6 years jail for garlic scam

cock robin

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Irish businesspeople are being investigated left, right and center by the Revenue and quite a few are being brought before courts. Most of these are relatively small businesses who give a hell of a lot more to the economy than they have taken :eek:
but I can see where the term 'Thick Paddies' came from.

So can I :rolleyes:

BarackPyjama

cock robin wrote: »

The kind of business people we need are honest ones. Not those that while employing people pick and choose what ever txaes they wish to pay and at the same time tax their employees at source.

Businesspeople don't tax their employees at source, the Revenue do. Yes we need honest businesspeople. We also need an honest and competent government - which we currently do not have. Far from it.

cock robin wrote: »

Just becuase you didi not see any guards and yet managed to see a clampers convention is a statement posted here to back up your claim.

No, it's just a fact.

cock robin wrote: »

However I gurantee that there were guards.

There weren't.

cock robin wrote: »

I would imagine you did'nt see dark matter or doctors or teachers or whatever but they were around.

Last time I saw Gardaí on the street, they weren't subtle. Hi-vis jackets tend to draw the attention. The only ones I saw in a 20 minute crawl through Dublin city were ones worn by clampers.

cock robin

BarackPyjama wrote: »

What the hell are you on about? There are no Gardai on the streets! I drove through town the other day and saw about a dozen clampers and not a single Garda. But hey, there's revenue to be generated from those illegally parked cars. :rolleyes:

Sure we would'nt need the clampers if tax evaders paid their fair share. What the hell am I on about ? I don't expect you to understand so I will simplify. Criminals caught offending get tried and sentenced. Is that easier for you.

cock robin

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Businesspeople don't tax their employees at source, the Revenue do. Yes we need honest businesspeople. We also need an honest and competent government - which we currently do not have. Far from it.



No, it's just a fact.



There weren't.



Last time I saw Gardaí on the street, they weren't subtle. Hi-vis jackets tend to draw the attention. The only ones I saw in a 20 minute crawl through Dublin city were ones worn by clampers.

I give up, from rapists to murderers and child molesters and now we are onto clampers. We have drifted so far off topic it ain't funny. I hope Begleys appeal goes well for him but I still hold the view that all criminals regardless of their crime should be treated the same.

BarackPyjama

cock robin wrote: »

I will simplify. Criminals caught offending get tried and sentenced.

Do they, yeah? You obviously haven't been paying too much attention to what's been going on in this country over the last few years.

Fuinseog

mconigol wrote: »

Heres a dentist who just seteled a 1.7million euro tax bill...as well as a bunch of other people
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/revenue-business.html

I suppose all these people need to be locked away too???

you should at least receive a hefty fine. The difference here is that he does not threaten a whole trade as Begley did with European garlic. imagine you earn your living with european garlic and some dude is offering it from china at a much cheaper rate.


I wonder about the ethics of some people. reading through the letters in the times there is widespread support for begley yet these same people whinge that the country is in tatters. our health system could have done with the extra cash injection financed by Begleys taxes as well as the noble dentist above.

Fuinseog

nm wrote: »

At 232%?? I'd call that rate lunacy and very tempting to avoid as it's a rip-off, wealthy or not. You seem to imply that he deserves this more than most people due to being a "business man", which is strange.

I think they want people to import European Garlic instead. why not help our neighbours in the community instead of faraway China?
what is so special about garlic from China anyway?

cock robin

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Do they, yeah? You obviously haven't been paying too much attention to what's been going on in this country over the last few years.

Well then at least in this case the judge has put right that wrong and that should cause your heart to soar like an eagle. Over the past few years this type of crime went unpunished and now the reverse is true. I also understand whats going on now, bleeding hearts such as yours cannot and will not accept that tax evasions is a crime punishable (not in all cases) by a custodial sentence. Your sense of outrage at other sentences handed down in other cases has no bearing on this one. Your ire is felt by all of us when a known recidivist escapes an appropiate sentence. However in this case justice was done and was seen to be done correctly.

benway

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Irish businesspeople are being investigated left, right and center by the Revenue and .

... if they're straight in their dealings, they have nothing to worry about.

You seem to be implying that being a businessperson or oootraorenooor should give them a blank cheque to break the rules, because they're "nett contributors"? After all the damage unethical businesspeople have done?

cock robin

Fuinseog wrote: »

I think they want people to import European Garlic instead. why not help our neighbours in the community instead of faraway China?
what is so special about garlic from China anyway?

The only special thing about Chinese garlic is the exporter (when encouraged by corrupt business practice) is prepared to break the export laws not only in their own country but in this one in order to compete.

BarackPyjama

cock robin wrote: »

Well then at least in this case the judge has put right that wrong and that should cause your heart to soar like an eagle. Over the past few years this type of crime went unpunished and now the reverse is true.

No it's not. What the hell are you talking about? This guy, and others like him, are being used as scapegoats while the people who have ravaged the country are free men. Far from soaring like an eagle, my heart's sinking like Sean Quinn's yacht in the Arctic. I don't give a flying f**k about €1.6m. I give a f**k about the scores of billions that have been stolen from our country.

cock robin wrote: »

I also understand whats going on now, bleeding hearts such as yours cannot and will not accept that tax evasions is a crime punishable (not in all cases) by a custodial sentence. Your sense of outrage at other sentences handed down in other cases has no bearing on this one. Your ire is felt by all of us when a known recidivist escapes an appropiate sentence. However in this case justice was done and was seen to be done correctly.

So the small to medium sized businessman is jailed and the corrupt politicians and bankers who have made this the second most indebted country in the world (through nothing other than theft by the way - ignore the complications) will never face justice for their crimes.

Fair enough. Carry on.

BarackPyjama

benway wrote: »

You seem to be implying that being a businessperson or oootraorenooor should give them a blank cheque to break the rules, because they're "nett contributors"?

I'm saying that laws and taxes should be fair and ethical. A 232% tax on garlic established to protect vested interests isn't.

benway wrote: »

After all the damage unethical businesspeople have done?

Your government and the banking sector have done pretty much all the damage.

benway

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I don't give a flying f**k about €1.6m. I give a f**k about the scores of billions that have been stolen from our country

So you're totally blind to the fact that this €1.6m is a small part of the billions being fleeced through corrupt business practices.

People are essentially trying to justify white collar crime, as if it's not "real" crime - if that works for Begley, it works for Sean Fitzgerald just the same. As I said, if the small fry get a pass, what chance of action on the big fish?

BarackPyjama

benway wrote: »

As I said, if the small fry get a pass, what chance of action on the big fish?

It doesn't matter what happens to the small fry. The big fish will continue to operate with impunity. The small fry will be prosecuted to convince people like you that you're not being completely and utterly raped.

Worztron

When the guy is released from jail - will he still have to pay the tax back? Or is the debt wiped out?

Also, when someone is jailed for not being able to pay a fine or TV license - are these debts wiped out after a jail term has elapsed?

gozunda

benway wrote: »

You seem to be implying that being a businessperson or oootraorenooor should give them a blank cheque to break the rules, because they're "nett contributors"? After all the damage unethical businesspeople have done?

Another beautiful example of the hate generated in this thread and aimed directly at anyone preceived as better off than anyone else.

Your repetitive and derogatory use of such terms as 'oootraornoor' (and I do presume you mean entrepreneur btw and business people as if they are the embodiment of all evil is so imbilcilic that it is beyond further comment. However as far as I am aware incitement to hatred is still illegal in this country.

benway

BarackPyjama wrote: »

It doesn't matter what happens to the small fry.

Yes, it does. Either white collar crime is a priority for the criminal justice system, or we keep on treating it like it's nearly something to be applauded. Fair play to ya bass, I'd have done the same myself.

Everything is relative, granted, but you can't describe a €1.6m fraud as small, either.

This point about the fairness of the tax rate is a laugh as well - if I labelled a couple of tonnes of marijuana as apples for import, then complained because the drug prohibition is irrational and unfair when I got caught, I don't think I'd get much sympathy.

@gozunda

Would you go away out of that. People are trying to claim that the law shouldn't apply to your heroic "net contributors", all I want is that the law should apply at all levels of society. Is that too much to ask? Really?

cock robin

gozunda wrote: »

Another beautiful example of the hate generated in this thread and aimed directly at anyone preceived as better off than anyone else.

Your repetitive and derogatory use of such terms as 'oootraornoor' (and I do presume you mean entrepreneur btw and business people as if they are the embodiment of all evil is so imbilcilic that it is beyond further comment. However as far as I am aware incitement to hatred is still illegal in this country.

There has been no hatred directed at anyone on this thread. Posters are merely commenting on a topic. I think the term used to describe entrepreneur is a light hearted attempt to describe a corrupt buisnessman and not decent businessmen who conduct their affairs in a legal fashion. There is no socialist agenda or anti business agenda either. You have no clue as to the backround of any poster. So for all you know we are business men who are fed up trying to act in an appropiate manner and are competing against those who evade tax in order to compete against us who pay all taxes wether we agree with them or not. Your a 100% regarding incitement to hatred being illegal, it's right up there with fraud. Of course given that its a non violent crime sure what the hell.

nxbyveromdwjpg

cock robin wrote: »

Sure we would'nt need the clampers if tax evaders paid their fair share.

My point being that 232% isnt a fair share at all, which is what would make it tempting to avoid at all cost. 232% tax on anything, is absolutely insane.

Fuinseog wrote: »

I think they want people to import European Garlic instead. why not help our neighbours in the community instead of faraway China?

Help our neighbours?? Interesting business model there. :rolleyes:

Fuinseog wrote: »

what is so special about garlic from China anyway?

The price they sell it at obviously. It's not fake garlic. Why be unfair to far away China? They have the best price on the market, but we should pay 232% more than that because they're what, competitive? far away? different? Someone somewhere decided they'd rather pocket the 232% than let the person that got the better price by sourcing it in China?

florawest

I totally disagree with him being jailed, he employs alot of people, why not have an alternative, say supply Simon Community or some other needy group of people with fresh fruit and veg for a year as well as paying back what he defrauded, the law is strange, seems to be a bit laxy on some and extremely tough on others, why not the same across the board

srsly78

Because then you would be punishing the company instead of the individual.

cock robin

florawest wrote: »

I totally disagree with him being jailed, he employs alot of people, why not have an alternative, say supply Simon Community or some other needy group of people with fresh fruit and veg for a year as well as paying back what he defrauded, the law is strange, seems to be a bit laxy on some and extremely tough on others, why not the same across the board

He is paying back money that was not his to begin with, where is the penalty in that. Steal then return sure the crime remains unpunished. Supply the Simon community with fruit and veg :eek: thats a real deterrent. The law is fairly clear cut, knowingly defraud the revenue commisioners over a period of years get caught go on trial and enjoy your sentence. What is strange is your approach. If we apply your twisted logic then all criminals could donate fruit and veg to the Simon community and walk free. Or are you suggesting that Begley's case is different on the basis that he is an employer and a pillar of the community.Maybe in your community he is and I hope you embrace all criminals in such a way. The law is tough on some for a reason, to discourage employers/businessmen employing "hundreds", pillars of the community, donors to charity etc from allowing their greed to defraud us the normal decent hardworking people of this country. His is where all chancers end up when their facade slips. Prison... With all like minded criminals. Donate fruit and veg FFS get real. Where do you live? fairystory avenue.

florawest

Maybe if you read it again, you will see i said as well as giving to a worthy cause, Pay Back What He Defrauded the System

dvpower

florawest wrote: »

I totally disagree with him being jailed, he employs alot of people, why not have an alternative, say supply Simon Community or some other needy group of people with fresh fruit and veg for a year as well as paying back what he defrauded, the law is strange, seems to be a bit laxy on some and extremely tough on others, why not the same across the board

It is a bit lax.
And you want his only punishment for a €1.6 fraud to be to have to supply the Simon Community with fresh fruit and veg for a year. :rolleyes:

cock robin

florawest wrote: »

Maybe if you read it again, you will see i said as well as giving to a worthy cause, Pay Back What He Defrauded the System

Read it again why? Will it seem less like bullsh1t. Paying back money he stole, explain how that or donating to charity is a punishment for fraud. I think to be honest it is you who needs to read again as I referred to both your fairytale suggestions in my post.

Dublinwon

Scammers and liars should be jailed. You can't compare crimes he deserves every bit of the sentence he got. He must have got his family to write all the do gooder posts. He was probably up to a lot more and is the type that has the country in the mess it's in. Why should we celebrate a thief liar and scammer just because he employed people. Sure he can still sell his apples and oranges from his cell in prison and continue to not pay any taxes unlike the rest of us that actually do obey the law

Capt'n Midnight

mconigol wrote: »

Heres a dentist who just seteled a 1.7million euro tax bill...as well as a bunch of other people
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/revenue-business.html

I suppose all these people need to be locked away too???

from that link

Mr Brooke Tyrrell, a former assistant manager at FÁS, was last year sentenced to four years in prison, with the last two suspended, for defrauding the agency of over €600,000 between 2003 and 2008.

Dickerty

@Dublinwon, it is pretty inflamatory to suggest that he is up to a lot more. Any proof on that one? Nope?

I used to know Paul Begley, when I ran a fruit and veg in the 90s. He was far nicer to deal with than most of the larger groups. They were always struggling under the pressure of Keelings in particular, who have the large supermarkets mostly sewn up.

Absolutely, he made a mistake and deliberately too a short-cut to make money for the business, and in turn for himself (as it is family run). But to suggest he deserves a 6 year custodial sentance is preposterous, in light of how sentencing is typically imposed in this country -

A man convicted of sexual assault on 2 boys got 12 years. Chance of reoffending - yes.
Rape sentances are typically 8 years
And our Donegal friend who's been recaptured today in Derry gets 7 years for killing a Garda, on top of all his earlier convictions. Chance of reoffending - very much so.

So your idea of fairness, or getting what he deserved, is very different from mine...

gizmo555

Dickerty wrote: »

Absolutely, he made a mistake and deliberately too a short-cut to make money for the business

He didn't "make a mistake" or "take a short cut", he knowingly and deliberately committed a serious revenue offence over a period of years. If he knew it was an offence then presumably he also knew the potential consequences if he was caught, up to and including imprisonment. The business was his and his family's, so the money it made was also his.

Dickerty wrote: »

But to suggest he deserves a 6 year custodial sentance is preposterous, in light of how sentencing is typically imposed in this country -

He has the right to appeal the severity of the sentence and no doubt he'll exercise it. But whatever the appeal court decides, their previous judgement referenced earlier in this thread, in particular this passage:

significant and systematic frauds directed upon the public revenue . . . should generally meet with an immediate and appreciable custodial sentence.

- would hardly give him grounds for much optimism that he'll escape a significant prison term.

Mits

I think it is a disgrace the Paul Begley has been jailed for 6 years. Ever since I heard, it has stuck in my mind. This is not justice. Is there a petition or some other way to show the powers that be that the majority of people do not agree with this.

His crime was financial and so should be his punishment. He was paying the money back. Now he is in jail at the countries expense.

I also think a 232% tax on garlic is ridiculous. What happened to let the market decide.

paddy147

6 years in jail for a garlic tax dodge.

Yet no banker has been prossecuted or jailed for all the millions of euro going missing and fcuking up this country

Oh and a garda only get a 2k euro fine and 6 months to pay for sexual harrassment and sexual assault.

What a country we live in today.

dxhound2005

Someone on the radio today mentioned a comparison between this case and the man who got 12 years for a Social Welfare fraud which resulted in much less loss of state money. Given the amount of deliberation and planning involved in both cases it is probably a fair comparison.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0721/murrayp.html

dvpower

Mits wrote: »

What happened to let the market decide.

Do you want to 'let the market decide'? do you really want a fully free market where goods and labour can cross borders with no restrictions?

Cork24

So let me get this.. You don't agree with this guy going to jail??

Funny as it sound the guy scammed the tax system.

If he was let go what is stopping other chef, hotels doing the same?

It may have a high tax rate but it does give the guy the right to try and scam his way to lower tax

paddy147

Cork24 wrote: »

So let me get this.. You don't agree with this guy going to jail??

Funny as it sound the guy scammed the tax system.

If he was let go what is stopping other chef, hotels doing the same?

It may have a high tax rate but it does give the guy the right to try and scam his way to lower tax

Its the severity of the jail sentence and the fact that he had allready agreed a payment plan with revenue and paid back the money owed to revenue

nxbyveromdwjpg

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Someone on the radio today mentioned a comparison between this case and the man who got 12 years for a Social Welfare fraud which resulted in much less loss of state money. Given the amount of deliberation and planning involved in both cases it is probably a fair comparison.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0721/murrayp.html

There's a lot more planning and deliberation in that in fairness, identity theft of 7 different people for one thing. I would consider that a lot more serious than mislabeling his own imported vegetables to avoid an absurd tax percentage.

dvpower wrote: »

Do you want to 'let the market decide'? do you really want a fully free market where goods and labour can cross borders with no restrictions?

It's not "no restrictions", he was paying the standard tax rate from what I can tell - if I can source a vegetable at a good price I want to be able to import it without the tax man ludicrously taxing my goods out of the universe. It's not our problem if the EU can't compete in the garlic stakes with China.

Do you support VRT here btw?

Cork24

Do the. Crime pay the price..

If he got away with this what will stop any one else following his foot steps

nxbyveromdwjpg

Cork24 wrote: »

If he got away with this what will stop any one else following his foot steps

A rational punishment, one that fits the crime?

mikemac1

Never has a criminal gotten such much support on boards.ie

Stealing cars and breaking them to sell for parts is not a violent crime either but if some lad was going around estates at night stealing cars over a number of years he'd get less sympathy then this other crook

Irelands love of the cute hoor who fiddles the system continues
The same people who were blasting Tipp North and Kerry are now supporting Begley

Squeeonline

You only get 7 years for killing a Garda. In a minimum security prison.

And this garlic guy is paying back the money.

Mits

dvpower wrote: »

Do you want to 'let the market decide'? do you really want a fully free market where goods and labour can cross borders with no restrictions?

This is off the topic of Paul Begley. The excuse we hear for stocks, shares, interest rates etc is that the market decides. I do not believe in protectionism, the butter and grain mountains of the past. Farmers being paid not to plant crops. Fishermen put out of business due to EU limits and this an island.
If a product or service can be produced somewhere else cheaper, with the same quality and conditions and people want to buy it and not support local, then yes the market should decide. If the conditions of production are not equal or fair then there should be other ways to deal with it, maybe a total ban.

paddy147

How long of a jail sentence did Ivor Callily get for all his criminal behavour??

Same with Ray Burke???

paddy147

He only got 6 monts in jail.

I wonder why??

Oh and read the very last line about Burke being made a "SCAPEGOAT".


Unbelievebale eh??

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0124/burker.html



Former Fianna Fáil Minister Ray Burke has been transferred to Arbour Hill Prison where he has begun his six-month sentence.

Burke was earlier photographed and finger-printed at Mountjoy Prison before being transferred to Arbour Hill.

This afternoon, the former minister was jailed by the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court for tax offences.

The Tánaiste Mary Harney described the sentence as a watershed in Irish life. Speaking in Limerick, Ms Harney said the imprisonment of the former Government minister vindicated the work of the tribunals and inquiries that had been set up.

She said it was a huge fall from grace for somebody who held several Cabinet portfolios.

Imposing the sentence, Judge Desmond Hogan said that Burke, who had held a number of senior Government portfolios including Environment, Justice, and Foreign Affairs, had abused his special position.

The judge said that as a member of the Dáil, Burke took part in the legislative process that affects the lives of everybody in Ireland.

Judge Hogan said Burke's offences were premeditated acts to minimise his taxes, and that he had committed a breach of trust.

The 61-year-old was a minister when the 1983 Finance Act, under which he was prosecuted, was passed into law.

Guilty plea

The former politician pleaded guilty last July to knowingly or wilfully furnishing incorrect information during the Government's tax amnesty of 1993 by failing to declare an income of £91,980.

He also admitted knowingly or wilfully furnishing incorrect information to the Inspector of Taxes on or after December 1993 by failing to declare income of £24,038.

The investigation by the Criminal Assets Bureau that led to Burke's arrest began in 2000, and in a search at his home a folder of information showed he had failed to fully declare his income over a nine-year period.

He had declared income from deposit accounts at just over £5,000 for the period 1982 to 1991. Actual earnings were over £97,000.

In mitigation, Judge Hogan considered Burke's early guilty plea, his co-operation and the fact that he is now tax compliant. But he said he had abused his special position and a jail sentence was warranted.

The judge then imposed a six-month sentence and refused leave to appeal.

Burke's lawyer, Patrick Hunt, earlier urged Judge Hogan not to jail his client, adding his previous position was no reason to scapegoat him

dvpower

Mits wrote: »

This is off the topic of Paul Begley. The excuse we hear for stocks, shares, interest rates etc is that the market decides. I do not believe in protectionism, the butter and grain mountains of the past. Farmers being paid not to plant crops. Fishermen put out of business due to EU limits and this an island.
If a product or service can be produced somewhere else cheaper, with the same quality and conditions and people want to buy it and not support local, then yes the market should decide. If the conditions of production are not equal or fair then there should be other ways to deal with it, maybe a total ban.

Or an large import duty perhaps?

dvpower

paddy147 wrote: »

He only got 6 monts in jail.

I wonder why??

Oh and read the very last line about Burke being made a "SCAPEGOAT".


Unbelievebale eh??

What's unbelievable is that someone would try and mix Ray Burke into this case.

You do know that its possible to start new threads for different topics?

ArmaniJeanss

Mits wrote: »

I think it is a disgrace the Paul Begley has been jailed for 6 years. Ever since I heard, it has stuck in my mind. This is not justice. Is there a petition or some other way to show the powers that be that the majority of people do not agree with this.

His crime was financial and so should be his punishment. He was paying the money back. Now he is in jail at the countries expense.

I also think a 232% tax on garlic is ridiculous. What happened to let the market decide.

Are you running a bit scared because of your own tax dodging?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69189757&postcount=13

paddy147

dvpower wrote: »

What's unbelievable is that someone would try and mix Ray Burke into this case.

You do know that its possible to start new threads for different topics?

So Im not allowed to show or highlight how other people (tds and senators) do the same illegal thing,but only get very minor jail terms??

Im not allowed to do that here,just becuse you dont like it??.

Worztron

Why is it that we hear of tax evaders many a time with their names published in newspapers and they just get a big fine?

Sunnyisland

Mits wrote: »

I think it is a disgrace the Paul Begley has been jailed for 6 years. Ever since I heard, it has stuck in my mind. This is not justice. Is there a petition or some other way to show the powers that be that the majority of people do not agree with this.

His crime was financial and so should be his punishment. He was paying the money back. Now he is in jail at the countries expense.

I also think a 232% tax on garlic is ridiculous. What happened to let the market decide.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Are you running a bit scared because of your own tax dodging?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69189757&postcount=13

:D:D

dvpower

paddy147 wrote: »

So Im not allowed to show or highlight how other people (tds and senators) do the same illegal thing,but only get very minor jail terms??

Im not allowed to do that here,just becuse you dont like it??.

Ray Burke was smuggling garlic too? I always suspected it:rolleyes: