to be responsible"???? They ARE responsible, but in most cases they just don't do it. You need to hassle and chase the council and your local councillors about the issue.

Lantus

A managment company (OMC) can only be formed by writing the legal terms into everyones lease agreement signed upon purchase and forming a company. If this has not been done already it's probably technically feasible to set one up assuming you had the legal resources to make all the changes but legally agreeing to sign a document binding you to an annual service fee when you dont need to wont sit well with everyone and unless 100% sign up you can't do it. (so in reality its not possible.)

The residents Association (RA) is the only way to go. This is a voluntary system so you will get a sliding scale of people paying depending on what they are like. It takes time to build a good RA and by developing the semse of community you can get high levels of committment towards things like grass cutting. Prepapre to spend a lot of time organising things.

In realtion to insurance technically you should have it but such a small area I wouldn't worry too much. We dont have any and have 10 acres. Chances of hitting a car or maiming a child are astronomical.

Fuel and maintenence are the biggest headaches.

My only experience from our RA is that being +ve and progressive works best. Never attack those who dont pay or bemoan them. Just praise and thank those who do and move forward. Involve as many people as you can and empower them with responsibility in what ever specialist area they feel best in.

EDIT: local coco's nowadays are droppping grass cutting, too expensive and they dont have parks departments. As others have said the sewers, roads and lights are the best you can normally hope for.

x4winnie

thanks for the advice Lantus & paulw, its been very helpful. I will work on encouraging the non payers to get more involved. I know that its not possible to 'make ' people pay, but its also not possible to 'make' the council take responsibility for cutting the grass either.

Macaonbhuit

I am currently involved in a residents association, and we have other issues such as unfinished roads that we are dealing with between the council and the developer (with limited success). We are collecting for basic green area maintenance, and have had about 75% success rate in the past collecting money on a door to door basis. Those who don't pay... tend never to pay. We don't name and shame non-payers, we just thank those who contribute (though not specifically). This year we are encountering more problems collecting and it looks as if we will simply have to cease maintenance soon. Our only course of action is to alert all residents that the grass will be left unmaintained from when funds run out. I'm wondering if anyone has gotten to a point, where the grass has been up to their knees and it has gotten a response (one that results in more contributions)..? Its not something that we want to do, but it looks as if we will have no choice.....

Lantus

Macaonbhuit wrote: »

I am currently involved in a residents association, and we have other issues such as unfinished roads that we are dealing with between the council and the developer (with limited success). We are collecting for basic green area maintenance, and have had about 75% success rate in the past collecting money on a door to door basis. Those who don't pay... tend never to pay. We don't name and shame non-payers, we just thank those who contribute (though not specifically). This year we are encountering more problems collecting and it looks as if we will simply have to cease maintenance soon. Our only course of action is to alert all residents that the grass will be left unmaintained from when funds run out. I'm wondering if anyone has gotten to a point, where the grass has been up to their knees and it has gotten a response (one that results in more contributions)..? Its not something that we want to do, but it looks as if we will have no choice.....

Grass up to our knees is how we got started! The management agent upped and left without any notice and the directors who are the developers dont give two hoots and wont even talk to us. That was 2+ years ago.

If the grass goes to meadow its a nightmare. Normal mowers wont do the job, you need a tractor or an army of strimmers. Took us months to get it looking like grass. People soon forget though.......

I would approach it (when convincing people to pay) from the angles of: -

1/ Keeping the estate looking tidy and clean.
2/ House prices and values as best as they can be.
3/ Safety and amenity for children playing (they wont see glass or other dangers in long grass.)
4/ Long grass collects a furious amount of rubbish.
5/ Rats will love for you for it.
6/ If it goes to meadow it will cost more to get it back to grass!

Defo canvas the area with a leaflet explaining the importance and then go door to door or hold a meeting an invite everyone.

steelboots

Couple of weeks/months later......

Nearly finished the process of collecting the money. Asked €80 per household. 30 out of the 40 have paid with 3 promises to pay and 1 more land lord yet to be contacted so would hope to get upto 85% paid up.

Bought two very nice powerful 22" walk behind lawn mowers with elec. start for €1495. Very easy to use for any residents who want to help out.

The grass has been cut 3 times at this stage and I have to say how the appearence of the estate has improved no end. There are two main areas to be cut and generally alternatinate between 6 residents. For two people to mow the entire estate take 50mins and about €3 in petrol.

The cleanups and grass cutting have got more people out of their houses and there is a better community spirit.

Just need to keep the monumtum up

Hope this is of help to those in similar situtations.

donalg1

Paulw wrote: »

You are. You can't just go and setup a management company. Well, you can, but they will have no more power than a resident's association/committee.

Firstly, is the development a managed development? If it's not, then it is up to the builder to transfer responsibility to your local council who will then be responsible for the upkeep of common areas.

If you are in a managed development, then there should already be a management company in place with this responsibility.

A resident's committee/association have no power and no authority. They can request donations from residents for the upkeep of the area, but no one has any obligation to pay or contribute.

Even if the Council take the estate in charge they will not take on the responsibility of the upkeep and maintenance of any common/green areas this will be left to the residents. The Council will only take over the Roads & Services and wont be cutting grass or anything of the sort, and its a long drawn out process for the Council to take the Roads & Services in charge.

They wont do it if there is even the smallest problem with the estate, because if they take it in charge while there are remedial problems they would have to foot the bill to fix these which obviously makes no sense for them to do this. Therefore its only estates that have no outstanding issues that will be taken in charge.

Lantus

donalg1 wrote: »

Even if the Council take the estate in charge they will not take on the responsibility of the upkeep and maintenance of any common/green areas this will be left to the residents. The Council will only take over the Roads & Services and wont be cutting grass or anything of the sort, and its a long drawn out process for the Council to take the Roads & Services in charge.

They wont do it if there is even the smallest problem with the estate, because if they take it in charge while there are remedial problems they would have to foot the bill to fix these which obviously makes no sense for them to do this. Therefore its only estates that have no outstanding issues that will be taken in charge.

This isn't technically correct. When estates are built the builder/developer gives a bond to the local coco to cover any outstanding works at the end. When the taking incharge process begins the coco survey the estate and make a big list of everything that needs to be done. There then follows a sort of bartering and negotiation process with the developer as to what will actually be done and a lot of haggling of prices etc. Sometimes the coco will pay the builder to do the work using the bond they lodged?!? Sometimes the coco will get third parties in or if possible do the work themselves. When all this work is done to the coco's satisfaction the estate is taken in charge.

The big problem with this process is 2 fold: -

1/ The builder needs to start it. The local coco has no power to begin a taking in charge process unless the builder requests it. (maddness)

2/ The bonds in many cases were not cash but 'paper' bonds. Insurance slips covered by the CIF. All good and well but many builders just stopped making payments and so now there is no bond and the local coco it seems it powerless.

donalg1

Lantus wrote: »

This isn't technically correct. When estates are built the builder/developer gives a bond to the local coco to cover any outstanding works at the end. When the taking incharge process begins the coco survey the estate and make a big list of everything that needs to be done. There then follows a sort of bartering and negotiation process with the developer as to what will actually be done and a lot of haggling of prices etc. Sometimes the coco will pay the builder to do the work using the bond they lodged?!? Sometimes the coco will get third parties in or if possible do the work themselves. When all this work is done to the coco's satisfaction the estate is taken in charge.

The big problem with this process is 2 fold: -

1/ The builder needs to start it. The local coco has no power to begin a taking in charge process unless the builder requests it. (maddness)

2/ The bonds in many cases were not cash but 'paper' bonds. Insurance slips covered by the CIF. All good and well but many builders just stopped making payments and so now there is no bond and the local coco it seems it powerless.

Dont think this is madness now really why would the Council want to take any estate in charge, its just going to end up costing them money so would in no way be of any benefit to the Council.

A majority of the owners of the houses in the estate can also make an application to begin this process.

Anyway my point was that even if by some miracle the Council took this estate in charge tomorrow they wont be cutting any grass there.

steelboots

One year down:

- Estate was cut regularly, had about 5 volunteers cutting grass.
- Lawnmowers worked a treat, got serviced recently for €150
- Total petrol costs were about €50.
- Had money left over to replace and repair trees etc..
- 33 out of 40 paid up (83%) and hope to get one or two more.
- Did not get insurance, just keep volunteers to a small number and fingers crossed. Have to take chances in this life.

All in all a very successful year, even buying, running and servicing Lawnmowers it was cheaper than a contractor for one year, and with the money left in the kitty we probably have enough to cover 2013, but will collect a few bob.