facebook & teachers &children

shazj

i think ur dead right amtaxi!! i would feel very uncomfortable if a teacher wanted to be friends with one of my kids! everything u say makes sense. the pedos in this country got away with it far to long because no one asked questions or confronted the possible ones! if this teacher has added his students for innocent reasons he will have no problem if u have a word with the principal which i would. and honestly as a teacher he should know better!! what age is your child?

Glinda

A question for those who are completely comfortable with facebook contact, how would you feel if you found out a teacher was phoning or texting your child socially?

I have to say I'm not one to be paranoid about things generally, but this feels inappropriate to me, just as social phone calls/texts or emails from a teacher/coach/other adult in a position of authority outside of the normal context of their professional relationship would seem inappropriate and at best unwise.

cynder

Glinda wrote: »

A question for those who are completely comfortable with facebook contact, how would you feel if you found out a teacher was phoning or texting your child socially?

I have to say I'm not one to be paranoid about things generally, but this feels inappropriate to me, just as social phone calls/texts or emails from a teacher/coach/other adult in a position of authority outside of the normal context of their professional relationship would seem inappropriate and at best unwise.

Depends on the conversation, some teachers know kids as they are neighbours, or are related. A few of my daughters friends are facebook friends with me, i dont post anything untoward and have PMed them a few time regarding setting up sleepovers and town trips/cinema trips and so on. My daughter also has a few adult moms as her friends, one invited her to her wedding in august as she is good friends with her daughter.

She also has her horse riding instructors as friends ( and one of the horse riding instructors has at least 60 or 70 under 18's as a friend) im totally comfortable with that. She is also my friend. I get on really well with her and she gets on great with my daughter. No trust issues what so ever.

CrazyRabbit

Glinda wrote: »

A question for those who are completely comfortable with facebook contact, how would you feel if you found out a teacher was phoning or texting your child socially?

I have to say I'm not one to be paranoid about things generally, but this feels inappropriate to me, just as social phone calls/texts or emails from a teacher/coach/other adult in a position of authority outside of the normal context of their professional relationship would seem inappropriate and at best unwise.

It depends. Was a reason given to me by the teacher that makes sense? Is it done secretly? What is the content of the texts/messaging/emails etc? It could be completely harmless or absolutely vile.

Back when I was 13, there was a Christian Brother who brought myself and 2 other lads out ever few weekends. Usually a walk somewhere, a meal, and a lot of chatting. I had a lot of bad things happen to me around that age, he spotted that and this was his way to help. I greatly appreciated it. In todays worlds, I'm sure he would have used texts and facebook. There was never anything inappropriate...just a kind soul helping some troubled kids during his weekends.

Society and the media has us suspicious of everyone. They have most people thinking that there are paedophiles around every corner just looking for a chance to kidnap/abuse kids. In truth, the number of teachers, or people in general who would harm a child is incredible small.

I go back to what I said earlier. If you trust the teacher during school hours, then I don't see why that trust should suddenly disappear in Facebook, Twitter etc. You either trust the teacher or you don't.

cynder

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It depends. Was a reason given to me by the teacher that makes sense? Is it done secretly? What is the content of the texts/messaging/emails etc? It could be completely harmless or absolutely vile.

t.

+1 all depends whats being said and if its done secretly.

The Big Red Button

amtaxi wrote: »

If a teacher on facebook has 300 "friends" and 280 of these are children do you see anything wrong with this?[\Quote]

No, I would not necessarily see anything wrong with this at all. The way I would interpret this is that the teacher (sensibly) has a facebook account, separate from their personal account, to communicate with students. It's a good idea - they're staying on good terms with the students by accepting the friend requests, but are not compromising themselves by letting the students see too much personal information.

farmchoice

amtaxi wrote: »

Recently discovered that a member of staff in my childrens school is "Friends" with a large number of the children in school on facebook. They also communicate with the children via facebook.
Believing this is highly inappropriate (to put it mindly) I contacted the department of education and after much passing "from billy to jack" discovered that they have no policy regarding teachers communicating with children via social media or phone/text. - apparently it's up to each individual school what their policies are :eek:
I consider this to be a very serious child protection issue - have we learned nothing from our past mistakes.
How does everyone else feel about this?
Do you know what the policy is in your children's school?

It would only be a child protection issue if you had good reason to believe the teacher in question posed a threat to the children.

Do you have reason to believe such a thing? If you do go straight to the guards.
If you do not stop being so hysterical. You say in a later post that you were being fobbed off by the school and that was why you called the department. I can guess why they were fobbing you off, because the above post makes you come across as a complete crank.

Mind your own children and let others mind theirs.

amtaxi

farmchoice wrote: »

It would only be a child protection issue if you had good reason to believe the teacher in question posed a threat to the children.

Do you have reason to believe such a thing? If you do go straight to the guards.
If you do not stop being so hysterical. You say in a later post that you were being fobbed off by the school and that was why you called the department. I can guess why they were fobbing you off, because the above post makes you come across as a complete crank.

Mind your own children and let others mind theirs.

I am not a crank! As for minding my own children, thank you I do. As for "let others mind theirs" thankfully there are many people who in this country such as Barnardos who like me also care for ALL children, even if there not my own

Perhaps you should have a look at their website - or perhaps they are "Cranks" also.

Here's just a little piece

Child Abuse

All children deserve to grow up in an environment free from harm and abuse and for their childhood to be cherished and enjoyed. Children and young people are among the most vulnerable members of our society, and that is why it is a societal responsibility to ensure our laws, policies and services offer the best protection to insulate them from those who would exploit or harm them. However, unfortunately child abuse does occur and can take may forms including neglect, physical, emotional and sexual abuse.
Key Statistics

• There were 2,164 confirmed incidents of child abuse reported to HSE in 2008, this was an increase from 1,978 in 2007 and 1,797 in 2006.
• 80% of children are abused by someone known to them – abusers are fathers, mothers, male relatives or family friends or those in authority (i.e. teacher, coach, priest, etc)
• Over 3,500 crimes against children on average are being reported to gardaí every year, but less than a fifth of these are resulting in a court prosecution, and just one in ten of all cases have ended in a conviction to date.
• One in three women and one in four men reported some level of sexual abuse in childhood.
• Most sexual abuse in childhood and adolescence occurred in the prepubescent period, with two-thirds (67%) of abused girls and 62% of abused boys having experienced abuse by twelve years of age

If you don't care fine - but don't knock me or suggest that I'm being hysterical because I do.

byhookorbycrook

But the communication is written,so any parent can check and read.

amtaxi

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But the communication is written,so any parent can check and read.

Unless of course you have a young girl who is delighted with the attention and told to delete message so her parents don't see ....

but I suppose that would never happen.... afterall a child abuser would never try to convince a child that "it would be their secret" or anything like that....

It must be just me being hysterical...

byhookorbycrook

Children under 13 are not legally supposed to be on facbook. I'd imagine a child older than this would be on facebook in somewhere like the kitchen, as is advised by all the keeping children safe on the net seminars/lectures.

If you don't trust your child's teachers, the least of your worries would be the net, the school day would be of much greater concern.

CrazyRabbit

amtaxi wrote: »

Key Statistics

• There were 2,164 confirmed incidents of child abuse reported to HSE in 2008, this was an increase from 1,978 in 2007 and 1,797 in 2006.
• 80% of children are abused by someone known to them – abusers are fathers, mothers, male relatives or family friends or those in authority (i.e. teacher, coach, priest, etc)
• Over 3,500 crimes against children on average are being reported to gardaí every year, but less than a fifth of these are resulting in a court prosecution, and just one in ten of all cases have ended in a conviction to date.
• One in three women and one in four men reported some level of sexual abuse in childhood.
• Most sexual abuse in childhood and adolescence occurred in the prepubescent period, with two-thirds (67%) of abused girls and 62% of abused boys having experienced abuse by twelve years of age

For perspective, there are about 1.2 million children in Ireland.
2,164 cases = 0.018% of children. Of course, it's likely there are more case not reported, and even 1 case is 1 case too many. But just wanted to highlight how unfounded such fears about sexual abuse are. It is, thankfully, extremely rare according to the HSE statistics.

implausible

amtaxi wrote: »

80% of children are abused by someone known to them – abusers are fathers, mothers, male relatives or family friends or those in authority (i.e. teacher, coach, priest, etc)

And why is that? Simple - access. People known to the child have access, trust and opportunity. Why would a potential abuser, known to the child, use a public site like Facebook? From a child protection point of view, following this logic, children should not be friends with neighbours, cousins or uncles on Facebook. Children can also be abused by parents. Does this mean that parents shouldn't be friends with their kids on Facebook?

Children spend a huge amount of every day with teachers. They go on overnight trips, get kept in on detention and are trained in teams by them and yet, you consider Facebook to be a greater risk?

This calculation of risk makes no sense to me.

rainbowtrout

amtaxi wrote: »

Unless of course you have a young girl who is delighted with the attention and told to delete message so her parents don't see ....

but I suppose that would never happen.... afterall a child abuser would never try to convince a child that "it would be their secret" or anything like that....

It must be just me being hysterical...

Why do you keep focusing on the child abuse angle rather than the perhaps unprofessional approach of the teacher?

Being friends with 280 children your facebook page doesn't exactly make it a secret.

You've mentioned 'communication' on the facebook page several times. What exactly is the context of the communication? I'm not particularly interested in whether you think it's appropriate or not, but it would seem to me that if a teacher has a FB page with 280 students from their school on it, out of 300 people that the profile was specifically set up with a school related purpose in mind, but they probably haven't gone about it in the right way.

Surely I would imagine given the law of averages on the number of people have as facebook friends, that if this was the teacher's own personal facebook page that there would be a lot more adults on it??

LashingLady

I'm the mother of two small children, and also spent some time teaching in the VEC.

I can't believe the OP is being accused of overreacting. Teachers being friends with their students on Facebook is completely inappropriate and unprofessional. Some teachers have said it would broach on their own personal space, but it would also open themselves up to the risks that go with inappropriate contact with students.

There may not be a specific policy on Facebook within the Dept of Education but there is definiltey a policy around boundaries that would be applied here.

I would suggest to the OP that you speak to the principle of the school and let them know in no uncertain terms that you consider this wholly inappropriate. After that I would be speaking to the Board of Management which includes other parents.

Just out of curiousity, are there any parents of school age or younger children who think this is appropriate / ok / a matter for the teacher themselves? Before being accused of using the patronising "You wouldn't understand you dont' have children", in this case, you obviosuly don't understand.....

spurious

I would agree with LashingLady - it's completely unprofessional and inappropriate.

I have had students ask me to be friends on Facebook and have rejected them all. I do it to their face and explain why. Some of them take it quite badly, as if it is an actual rejection of them, so I have to be careful.

I have some past pupils as friends - all of them now aged over 35 or so.

CrazyRabbit

spurious wrote: »

I would agree with LashingLady - it's completely unprofessional and inappropriate.

I have had students ask me to be friends on Facebook and have rejected them all. I do it to their face and explain why. Some of them take it quite badly, as if it is an actual rejection of them, so I have to be careful.

I have some past pupils as friends - all of them now aged over 35 or so.

Are you a danger to your current students?

Caraville

Not a parent but I am a teacher. I would absolutely not be friends with any of my pupils on facebook. In fact when I got the job I'm in now, I was already friends with a few pupils on facebook through a mutual hobby. Lovely girls but I just sent them a message to say "look girls, because I'm going to be teaching in your school, I'm just going to unfriend ye for now". I wasn't even teaching those girls, they just happened to attend the school I'm in. They absolutely understood my position.

I did it for a few reasons, which are the same reasons I'm not friends with any of my pupils:
1. They're teenagers. No matter how much you get on with them, in the middle of chats with their friends, they may mention something they saw on my page. Plus they would have access to my photos, which I just wouldn't be comfortable with.
2. I don't particularly have any interest on being friends with teenage girls. Why any teacher would want to know what they get up to in great detail is beyond me (besides getting depressed at their use of bad spelling, grammar and general teenage ridiculousness). I'm already friends with some teenage cousins on facebook and the stuff they put up can be facepalm-inducing enough, why would I want to add to the volume of that type of crap?
3. Being friends with your students on facebook is leaving you wide open to all sorts of accusations and assumptions- as is clear from many of the comments here so far. I'm sure almost all teachers who are friends with their students on facebook are completely innocent of any wrongdoing, but at best you are a very naive teacher if you think that being friends with your students is professional behaviour.

In conclusion- I'm not friends with my students on facebook because it protects ME, not them.

byhookorbycrook

Here's an idea,have your child unfriend the teacher,sorted.

prettygurrly

i think people who are accusing the OP of over reacting are missing the point. the point is that schools dont have a policy over FB use and friendships between students and teachers. the teacher in question is probably perfectly fine but the problem is that no one knows for sure. during the school day students dont spend any completely alone time with students because it sets them up for accusations of wrong doing. I can't think of a single time when i was in a room with a teacher and the door was closed. as a volunteer with kids in homework group i was always told, leave the door open at all times...

however, facebook private chats dont give anyone the opportunity to "leave the door open". as someone rightly said, the teacher or whatever adult could just tell the student to delete the conversation after it's finished. it's sad that we are suspicious of everyone but that is the situation we're in after the last 80 years of institutional and church abuse.

if a teacher feels the need to post notes online, share videos etc. then there are sites out there that have been mentioned already, there's no need for FB.

Finally, parents can only monitor their kids so much. There's the FB app for smartphones, internet cafes etc. if you're kid really wants to be unmonitored then they can be. if your kid is 14, they're old enough to go down town, have a smart phone but also young enough to be duped into thinking that someone isn't grooming them.

this is an important issue and it's surprising that schools aren't more up to speed on protocol.

trihead

You should check that a group page hasn't been set up - group pages are different than personal pages. They are used for groups and communities of practice. If it is a personal page ( i would be surprised if it was) not a group page or page set up solely for school/ class stuff, simply unfriend as suggested.

As mentioned already by another poster if your child is under 13 ( you don't mention which level) he or she should not be on Facebook and this something that you as a parent need to sort.

prettygurrly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Here's an idea,have your child unfriend the teacher,sorted.

her child isn't a friend with the teacher, it came to OP's attention that the teacher was friends with lots of kids in the school. The OP is doing this for the greater good, not for the protection of her own kid as she's already taken care of that...

CWF

As a young teacher, 21 when I started last September, a number of last years Leaving Cert Students added me this year, they are graduated from the school however they are still friends with current students and for this reason I declined them. What are peoples views on adding/accepting friend requests from past pupils? Who have only left the school a few months?

prettygurrly

once you're not their teacher anymore and they're over 18 and a fully functioning adult then there's nothing wrong with it. however there is the complication of friends of friends...you can hide your page from the students with security settings so that they cant see comments you make or your photos...everyone in ireland is only 2 or 3 degrees separated, that's always going to be a problem for teachers.

i know some teachers who just dont have a FB page at all...just gets rid of complications!

CWF

you can hide your page from the students with security settings so that they cant see comments you make or your photos <-- Good point.

i know some teachers who just dont have a FB page at all...just gets rid of complications! <-- Not having a facebook page is definitely not the solution IMO. Why deprive yourself of it

rainbowtrout

prettygurrly wrote: »

her child isn't a friend with the teacher, it came to OP's attention that the teacher was friends with lots of kids in the school. The OP is doing this for the greater good, not for the protection of her own kid as she's already taken care of that...

That's fair enough, I think everyone here understands that but the OP hasn't clarified if this is the teacher's personal page or if it's a group page the teacher has set up for school purposes and is the moderator of it.

There are other resources available to them other than facebook, and if it is a group page for the school then it could have probably been approached in a different manner and set up in a different forum. The school could look into using moodle or similar.

What does annoy me is the following quote from the OP:

how would you feel if you child made contact with a teacher/paedophile on facebook and arranged to meet without your knowledge?

While I appreciate your concern OP, you've as good as labelled all teachers as paedophiles in one sentence, something I resent.

CWF wrote: »

As a young teacher, 21 when I started last September, a number of last years Leaving Cert Students added me this year, they are graduated from the school however they are still friends with current students and for this reason I declined them. What are peoples views on adding/accepting friend requests from past pupils? Who have only left the school a few months?

If they've left school and you are happy to add them there should be no problem. You can control your setting so none of their friends can see what you put up. What you will probably find though is that if you start accepting them you will get a stream of friend requests from their friends because they'll see 'Mary Murphy is now friends with CWF' in their newsfeed. I suppose the other thing you've got to ask yourself is 'do you need them as friends on your facebook'. I only add people I know and talk to. I am friends with a couple of past pupils because like you I was young starting in the school I work in, but I know some of these people outside school, but then again there are plenty I've rejected over the years, people I never taught or people I taught but wouldn't even say hello to me on the street. I don't want them on my FB page.

One other thing is, you can have all the settings you like but if you friend one of these people, there's nothing to stop their friends looking over their shoulder when they are looking at your page.

CWF wrote: »

you can hide your page from the students with security settings so that they cant see comments you make or your photos <-- Good point.

i know some teachers who just dont have a FB page at all...just gets rid of complications! <-- Not having a facebook page is definitely not the solution IMO. Why deprive yourself of it

Deprive is a bit of a strong word. There's more to life than facebook.

Orion

I'm on the verge of calling shenanigans on this one.

OP: friending a student, while possibly ill-advised, does not make you an abuser/paedophile. So unless you're making an allegation drop the rhetoric. (If you are making a specific allegation I'm deleting the whole thread ofc so this is a lose/lose on that that particular topic.)

You've been asked a couple of times - is this the teacher's personal page or a group page that the teacher maintains? Without you clarifying that basic question this conversation goes nowhere.

amtaxi

Firstly, let me clarify a few things

This was not an attack on a teacher - as I have already siad!! But to answer:-
Yes this is the teachers personal page, this person only has one facebook page.
This person has sent requests to children which is how it came to my attention.
The school in question is in the process of dealing with this situation and was not aware or did not authorise this persons actions.
I did not feel I needed to clarify this, as this was not the issue of my post, and I did not want to turn this into a teacher "bashing" thread.

My post was to hightlight the issue of the Department of Education not having any policies in place. This I found surprising because of my experience in sports and youth clubs where such policies are in place. My post was not to "bash" teachers in anyway. I have already stated that I know alot of brilliant teachers. My point was, as I have already said, that there is no way to recognise a child abuser, they could be your next door neighbour etc. Having child protection policies in place is to protect children - I am not offended by having to work within these policies and I do not see why anyone else should be.

I am surprised with the reaction to my post - especially the bad reaction from some who are obviously working in schools. I do believe that these policies should be in place for everyone that works with children not just teachers. But the fact is that all other areas I know of do have these policies in place - forogie, soccer clubs, GAA, swimming clubs, youth cafe, etc.

I do know that the vast majority of people who work with children do so because they enjoy it and would never cause any harm. One poster commented that there is only a small % of child abuse cases in this country - one is one too many, and if having these policies in place in schools prevents just one happening it is worth it. Surely preventing even just one childs life being damaged is more important than preventing someone feeling insulted by being prevented befriending a child on facebook or otherwise.

It seems to me that we can have our heads in the sand - afterall these things don't happen in Ireland - just in places like UK and USA.

For those who don't agree, fair enough. - I sincerely hope you never have to deal with the consequences of child abuse in your lifetime.

rainbowtrout

amtaxi wrote: »

Yes this is the teachers personal page, this person only has one facebook page.
This person has sent requests to children which is how it came to my attention.
The school in question is in the process of dealing with this situation and was not aware or did not authorise this persons actions.
I did not feel I needed to clarify this, as this was not the issue of my post, and I did not want to turn this into a teacher "bashing" thread.

While you may not have felt the need to clarify your post, this is an internet forum and you are asking people to give opinions on a situation where they don't know the full facts. A teacher setting up a school page and acting as moderator of that page for a school project is very different from a teacher requesting children as friends on their own personal page. Hence the questions from posters including myself.

Now that you have clarified that, it makes things a lot simpler. No the teacher should not have children she teaches as friends on her facebook page, and it is certainly more worrying that she's requesting them rather than the other way around.

amtaxi wrote: »

My post was to hightlight the issue of the Department of Education not having any policies in place. This I found surprising because of my experience in sports and youth clubs where such policies are in place. My post was not to "bash" teachers in anyway. I have already stated that I know alot of brilliant teachers. My point was, as I have already said, that there is no way to recognise a child abuser, they could be your next door neighbour etc. Having child protection policies in place is to protect children - I am not offended by having to work within these policies and I do not see why anyone else should be.

Each school has a certain amount of autonomy and therefore sets their own policies as laid down by the Board of Management of that school usually with input from staff, parents, students etc. It would be impossible to have a blanket policy, particularly when you consider the move in many schools to teaching through digitised resources such as iPads.


Putting teacher/paedophile in the same sentence is scaremongering. It tars all teachers with the same brush unfairly.

amtaxi wrote: »

I am surprised with the reaction to my post - especially the bad reaction from some who are obviously working in schools. I do believe that these policies should be in place for everyone that works with children not just teachers. But the fact is that all other areas I know of do have these policies in place - forogie, soccer clubs, GAA, swimming clubs, youth cafe, etc.

I do know that the vast majority of people who work with children do so because they enjoy it and would never cause any harm. One poster commented that there is only a small % of child abuse cases in this country - one is one too many, and if having these policies in place in schools prevents just one happening it is worth it. Surely preventing even just one childs life being damaged is more important than preventing someone feeling insulted by being prevented befriending a child on facebook or otherwise.

It seems to me that we can have our heads in the sand - afterall these things don't happen in Ireland - just in places like UK and USA.

For those who don't agree, fair enough. - I sincerely hope you never have to deal with the consequences of child abuse in your lifetime.

I think you'll find that people could only comment on the situation given the limited information you gave initially. Yes I do find it odd that a teacher feels the need to befriend 280 students in their school, and is proactively sending them friend requests from their personal page, yet I was not going to assume this was the case until you confirmed it. The page may have been a well intentioned group project , but clearly this is not the case and yes the issue does need to be raised and investigated with the school.

syklops

amtaxi wrote: »

Unless of course you have a young girl who is delighted with the attention and told to delete message so her parents don't see ....

but I suppose that would never happen.... afterall a child abuser would never try to convince a child that "it would be their secret" or anything like that....

It must be just me being hysterical...

You are being hysterical and this is the ridiculous part of your argument. A teacher has plenty of access to children in school. Why would a would be abuser risk being found out by sending messages on Facebook when he/she has physical access to the child in question? A would be abuser has 8+ hours during the day to 'groom' the child, plus afternoon activities etc.

An anonymous guy off the internet has nothing to lose and can be a bit more blase with what he/she writes to a child when they are starting to groom someone, but a teacher, even a paedophilic one would be very aware of the student retransmitting their message to one of all of their Friends. "Look what Mr Murphy said to me...". Where as in person the would be groomer can drop subtle hints, or suggestive words, and if the child takes it the 'wrong' way, he can retract it, or say "you misunderstood".

This is what I like about google plus, and facebook has started something similar, in that you can have circles. So you can post a picture of you with a pint in your hand on Friday night and show it to your friends and family, but your boss and AA sponsor dont see it as they are in different circles. Social media is very very new, and companies and organisations are just catching up.