Leap Card agents charging transaction fees

ScouseMouse

foggy_lad wrote: »

The latest from leap customer service is that the charge can be applied at the shopkeepers discretion and can be any amount they choose! What use are leap customer service? They don't process refunds, they can't protect customers from shopkeepers adding on charges to your top-ups.

Listen foggy, this has come up numerous times over the phone credit surcharge, and we have crossed swords before.

You can email them as much as you like, but they have no say in it.

I know this. Check out post number 18 above. It was me that lodged the complaint to the competition authority. I cc'd each email to payzone.

antoinolachtnai

You do not have to be in a dominant position to breach competition law. The discussion of market definition is not really relevant to the case. Dominance is extremely difficult to prove in practice partly because it is difficult to prove a market definition.

There is no market that is not 'protected' by competition law. Even the industries that are partly exempted by treaty (I am thinking of the transport industries) are effected to some extent by competition law.

The 'purpose' of national and European competition law is really to enforce Section 85 of the Treaty of Rome.

steve-o

If retailers can charge what they want, why isn't this an issue with lottery tickets, bus tickets, bin labels, etc?

ScouseMouse

steve-o wrote: »

If retailers can charge what they want, why isn't this an issue with lottery tickets, bus tickets, bin labels, etc?

Because lottery tickets are a set margin, with no phone line rental or maintenance bills for the retailer.

Bus tickets are the same.

Some shops do charge a fee for bin credit. If coke increases the price of a can by 5%, then the retail price will go up. Why not with credit. Whats the difference?

With payzone, the retailer pays for the phone line, and the machine rental, both to earn about 3%.

The problem with phone credit only arose when the phone companies increased the cost by about 6%, cutting the retailers wages substantially.

It costs about 35 euro a month to have the machine working. Thats a lot of credit and leap card you have to sell to cover it, never mind make a profit. Then you get the person who wants to pay by credit card which costs upto 4%.:mad:

There is only so low you can go before something becomes uneconomical.

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

Because lottery tickets are a set margin, with no phone line rental or maintenance bills for the retailer.

Bus tickets are the same.

Some shops do charge a fee for bin credit. If coke increases the price of a can by 5%, then the retail price will go up. Why not with credit. Whats the difference?

With payzone, the retailer pays for the phone line, and the machine rental, both to earn about 3%.

The problem with phone credit only arose when the phone companies increased the cost by about 6%, cutting the retailers wages substantially.

It costs about 35 euro a month to have the machine working. Thats a lot of credit and leap card you have to sell to cover it, never mind make a profit. Then you get the person who wants to pay by credit card which costs upto 4%.:mad:

There is only so low you can go before something becomes uneconomical.

Then why not just stop selling it instead of adding on surcharges and losing yourselves customers? I have never paid extra for mobile phone credit and have usually avoided the sort of shops where they charged extra. It will be the same for leapcards with customers ignoring the profiteers who try to hold people to ransom especially in a busy city centre shop.

Vahevala

superscouse wrote: »

Because lottery tickets are a set margin, with no phone line rental or maintenance bills for the retailer.

Bus tickets are the same.

Some shops do charge a fee for bin credit. If coke increases the price of a can by 5%, then the retail price will go up. Why not with credit. Whats the difference?

With payzone, the retailer pays for the phone line, and the machine rental, both to earn about 3%.

The problem with phone credit only arose when the phone companies increased the cost by about 6%, cutting the retailers wages substantially.

It costs about 35 euro a month to have the machine working. Thats a lot of credit and leap card you have to sell to cover it, never mind make a profit. Then you get the person who wants to pay by credit card which costs upto 4%.:mad:

There is only so low you can go before something becomes uneconomical.

So you are trying to imply you wouldn't have a phone line if it wasn't for this? Pull the other one.

Love to know what shop you run because I would avoid you like the plague. It is a recession and you are too busy trying to rip us all off.

ScouseMouse

Vahevala wrote: »

So you are trying to imply you wouldn't have a phone line if it wasn't for this? Pull the other one.

Love to know what shop you run because I would avoid you like the plague. It is a recession and you are too busy trying to rip us all off.

Payzone insisted on a dedicated phone line for their machine.

Oh, and dont be so aggresive, I dont rip people off. I was standing behind my counter on christmas day. Where were you?

Oh, another thing, I have four phone lines, four line rentals etc etc.

irbx

superscouse wrote: »

Payzone insisted on a dedicated phone line for their machine.

Oh, and dont be so aggresive, I dont rip people off. I was standing behind my counter on christmas day. Where were you?

Oh, another thing, I have four phone lines, four line rentals etc etc.

My former boss used to be charged fees that banks charge to lodge cash and even more to lodge coin with them. this was the case with bank of ireland bushiness cant remember the charge but was on per €100 lodged

ScouseMouse

irbx wrote: »

My former boss used to be charged fees that banks charge to lodge cash and even more to lodge coin with them. this was the case with bank of ireland bushiness cant remember the charge but was on per €100 lodged

I have a bill here for over 800 euro for physically putting the cash over the counter. This has to be factored into the selling price of everything a business sells.

I pay Ulster Bank 50c per 100 euro and this is a serious expense for any business.

the groutch

4 words:

Vote With Your Feet

Victor

Vahevala wrote: »

It is a recession and you are too busy trying to rip us all off.

That is quite unfair. Many shops are struggling and many more have closed, due to high rents and lower turnover.

Vahevala

Victor wrote: »

That is quite unfair. Many shops are struggling and many more have closed, due to high rents and lower turnover.

That isn't my problem. I was in a certain shop yesterday, I saw a sign at the till saying if I wanted to buy leap credit/bus ticket/luas ticket by debit or credit card, I can only do this, if I buy another item from the shop.

I won't be going to that newsagent in future. It is a recession, why should I have to pay extra for a service that is provided. That's why I gave up on prepaid mobile phone credit, why should I have to pay extra just because the shops want more money.

Go elsewhere and give another business your money who won't rip you off is my motto in life.

Victor

Vahevala wrote: »

That isn't my problem. I was in a certain shop yesterday, I saw a sign at the till saying if I wanted to buy leap credit/bus ticket/luas ticket by debit or credit card, I can only do this, if I buy another item from the shop.

I won't be going to that newsagent in future. It is a recession, why should I have to pay extra for a service that is provided.

The flip side, is why should a shop be forced to provide a service at a loss, it the credit card charges are more than the ticket commission?

Vahevala

Victor wrote: »

The flip side, is why should a shop be forced to provide a service at a loss, it the credit card charges are more than the ticket commission?

Then don't offer the service. Simple.

foggy_lad

Vahevala wrote: »

Then don't offer the service. Simple.

By telling people with signs that they must buy more than €XX.XX the shops are not offering the service to anyone who chooses to spend less, but really it should be all or nothing because I find more and more shops fail to tell customers of extra charges until they are rung up on the till or when the change is being handed back across the counter. This leads to undue pressure on customers to pay especially where there is a que and the shop assistant has poor English and you get the impression that arguing about the extra charge or looking to have the transaction cancelled would take more time than you had to spare.

AlekSmart

Vahevala wrote: »

That isn't my problem. I was in a certain shop yesterday, I saw a sign at the till saying if I wanted to buy leap credit/bus ticket/luas ticket by debit or credit card, I can only do this, if I buy another item from the shop.

I won't be going to that newsagent in future. It is a recession, why should I have to pay extra for a service that is provided. That's why I gave up on prepaid mobile phone credit, why should I have to pay extra just because the shops want more money.

Go elsewhere and give another business your money who won't rip you off is my motto in life.

Just to refocus this thread for a tic......

Does anybody see how this development represents a HUGE problem for the ITS project as a whole ?

The Leapcard top-up purchased via the approved Payzone method,IS a transaction in it's own right.
If an individual retailer is now suggesting otherwise then Leapcard has a HUGE problem.

Remember Leapcard is not a bar of chocolate or an ice-lolly,it is the fruition of over a decade of planning and (mis)management which was conducted at the highest level of Irish Public Administration.

ITS has been promoted as one of the largest such projects ever undertaken in this State,and it is still being referenced as a system which will revolutionize how we use Public Transport.

This "Skimming" has at a stroke reduced the public standing of Leapcard and is now yet another negative to be added to the already long list.

As of now,it's becoming very difficult to convince ANY potential Leapcard user to move from cash transactions as they read and hear of this litany of incompetence,greed and downright negligent implimentation.

10+ years and €40 Million for this....:o

antoinolachtnai

First of all, retailers are not skimming. Retailers expect to get paid for their effort and capital, the same as everybody else involved in moving passengers from A to B. Commissions are pretty low as it is. When the system is used to sell products, the commission will be so low as to be unworkable.

I always thought it was always a mistake to focus on retail counters as the main channel for collecting money and selling products. With a bit of imagination, lower cost alternatives could still be found.

But this is hardly a fatal flaw. There are bigger issues, for example that I now have to queue twice to pay twice for a bus ticket now, once in the shop and again when I get on the bus.

BrianD

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

First of all, retailers are not skimming. Retailers expect to get paid for their effort and capital, the same as everybody else involved in moving passengers from A to B. Commissions are pretty low as it is. When the system is used to sell products, the commission will be so low as to be unworkable.

I always thought it was always a mistake to focus on retail counters as the main channel for collecting money and selling products. With a bit of imagination, lower cost alternatives could still be found.

But this is hardly a fatal flaw. There are bigger issues, for example that I now have to queue twice to pay twice for a bus ticket now, once in the shop and again when I get on the bus.

But is it not incremental revenue for the retailers?

Up to now, no revenue from LEAP cards. Now people are topping up and they are getting a cut. So far as I know they are using existing service providers with new readers.

I was only an occasional DB and LUAS cash customer. Now I have a LEAP and use both services more often and am topping up. Revenue the retailer would have never got before.

AlekSmart

BrianD wrote: »

But is it not incremental revenue for the retailers?

Up to now, no revenue from LEAP cards. Now people are topping up and they are getting a cut. So far as I know they are using existing service providers with new readers.

I was only an occasional DB and LUAS cash customer. Now I have a LEAP and use both services more often and am topping up. Revenue the retailer would have never got before.

Spot on BrianD,and you are a shining example of what the I.T.S scheme NEEDS to be actively promoting if it's to succeed.

I would differ with Antoin on this as I see no other aspect to this additional charge except a retailer skimming a few more cent per transaction over and above whatever arrangement has been put in place with Leapcard.

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the retailers actions,the issue remains one of negative perception relating to Leapcard usability.

The system is already creaking when it should be streaking ahead by focusing on the ability to have simpler,faster and cheaper use of Public Transport...this latest nonsense only adds to the perception of a scheme which requires urgent remedial attention.

antoinolachtnai

Whatever about incremental revenue, The problem is there is little or no incremental contribution to profit for most retailers from selling a top-up at the recommended price.

The only benefit is that it might bring consumers into the shop and they might buy something else at a higher margin.

It isn't too bad with top-ups but product sales will take considerably longer to process.

You are quite right that this causes problems for the reputation and understanding of the system. But this must always have been anticipated.

I agree that the BrianD scenario is a good one, but it seems that DB is benefitting massively from this new activity (it gets 95 percent of the revenue and has absolutely no extra costs) whilst the retailer is getting a small percentage of the revenue but has to absorb significant costs.

The obvious solution to my mind would be for DB to use the benefits of the system to cut its costs and return the benefit to the retailers at the front line.

AlekSmart

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The only benefit is that it might bring consumers into the shop and they might buy something else at a higher margin.

It isn't too bad with top-ups but product sales will take considerably longer to process.

You are quite right that this causes problems for the reputation and understanding of the system. But this must always have been anticipated.

I agree that the BrianD scenario is a good one, but it seems that DB is benefitting massively from this new activity (it gets 95 percent of the revenue and has absolutely no extra costs) whilst the retailer is getting a small percentage of the revenue but has to absorb significant costs.

The obvious solution to my mind would be for DB to use the benefits of the system to cut its costs and return the benefit to the retailers at the front line.

I'm not sure,Antoin,that the ITS people anticipated anything in relation to Leapcard's roll-out.

From what I can deduce,from both an Operator and Users perspective,the roll-out of Leapcard has been undertaken on a somewhat frighteningly hit-n-miss basis.

I would have focused initially on having at least two high profile LeapCard specific locations in Dublin City Centre and a number of mobile Leapcard outlets on Tour to the various Shopping Centres.

There are plans for such Leapcard "Outlets",but I feel not having them operational from Day 1 served only to detract from the big-message of what Leapcard is about.

I am also quite taken by the low uptake of Leapcard,which appears to have flatlined after the initial bump.

Also,I'm interested in the 95% revenue figure,as this is the first mention of an actual hard-number I've come across.

antoinolachtnai

I think I know what the numbers are for commissions but I am not certain and if I were I would not be in a position to repeat them. I think the retailer commission has been reported elsewhere but I am not certain.

Certainly, the commissions that reach the retailersare not big. They are certainly a great deal less than the lotto commission (which I think is 5.7 percent and that is a matter of public record).

If you work it out from the time that it takes to take money from a passenger on a bus, you will see that the retailer is at these rates collecting money for a lot less than what a Dublin Bus driver can collect it for. You can also work out that there is a very real cost to retailers in terms of employment costs and rent costs. A transaction that takes 30 seconds costs at least 10c in employee time, and that's without taking into account all the time the employee is standing around waiting for a sale to happen. A 10 euro sale entails a 5c cash handling charge. Then there are all the other overheads. But it's still cheaper than accepting money on a bus.

You will get that flatline effect because there is no promotional campaign and not even a media partner. Exactly the same thing happened with the Luas smartcard. The offer was basically good and the system was well designed and convenient but the uptake was very low and the growth certainly flatlined.

The shop idea is not a cheap thing to do, though I agree it would be a good idea. To give you an idea, Vodafone is reported to spend 50 or 60 euro per contract on its shops, to keep them looking good and well staffed.

There are problems with the product too. The DB boarding problem is the biggest one. There will also be issues with fare capping and so on.

I would not be all negative though. Leap has gotten through a lot of bureaucratic hurdles and it is a big advance. What BrianD says really is true, it does make public transport in Dublin much more convenient, for all it's faults.

What is really needed now is to start planning toward Leap Card 2.0, with clarified objectives and with the passenger, rather than the operators at the heart of the system. There is a good team at the heart of the system and they need encouragement and support as well as criticism. Ultimately the system also needs more investment.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You will get that flatline effect because there is no promotional campaign and not even a media partner. Exactly the same thing happened with the Luas smartcard. The offer was basically good and the system was well designed and convenient but the uptake was very low and the growth certainly flatlined.

I think there were 70,000 Leap cards and about 30,000 Irish Rail ones. I imagien it will always take a step change in functionality to get a step change in the number of users.

The shop idea is not a cheap thing to do, though I agree it would be a good idea. To give you an idea, Vodafone is reported to spend 50 or 60 euro per contract on its shops, to keep them looking good and well staffed.

I think any such idea should be NTA coordinated, operator funded, but (participating) operator neutral. It would be good to have maybe a dozen travel desks (it need not be a particularly big set-up) located across Dublin - e.g. Swords, Airport, Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, Tallaght, Dundrum, Dún Laoghaire, Bray, the main train stations and a few other city locations.

antoinolachtnai

Actually I think a change in Pricing policy is more important. The functionality is mostly fine. It's the lack of joined up tariffs that are stupid.

However the marketing and promotion is also critical. Getting a million cards into use is going to cost 5 or 10 million whatever way you do it.

Transport information desks would be very different from leap card booths. That is a much more general function. I think it would be much more realistic and practical to do this via telephone and Internet.

Even a 'simple setup' would cost 250k per location between rent, training and all the rest of it. There are a lot of hours to cover. For the same cost you could lay on an extra local service in that area.

The point is well made that there should be high quality transport information available in some form at ports and stations.

There is no such thing as 'operator funded' in public transport. Either the passengers pay for something, or else the taxpayer pays. There is really nobody else.

bk

On top of everything else, a lot of mistakes have been made on the means of topping up Leap Cards, from day one we should have had:

1) The ability to top up via Irish Rail Ticket Machines.
2) via Irish Rail ticket offices, specially including really obvious ones like Heuston, Connolly, Tara and Pearse.
3) Automated top-ups should have been enabled from day one.
4) The Dublin Bus office on O'Connell St should have floor to ceiling posters in the window promoting it as a Leap Retailer. Despite being the number one Leap retailer, you would barely know it, it has a tiny Leap on Sale here sign.
5) Leap should be available from the tourist offices around Dublin and the CIE info desks at the Airport, etc.
6) There should really be a few automated top-up machines like the LUAS machines at a few busy bus locations, like O'Connell Street, Grafton St, etc.

Had they done all of the above from the start, then this would be far less of a problem.

From what I've seen, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus seem to really dislike Leap and seem to be doing absolutely the minimum to promote it and make it successful.

Bajingo

BlueCam wrote: »

Is anyone aware of Leap Card agents charging fees for topping up and whether they're actually allowed to do this by Leap/Payzone?

I was catching a Dart at Pearse Station today and hadn't realised my card was out of credit. Was advised by the ticket office at Pearse to go down the road to Centra on Westland Row because, of course, it's impossible to top up a Leap Card at a Dart station... Asked for a €10 top up at Centra only to be told that there was a 25c transaction fee on Leap top-ups, regardless of the amount you top up by. Of course, given that I had to take the Dart, I had no option but to pay it.

It really sickens me that they're taking advantage like this - obviously Pearse Station sends anyone with a Leap Card down their way and there's no way of avoiding the fee unless you want to run over to somewhere on Nassau Street.

(On a side note.. why couldn't they install some of the small Leap Card top-up machines that they have in shops in ticket offices at IE stations until they sort out the automatic ticket machines? Surely this would be a very simple stop-gap measure?)

I topped up in that Centra the other day, didn't get any extra charge.

lucernarian

Would just like to add, I remember from some months ago that Centra on Westland Row had a €5 minimum transaction amount for laser card use and there was a 25 cent surcharge on use below that amount. Earlier on in the thread, a minimum of €10 is mentioned but I doubt that's the case.

Victor

It seems that NTA insists that cash payments for Leap are not surcharged, but they have less control on credit card payments being surcharged.

Story today http://www.independent.ie/national-news/commuter-anger-as-shop-slaps-25c-levy-on-leap-cards-3054770.html - I wonder if it was inspired by this thread?

cson

The elephant in the room for this is the fact that the ****ing thing can't be topped up online which is madness.

At a stroke you'd remove a huge amount of the ambiguity surrounding surcharges etc.

foggy_lad

A couple of machines in each railway station that allow passengers top up using their credit cards would be the way to go! Maybe the stored E-Voting machines could be adapted to meet the need?