New Developments at Crufts

Cherry Blossom

On day one two dogs who were BOB in their respective breeds were disqualified from entering their respective groups for having over-exaggerated features. The two breeds were not represented in the groups as a result. The reasoning was to encourage judges to take health into account and it's a wake-up call that this needs to be taken seriously and everyone involved in the breeds needs to sit up and take notice.

Personally I think this is a brilliant development and hopefully the beginning of things starting to take a real change for the better.

The dogs were a pekingese and a bulldog.

http://www.crufts.org.uk/news/bulldog-and-pekingese-fail-crufts-vet-checks

Thoughts?

Bullseye1

Good news indeed.

Cherry Blossom

It will interesting to see how the breeds still to come fare.

DBB

Definitely a step in the right direction, and I can only assume they've set out to make some examples?
It'll be a slow enough process though... the fact that these dogs got as far as BoB indicates where the judges are in this process at this time! For instance, the breed standard for the Bulldog, if I remember correctly, was changed a couple of years ago from "massive" head, to "large" head... yet even though they knew these veterinary inspections were going to happen, judges still saw fit to put dog(s) through to BoB level that did not conform to this new standard.
Similarly, and I've posted this before, the GSD that made it through to BoB last year was an abomination, despite the outcry about the breed a year or two beforehand as a result of Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I can't help but get the feeling that judges, and consequently breeders, were giving the fingers to the world.
However, these new measures, if consistently applied (or applied after Crufts 2012 is over), should put a stop to the vested interests keeping the breeds in the same deformed shapes for the sake of winning a trophy. Many breeders interviewed on Jemima's Pedigree Dogs Exposed show were in utter denial about the part they're playing in the genetic abominations many breeds have become. These measures will, I hope, force them to change their views.
I'll be watching developments with interest, but this has got to be a step in the right direction.

Cherry Blossom

DBB wrote: »

Definitely a step in the right direction, and I can only assume they've set out to make some examples?
It'll be a slow enough process though... the fact that these dogs got as far as BoB indicates where the judges are in this process at this time!

Yep, it's the influential few in high places that have meant limited progress up to this point, however they got to arrive in such positions I don't know. It's very likely that some of the judges haven't a clue how to identify a dog with x or y problem without it being written down somewhere. There's probably those that it just goes completely over their heads whether that's down to arrogance or limited capacity to understand health issues properly. It should have a fairly big impact on the breed clubs and breeders when it comes to stud dogs, even those that don't test their bitches are not going to use studs that might produce pups that will be disqualified.

At the end of the day forcing the hand of the judges will in turn encourage better and more strictly enforced codes of ethics for the breed clubs meaning individual breeders have no choice but to comply. The number of people who have told me they 'have to' do this or that gives the distinct impression that there are still a lot of breeders out there testing only because the breed club will come down on them like a ton of bricks otherwise. I guess it's an advantage that they put it like this and are fairly vocal in their complaining, helps separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak .

andreac

Just on my phone but I think its great, although maybe these health checks should have been done before they came to crufts.

TooManyDogs

andreac wrote: »

Just on my phone but I think its great, although maybe these health checks should have been done before they came to crufts.

I think the checks being done at crufts is a good thing. With the whole world watching those dogs being disqualified it will get the message through to all breeders quicker and make them realise the KC are serious

planetX

It's good news. But since they already got best of breed I guess they'll be producing plenty of offspring... at high prices. Shame.

padraig.od

planetX wrote: »

It's good news. But since they already got best of breed I guess they'll be producing plenty of offspring... at high prices. Shame.

No, they don't get a BOB certificate. Would you buy the (expensive) offspring of a dog deemed too unhealthy to win at Crufts...?

planetX

padraig.od wrote: »

No, they don't get a BOB certificate. Would you buy the (expensive) offspring of a dog deemed too unhealthy to win at Crufts...?

I wouldn't, but I can guarantee there's a waiting list of people who will:mad:

are you serious

With these developments at Crufts this is what will happen...
(well what I think is going to happen)

The "best of breed" dog/bitch who now by the new rules/standards at Crufts is now not the best of breed..

This dog/bitch will now be bred with a dog/bitch who is not quite as good as the old rules/standards for best of breed would be...

This then mating creates a pup that by the old rules/standards would not be good enough but with new rules/standards it will be good enough...

Therefore that dog/bitch who is now deemed not good enough will still be used for breeding...

Next year or the year after it will no longer be used, but until then. . .

kylith

garkane wrote: »

With these developments at Crufts this is what will happen...
(well what I think is going to happen)

The "best of breed" dog/bitch who now by the new rules/standards at Crufts is now not the best of breed..

This dog/bitch will now be bred with a dog/bitch who is not quite as good as the old rules/standards for best of breed would be...

This then mating creates a pup that by the old rules/standards would not be good enough but with new rules/standards it will be good enough...

Therefore that dog/bitch who is now deemed not good enough will still be used for breeding...

Next year or the year after it will no longer be used, but until then. . .

I disagree. The dogs that make it to Crufts are far from 'not good enough', the difference between Best and Reserve may be a matter of a centimetre of height or a couple of degrees of leg, indeed choice of best of breed may well differ from jusdge to judge. What we will start to see now is Best of Breeds who are also healthy, which can only be a good thing. It's a poor look-out for a breed if the best of them is diseased.

Wibbs

This is very good news though remarkably long in coming. The non Crufts dogs in the street could see many breeds were becoming walking genetic and functional disasters. Even with these measures where's the line drawn? EG even a "healthy" British Bulldog is stiff legged, overly stocky with an excessively flat face and nothing like the working dog it used to be.

planetX wrote: »

I wouldn't, but I can guarantee there's a waiting list of people who will:mad:

That would be my concern too. Some doggie people breeders and buyers are hellbent on wanting the fashionable mutant look. It's gonna take a long time to change that I suspect.

are you serious

kylith wrote: »

I disagree. The dogs that make it to Crufts are far from 'not good enough', the difference between Best and Reserve may be a matter of a centimetre of height or a couple of degrees of leg, indeed choice of best of breed may well differ from jusdge to judge. What we will start to see now is Best of Breeds who are also healthy, which can only be a good thing. It's a poor look-out for a breed if the best of them is diseased.

KYLITH this is a direct quote from the link on the Crufts page and nowhere does it say that the dogs were diseased....
“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”

I know full well why certain dogs win at shows and some dogs dont. It is almost always the Judges preference and not which dog meets the breed standards..

As you said the difference between BOB and Reserve is maybe height or angulation..

Does this not only back up my thought that the almost best will be bred with the (old) best creating a new best... ?

Bullseye1

Was there any mention of the King Charles? On that recent BBC series the breeder of a BiB neither confirmed nor denied her dog had the brain abnormality. It appeared the whole King Charles club was in denial apart from that one courageous woman.

Bullseye1

Couldn't the dog insurance companies take a stronger lead in in this by insisting that dogs are tested before they breed them. At the end of the day it is they who will be forking out the millions in vets fees.

DamagedTrax

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Was there any mention of the King Charles? On that recent BBC series the breeder of a BiB neither confirmed nor denied her dog had the brain abnormality. It appeared the whole King Charles club was in denial apart from that one courageous woman.

the king charles club now have a health officer in place that is in total support of your woman and they seem to be making a bit of a difference.

that BiB woman didnt need to confirm or deny about her dog as the medical proof was already available. she just ended up looking a twat on tv

Bullseye1

I also thought the women importing the healthy strain of Dalmations was also courageous. The pedigree dog breeders need more of these people.

DamagedTrax

the KC standards are a joke in most breeds.

seriously, which looks the healthier more resiliant dog to you

this kc type



or this



i certainly know which i'd be going for yet the second dog falls well outside of 'breed standard' because it doesnt carry a massive head, extra weight and isnt stumpy (14" - 16" is stupidly small for the weight they're expected to carry at show)

they talk about breeding for purpose yet the purpose is completely bred out of the staffy. i know its pointless as bull baiting and fighting are illegal but if you're gonna claim you're breeding for purpose then at least make some sort of attempt to do it.

... and as for the poor german shepard

Bullseye1

They look completely different. One looks like a power lifter on steroids and the other looks like a Navy Seal.

It's a similar comparison between the British Bulldog and the American Bulldog. If you look at photographs from the late 1800's and early 1900's the British Bulldog looks more like the American version does now. It's bizarre.

DamagedTrax

thankfully there are people breeding back to older standards now with the stafford. most people i walk with would have the larger, leaner dogs.

the british bulldog is a disaster. i adore the american bulldog, it looks like it does the job and those guys own the weight pulling world.

kylith

garkane wrote: »

KYLITH this is a direct quote from the link on the Crufts page and nowhere does it say that the dogs were diseased....
“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”

I know full well why certain dogs win at shows and some dogs dont. It is almost always the Judges preference and not which dog meets the breed standards..

As you said the difference between BOB and Reserve is maybe height or angulation..

Does this not only back up my thought that the almost best will be bred with the (old) best creating a new best... ?

In my opinion a dog who's out by a couple of degrees but can breathe is better than a dog who is spot on in angulation, but can't breathe. This is what the judges must learn to look for. If the judge chose a dog who got disqualified as BoB then they chose the wrong dog.

DamagedTrax

+1

if a dog is medically affected/afflicted it shouldnt be best of anything.

Discodog

The Kennel Club has been forced to act. Many of the breed clubs totally oppose the KC. Breeders are making a fortune out of the desire for "extreme" dogs. The buying public won't change until there is social pressure - in other words when owning a mutant is socially unacceptable.

I think that the first report that questioned the KC breed standards was around 1969. Nothing changed until PDE - has there ever been a case of a program having such an impact ? After the first PDE the attitude in the KC & Breed clubs was that all the fuss would die down. There is a lot of criticism of Pedigree when it comes to their dogfood but they should be recognised for dropping Crufts.

My view is that Crufts is still a freak show & at the current rate it will take many years to change. During that time thousands of dogs will suffer needlessly. The KC should of made a real statement & put a moratorium on all shows, including Crufts, whilst this mess was being sorted out. A vet should thoroughly examine every entrant to any show. If in his opinion the animal is suffering or impaired due to breeding then the breeder should be prosecuted.

We are told that the vast majority of breeders are "responsible" yet they are not responsible enough to speak out en mass. Why don't they form their own association & run their own shows ? If they are not in it for the money why don't the breeders abandon "championship" style KC pedigrees & introduce a health pedigree instead ?

**Vai**

Bout bloody time. Now hopefully they will do something about the GSD.

Knine

The Clumber Spaniel didn't past its vet check either today. However it has had the specialist tests done -

HEALTH TESTS:
-HD-A/A, Elbows-0/0, Patellas – free, Eyes – clear, PDP1 - clear

I think they are leaving themselves open to lawsuits. Its going to be an interesting few days judging with GSD's, Bassets still to go. They have earmarked 15 breeds

ISDW

Knine wrote: »

The Clumber Spaniel didn't past its vet check either today. However it has had the specialist tests done -

HEALTH TESTS:
-HD-A/A, Elbows-0/0, Patellas – free, Eyes – clear, PDP1 - clear

I think they are leaving themselves open to lawsuits. Its going to be an interesting few days judging with GSD's, Bassets still to go. They have earmarked 15 breeds

I believe the Clumber has conjunctivitis, which is why it failed.

I think its brilliant that they are withholding the BoB, but how on earth did these dogs get to this position in the first place? And they still get the CC.

Knine

I just seen a copy of the vet cert on facebook. The dog had entropian which causes conjunctivitis, also canker of the ear was mentioned. I don't know how the judge didnt spot that as Ive seen dogs with this condition and its not something you can hide.

FoxyVixen

It's great that the KC is taken on board the health of the dogs, it's about bloody time in all honesty. But why are they going about it backwards??

Brilliant that those dogs didn't get to participate in BoB.
However they still won in their respective classes, thereby implying that it's still acceptable to breed to that standard of genetic defect for want of a better term.

Why weren't they vet checked before said classes and denied permission to participate? Smells a bit fishy to me. Looks more like they're trying to hush critics a bit. Interesting to see how the GSD fairs.

TooManyDogs

FoxyVixen wrote: »

It's great that the KC is taken on board the health of the dogs, it's about bloody time in all honesty. But why are they going about it backwards??

Brilliant that those dogs didn't get to participate in BoB.
However they still won in their respective classes, thereby implying that it's still acceptable to breed to that standard of genetic defect for want of a better term.

Why weren't they vet checked before said classes and denied permission to participate? Smells a bit fishy to me. Looks more like they're trying to hush critics a bit. Interesting to see how the GSD fairs.

We were talking about that earlier, the only conclusion we came to was that 1 vet could check 15 dogs but how many vets would be needed to check every dog going into the classes associated with each of the 15 breeds? It could simply be a logistical decision

ABajaninCork

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I also thought the women importing the healthy strain of Dalmations was also courageous. The pedigree dog breeders need more of these people.

Do you mean the lady who cross bred a Dalmatian with a Pointer? The dog is called Fiona and competed at Crufts last year. Don't know if she made it through again though.

I wish they would extend the vet checks to ALL BoB's TBH.