New Developments at Crufts

Discodog

getz wrote: »

it seems we may be looking at the wrong reason for the bulldog being rejected,

I agree. The Bulldog is another breed where there should be a moratorium on breeding/showing until their health can be significantly improved. Many Vets will argue that this is impossible without extending the snout. No dog should be allowed in any show if it has any health problems or is likely to pass on any health defects to it's offspring. Also, lets have a social conscious & allow neutered dogs to compete.

getz

Discodog wrote: »

I agree. The Bulldog is another breed where there should be a moratorium on breeding/showing until their health can be significantly improved. Many Vets will argue that this is impossible without extending the snout. No dog should be allowed in any show if it has any health problems or is likely to pass on any health defects to it's offspring. Also, lets have a social conscious & allow neutered dogs to compete.

you can only show your dog to the set std,if the std needs to change do it,then the breeders know what is needed,40 +years ago i had a top staffie he was out of [the then] standard by one inch,17in high,as luck would have it,his breeders alf&karen [alpaka] had been asked to update the std ,so my dog[champion alpaka red hot rod] went on to win many a show,alf is dead now but karen is a top judge at crufts,so its all about std std

dodderangler

Don't even like watching that anymore its always the fluffy dogs that win
What bout the proper real dogs like German pointers or pit bulls or boxers
Proper working class dogs

borderlinemeath

dodderangler wrote: »

Don't even like watching that anymore its always the fluffy dogs that win
What bout the proper real dogs like German pointers or pit bulls or boxers
Proper working class dogs

Working class dogs?

They didn't have a group for that at crufts:D

dodderangler

borderlinemeath wrote: »

dodderangler wrote: »

Don't even like watching that anymore its always the fluffy dogs that win
What bout the proper real dogs like German pointers or pit bulls or boxers
Proper working class dogs

Working class dogs?

They didn't have a group for that at crufts:D

You know what I mean like good dogs
Was watching it and some tiny dog came out with what I can only describe as hair extensions attached to it and won was ridiculous
The likes of my dog( Akita ) would never win it yet some dog that looks like there should be batteries in it wins

borderlinemeath

dodderangler wrote: »

You know what I mean like good dogs
Was watching it and some tiny dog came out with what I can only describe as hair extensions attached to it and won was ridiculous
The likes of my dog( Akita ) would never win it yet some dog that looks like there should be batteries in it wins

Everybody has an opinion on breeds of dog. It doesn't mean that you should degrade the smaller dogs. I've never had a dog smaller than medium sized but I still appreciate the smaller ones nonetheless.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the lhasa apso that won or the pomeranian that won the toy group. Incidentally the pomeranian is from the spitz group of dogs. Just like your akita.

andreac

Whats ridiculous about it?
Do you not know what way Crufts works? Each dog is being judged to the standard of the breed, so they are looking for a dog thats as close to the breed standard as possible, so i dont get your point of it being ridiculous, it makes no sense.

If you have watched Crufts over the years you would see that dogs of all breeds, shapes and sizes have won. It all depends on what is in for Best in Show.

The Llasa Apso that won BIS was amazing, same as the Pomeranian that was there against it. The Newfie got Reserve and thats a big working dog so im not sure what your point is really?

The AKita did well last year too, im nearly sure it won the Group and was in for Best in Show.

The Flat Coated Retriever won last year and thats a working dog, the Hungarian Visla won it in 2010, the Standard Schnauzer in 2008, do you want me to keep going?

Do you know much about Crufts at all? Did you see all the dogs that won Best of Breed and that were in their respective groups each day?

getz

the plot thickens,it seems that the vet did not disqualify the bully ,it was someone from the KC,all the vet did was to pass on information that the dog had a old eye injury,someone on the committee decided it must be a eye disease, its also been pointed out that the vet was in serious breach of the KC rules in bringing into the ring a torch and other medical instruments,everyone is pointing the finger

dodderangler

No I don't watch it I watched it this year but in my opinion dogs should be what dogs are not these toy dogs I wouldn't and still don't class them as dogs and there are plenty of people that would agree with me but that's my opinion

andreac

Sorry, but just because you dont like small dogs, doesnt make them any less of a dog than a bigger one.
Dogs come in all shapes, sizes, colour, coat etc.

The Lhasa is actually one of the oldest breeds of dogs that was bred to alert the monks in the Monasteries in Tibet, so a far cry from a lap dog or toy dog as you put it.

Whispered

I'm a bigger dog lover myself so I understand where you're coming from dodder- but the smallies were usually bred for ratting or similar and can be fierce little things. And they pack a lot of personality into those little bodies!

I think the way the dog is brought up has to lot to do if it's a "doggy" dog or not. I mean what hope does a dog have if it's treated like a baby all its life. There are loads of bigger dogs who are prissy and "precious" and a lot of smallies who would put my two boys to shame with their tenacity and energy.

Delighted to see these new developments - I hope the relevant KC's support it.

dodderangler

Whispered wrote: »

I'm a bigger dog lover myself so I understand where you're coming from dodder- but the smallies were usually bred for ratting or similar and can be fierce little things. And they pack a lot of personality into those little bodies!

I think the way the dog is brought up has to lot to do if it's a "doggy" dog or not. I mean what hope does a dog have if it's treated like a baby all its life. There are loads of bigger dogs who are prissy and "precious" and a lot of smallies who would put my two boys to shame with their tenacity and energy.

Delighted to see these new developments - I hope the relevant KC's support it.

Don't get me wrong one of my favourite dogs is a little jack Russel excellent for rabbits and rats suppose if it's treated like a baby it'll become soft I just can't see a Maltese being a dog of any use at all
I've always just had a dog that was used for hunting or guardin like a dog with a job than a toy

Whispered

It depends on what you mean by use - apparently they (Maltese) were bred as toy dogs but also as mousers. For a lot of people the company is enough of a use. My two are no use for anything but playing and cuddles and they're not toy breeds.

borderlinemeath

dodderangler wrote: »

No I don't watch it I watched it this year but in my opinion dogs should be what dogs are not these toy dogs I wouldn't and still don't class them as dogs and there are plenty of people that would agree with me but that's my opinion

Still don't class them as dogs?:eek: You're on the wrong forum with statements like that.

My OHs aunt and uncle have 4 dogs. A collie mix, a staffie mix and two pomeranians. When you approach the house - before you've even got to the door the poms are going crazy barking and alerting the whole house that there's somebody coming. The staffie and the collie barely move from the mat at the front of the fire.

Some of the smaller dogs are fiercely territorial and can inflict damage if necessary so size isn't everything.

Evac101

Off topic but the only time I've ever been bitten by dogs have been by the 'small' breeds ... and once by a stoned Lassie type collie (which I blame his equally stoned owner for).

dodderangler

borderlinemeath wrote: »

dodderangler wrote: »

No I don't watch it I watched it this year but in my opinion dogs should be what dogs are not these toy dogs I wouldn't and still don't class them as dogs and there are plenty of people that would agree with me but that's my opinion

Still don't class them as dogs?:eek: You're on the wrong forum with statements like that.

My OHs aunt and uncle have 4 dogs. A collie mix, a staffie mix and two pomeranians. When you approach the house - before you've even got to the door the poms are going crazy barking and alerting the whole house that there's somebody coming. The staffie and the collie barely move from the mat at the front of the fire.

Some of the smaller dogs are fiercely territorial and can inflict damage if necessary so size isn't everything.

Well if I was bein attacked by someone I'd rather have my Akita there than a ankle biter lets be honest

Discodog

getz wrote: »

you can only show your dog to the set std,if the std needs to change do it,then the breeders know what is needed,40 +years ago i had a top staffie he was out of [the then] standard by one inch,17in high,as luck would have it,his breeders alf&karen [alpaka] had been asked to update the std ,so my dog[champion alpaka red hot rod] went on to win many a show,alf is dead now but karen is a top judge at crufts,so its all about std std

The Breed Standard is one aspect of the problem. It is baffling as to why the Breed Clubs & the KC prioritised breeding to produce exaggerated features & such huge health problems.

The other aspect is the non regulation of breeding & screening prior to breeding. This is the prime cause in cases like the Cavalier.

If we accept that the majority of exhibitors, breeders & clubs are dog lovers then how did they manage to put health at the bottom of the list ?

DamagedTrax

Discodog wrote: »

The Breed Standard is one aspect of the problem. It is baffling as to why the Breed Clubs & the KC prioritised breeding to produce exaggerated features & such huge health problems.

The other aspect is the non regulation of breeding & screening prior to breeding. This is the prime cause in cases like the Cavalier.

If we accept that the majority of exhibitors, breeders & clubs are dog lovers then how did they manage to put health at the bottom of the list ?

exactly. a dog should healthy and fit a purpose... if it looks nice all the better!

but number 1 priority should be health, then fit for purpose and then looks.

getz

DamagedTrax wrote: »

exactly. a dog should healthy and fit a purpose... if it looks nice all the better!

but number 1 priority should be health, then fit for purpose and then looks.

the dog that is fit for the purpose [ the show ring ones] has long gone ,for inst the fighting breeds ,staffies,bullies ect,with those breeds the fighting temperment has long been breed out of them,when i used to show,the breeds, that then came under scrutiny was the german shepherd,english bull terries,and the old english sheep dog,it was alleged and believed at that time that insanity was common in those breeds,

DamagedTrax

i agree and its such a shame. luckily there are plenty of dogs outside the show ring that are still capable workers. my SBT wouldnt touch another dog or human but put her down near wildlife and it gets full on! she works like no dog ive ever handled before.

maybe if the KC stopped worrying about the size of the staffie head and paid more attention to advocating the breeding of the drive and tenacity back into them, we'd be seeing better dogs overall.

getz

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i agree and its such a shame. luckily there are plenty of dogs outside the show ring that are still capable workers. my SBT wouldnt touch another dog or human but put her down near wildlife and it gets full on! she works like no dog ive ever handled before.

maybe if the KC stopped worrying about the size of the staffie head and paid more attention to breeding the drive and tenacity back into them, we'd be seeing better dogs overall.

the pedigree dog[show] is no longer breed for its original purpose [ie staffy a pit fighting dog,bulldog bullfighting,]when those things were banned it was the breed lover[ rich upper class] who kept the breed going,without them most of the sporting and toy dog would not be around today,poor working class people could not afford to keep a specialist dog that had no purpose,many a old breeds are now extinct,like the english otterhounds in the 19th century was one of the most popular dogs in lancashire,even songs written about them,now there is less than 2000 in the world,the show world has a lot of problems yes,but if it wasent for them you may well have never seen or heard of a staffy,

DamagedTrax

getz wrote: »

the show world has a lot of problems yes,but if it wasent for them you may well have never seen or heard of a staffy,

im not saying we would but they've completely lost their way now. and a lot of staffies can easily be bred for working, just because they dont fight doesnt mean the drive should be bred out of them. staffies are fit for a lot of other purposes besides fighting. the energy just needs to be refocused.

getz

DamagedTrax wrote: »

im not saying we would but they've completely lost their way now. and a lot of staffies can easily be bred for working, just because they dont fight doesnt mean the drive should be bred out of them. staffies are fit for a lot of other purposes besides fighting. the energy just needs to be refocused.

you are right in that any breed of dog could be used in a way for working,but i would not buy a washing machine to make a sandwich,staffies are very much family dogs,in fact are often called nanny dogs,and like nothing better than to be around a family and kids,yes i know that there are breeds of dogs that are just a shell compared to their ancestors,but knowing just what their ancestors were capable of doing i am glad they are not,

DamagedTrax

getz wrote: »

you are right in that any breed of dog could be used in a way for working,but i would not buy a washing machine to make a sandwich,staffies are very much family dogs,in fact are often called nanny dogs,and like nothing better than to be around a family and kids,yes i know that there are breeds of dogs that are just a shell compared to their ancestors,but knowing just what their ancestors were capable of doing i am glad they are not,

so we should just breed the drive out of them cause some old farts in the KC decide it looks better?

like i said already my staffie is a great worker and a great family dog that never shows aggresion to another dog or human but i can tell you she'd be more capable for purpose if needed than the majority of the little show dogs. so im sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.

getz

DamagedTrax wrote: »

so we should just breed the drive out of them cause some old farts in the KC decide it looks better?

like i said already my staffie is a great worker and a great family dog that never shows aggresion to another dog or human but i can tell you she'd be more capable for purpose if needed than the majority of the little show dogs. so im sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.

you have a real situation on our doorstep at this time as more and more countries ban fox hunting with dogs,the beagle is soon going to be a endangered dog,the hunting/sporting group will not keep them as pets,so its down to the breed loving/show group to keep them in going,if they cannot get them to adopt to the show ring they are going to end up like the ,old english white terrier that dident adopt so its now extinct,by the way it was a cross between the english white terrierXbulldog =staffie

Discodog

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but put her down near wildlife and it gets full on! she works like no dog ive ever handled before.

advocating the breeding of the drive and tenacity back into them, we'd be seeing better dogs overall.

That it the last thing that we want to do. We have enough problems with the image of dogs especially restricted breeds. What would happen if your dog saw a cat or a protected wild animal & slipped or broke it's lead ?

Dogs do not have to "work" to be healthy. The Beagle is one of the most popular breeds - they aren't going to disappear if hunting was banned.

Fit for purpose ? The purpose is to be a healthy, sweet natured pet that fits in with all aspects of everyday life.

DamagedTrax

That it the last thing that we want to do. We have enough problems with the image of dogs especially restricted breeds.

why? restrictions arent in place because of prey drive. whats wrong with a dog with a healthy drive? the problems are with idiots owning the breeds. why should we compromise what our dogs are bred for cause whacker down the road lets his staffie X get aggro? remember its deed not breed

What would happen if your dog saw a cat or a protected wild animal & slipped or broke it's lead ?

it would be my fault for not following the law. part of the restrictions specify a strong, secure collar and lead. fortunatly i dont make a habbit of throwing cheap crap on her.

Dogs do not have to "work" to be healthy. The Beagle is one of the most popular breeds - they aren't going to disappear if hunting was banned.

nobody is saying they have to but when you have breeds like staffies and pits being on lead constantly, working them (be it ground or agility) is a damn good way of keeping them mentally stable by releasing all that pent-up frustration.

Fit for purpose ? The purpose is to be a healthy, sweet natured pet that fits in with all aspects of everyday life.

and what if your everyday life includes working your dog?

and the best way to get a healthy sweet natured pet is for the dog to be 'fit for purpose'. maybe you're misreading what i mean when i use the term. i dont mean a pit should be up for the fight but a pit is a strong proud dog and they shouldnt be bred into a toy breed, thats my point.

what exactly is healthy and sweet about a bulldog that cant breath and gets cranky? or a cavalier that goes nuts and decides to chew into itself? or a staffy thats too heavy for it's short legs and ends up with joint issues before its even old?

give me a nice strong stable dog with a prey drive anyday of the week. strong preydrive i can control, serious brain issues i cant.

getz

the fox hunting groups do not seem to care much about their dogs,as far as they are concerned the dog is just a tool for their sport,in scotland alone since the ban on fox hunting in 2005,over 3,000 healthy young hounds have been put down,just think how many others in the UK have faced or are facing the same fate,as i have said it will be up the the breed lovers to keep the dog breed going,and dog shows are the best way,

DamagedTrax

getz wrote: »

the fox hunting groups do not seem to care much about their dogs,as far as they are concerned the dog is just a tool for their sport,in scotland alone since the ban on fox hunting in 2005,over 3,000 healthy young hounds have been put down,just think how many others in the UK have faced or are facing the same fate,as i have said it will be up the the breed lovers to keep the dog breed going,and dog shows are the best way,

buddy, im not saying you're wrong. ill be at the show arena myself tomorrow and im hoping to start showing my bitch soon at the ipbta shows. i just dont agree with the KC breed standards for quite a few breeds. i think the KC need to take a serious look at where they're taking the breeds because some of them are in an awful state.

getz

its not the KC that sets the std of each breed,its the breed clubs that do it, but the KC should allso have a say in the way some of the breeds are going,my young bully was breed by a KC accredited breeder,quote:the aim of the KC accredited breeder scheme is to provide a framework to encourage the breeding of health well-adjusted puppies.it lays down a series of requirements that breeders must follow in order to participate in the scheme,breeders who agree to fufil the requirements of the scheme and who wish to be accredited under the scheme may apply to the kennel club for membership of the scheme.puppy buyers from accredited breeders will gain assurances that the breeder has has undertaken to follow basic good practice as laid out by the scheme.then it lists lots of info that the kennel club check up on from random checks on the breeder to feed back on the puppy owners , i dont think they have this in ireland at this time but it will come