England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

Fishooks12

teednab-el wrote: »

Well our underachievements of the past is a good enough reason as why I am negative about Irish rugby and you believe that's going to change sometime soon?

So you can't name any young Irish players then and give a critical response as to why you don't think they'll make it?

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

teednab-el wrote: »

As great as POC is for Ireland he was never in BOD's league for talent.

BOD is undoubtedly the best player Ireland has had in the professional era. I'd still consider POC as being World Class when at his peak.

Although he still wasn't the best lock in the world even when at his best. Matfield and Thorn are the 2 outstanding locks of this generation imo.

Saw an interview with Matfield in the last week or so where he said that the toughest opponent he's ever faced was POC. He may never have been the flashy sort but by god he is effective.

Clegg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

So you can't name any young Irish players then and give a critical response as to why you don't think they'll make it?

I have my worries over Andrew Conway. I've been to most Leinster games he's played in and he's undoubtedly talented. But he gets injured so very easily. If he gets a good run of games then he could be something great. But right now I'm not so sure.

JRant

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

In 8 years I reckon we'll be the dominant force in NH rugby, such is the talent we have coming through at underage level

There's a lot to be said for the way rugby is steadily growing here. We are getting coaches coming from NZ and SA, the benifit of which will only really be seen in 3-4 years. There's some real talent coming through the ranks right now as well.
We all have an opinion on team selection/development, personally I don't think we have the right man to bring them through but thats immaterial.
You don't become world beaters overnight, it takes time to set up the right structures and it would seem we are on the right track.

Clegg

molloyjh wrote: »

Saw an interview with Matfield in the last week or so where he said that the toughest opponent he's ever faced was POC. He may never have been the flashy sort but by god he is effective.

POC is well respected by everyone who has played against him. He's certainly one of the best locks over the last 10 years. I'm not sure if he's the very best however.

JRant

molloyjh wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

teednab-el wrote: »

As great as POC is for Ireland he was never in BOD's league for talent.

BOD is undoubtedly the best player Ireland has had in the professional era. I'd still consider POC as being World Class when at his peak.

Although he still wasn't the best lock in the world even when at his best. Matfield and Thorn are the 2 outstanding locks of this generation imo.

Saw an interview with Matfield in the last week or so where he said that the toughest opponent he's ever faced was POC. He may never have been the flashy sort but by god he is effective.

And then some, he's got the whole dog in him. You can't really appreciate how good he is on tv though but when you see him in the flesh he's quite a sight to behold.

Fireball07

I don't like talk of golden generations simply because you can never really pick one group of players as one generation, they meld into each other.

But if we're going to call some generation the golden one, then why not be one that has brilliant players like Kearney, Bowe, Sexton Heaslip, Ferris, O'Brien, Healy?? With POC, BOD, ROG, Wallace all still playing too.


And POC is/was world class. Consistently one of the best locks in the world over the course of his career, he always brings something extra to whatever team he plays in. Even now, (with a hint of bias), if I could choose one lock in the world to play for Munster/Ireland, it'd be him.

Podge_irl

It wasn't the Golden Generation, it was the BOD Generation.

ormond lad

Clegg wrote: »

TBH the whole idea of a "Golden Generation" of Irish rugby is a load of nonsense. We have had a lot of good players develop over the last 10-15 years but BOD and POC are the only players from Ireland that have truly been world class over the majority of their careers.

I'm not knocking this generation of players. They've done very well and have won Heineken Cups as well as becoming competitive on the International stage. But calling it a Golden Generation is disengenuous. It's a phrase coined by over zealous journalists to describe the crop of talented players that emerged after the terrible 1990's.

IMO the "Golden Genaration" were players like Hickie, Dempsey, Murphy, BOD, Stringer, Horgan, POC, etc. The Irish team right now isn't part of the so-called GG.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

In 8 years I reckon we'll be the dominant force in NH rugby, such is the talent we have coming through at underage level

teednab-el wrote: »

That translates to nothing at the highest level of rugby. Most of those players won't make the transistion or be good enough. It's a big step up.

teednab-el wrote: »

Well our underachievements of the past is a good enough reason as why I am negative about Irish rugby and you believe that's going to change sometime soon?

Yes, most of the irish players at the moment were the successors to the Golden Generation
There is talent coming though at underage level but the idea of loaning players to connacht must be utilised to ensure there is no build up of players in specific positions in the other 3 provinces for example 2nd row where in the past season or 2 young talented players like dave foley and ian nagle have been behind POC, DOC, DR, MOD, BH.
Teed, underage teams to a degree do translate to senior success. Look at New Zealand and u20 world cup as 1 example
Quite a few players who make international underage teams dont make it as pros but the main(and usually the best) players do
But in the past we havent had very very strong provincial sides that have been amongst the best in europe. Playing numbers are increasing at all levels in ireland and looking to the past and saying thatis why we will be poor in the future is completly stupid

Apols for driving this way off topic

irishbucsfan

I think we'll end up being better in 3/4 years than we are now. Whether that translates into wins or success depends on coaching and the strength of opposition I guess.

prospect

Is this the proper match thread?

Nigel Owens tweeted that he is reff'ing the game.

chris85

Clegg wrote: »

POC is well respected by everyone who has played against him. He's certainly one of the best locks over the last 10 years. I'm not sure if he's the very best however.

I think he is up there with the best. He is great at scrum time and masterminds the lineout. He puts a lot of hard work in everywhere on the pitch. I havent many memories of watching a game with POC in it and saying he was played crap. I have many of a lot of other players.

.ak

Bowe must be having try-withdrawls...

.ak

England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Lee Mears, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

prospect

I put a tenner on Ireland with -6.0, only got a miserable 3/1


Betting with my heart there.

CiaranMT

Surely England have some other than Mike Brown to cover the backs?

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

Surely England have some other than Mike Brown to cover the backs?

Foden / Hodgson / Brown would cover the entire 10-15.

CiaranMT

Someone better though.

.ak

It's a shame that Brown hasn't got a chance to play more this 6N. Whilst Foden is definitely the better 15, I'd love to see what Brown could do. Should've played against Italy imo, especially considering the mare of a game Foden had.

Panda Moanium

So what do people make of the comments by Ferris and Kearney reported in the media in the last couple of days, Ferris about always liking beating the English above all the others, and Kearney that Ireland are much better than England? Certainly seems to have ruffled a few feathers over in England, talk of arrogant Irish and all that.

While I think the comments have been put out of context to a certain degree, I'm surprised that we're giving England any ammunition to use against us. Kidney is normally the master of downplaying our chances and praising the opposition, so does it mean this is a new approach given that two players have made what can be perceived as slightly incendiary comments? If so I wouldn't be too happy about it - by all means we want our players to go out there confident they can beat the opposition, but I'd be much happier to hear them lauding the English to the high heavens in the build-up, then doing the real talking on the pitch. Remember Warren Gatland's infamous comments about the Welsh hating the Irish more than any other team a couple of years back, and how it came back to bite him...

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

Someone better though.

pisstake?

Been the best 15 in the Premiership this season. Foden an absolute magician, but Brown has been a quality pair of hands, a strong runner and solid in defence throughout the season.

I am a huge Foden fan, but Brown has been consistently good this season, something that Foden hasn't managed with a hot and cold season.

.ak

Panda Moanium wrote: »

So what do people make of the comments by Ferris and Kearney reported in the media in the last couple of days, Ferris about always liking beating the English above all the others, and Kearney that Ireland are much better than England? Certainly seems to have ruffled a few feathers over in England, talk of arrogant Irish and all that.

While I think the comments have been put out of context to a certain degree, I'm surprised that we're giving England any ammunition to use against us. Kidney is normally the master of downplaying our chances and praising the opposition, so does it mean this is a new approach given that two players have made what can be perceived as slightly incendiary comments? If so I wouldn't be too happy about it - by all means we want our players to go out there confident they can beat the opposition, but I'd be much happier to hear them lauding the English to the high heavens in the build-up, then doing the real talking on the pitch. Remember Warren Gatland's infamous comments about the Welsh hating the Irish more than any other team a couple of years back, and how it came back to bite him...

Hehe, yeh, kinda reminds you of '07 doesn't it?

But I wouldn't read too much into it. Completely taken out of context, the Ferris one especially.

CiaranMT

Deleted User wrote: »

pisstake?

Been the best 15 in the Premiership this season. Foden an absolute magician, but Brown has been a quality pair of hands, a strong runner and solid in defence throughout the season.

I am a huge Foden fan, but Brown has been consistently good this season, something that Foden hasn't managed with a hot and cold season.

I could say the same thing about Denis Hurley, who has been very impressive this season and seems to have added more to his game in the process. He's still not going to play for Ireland any time soon, barring injuries.

I dunno. I've just never rated the likes of Brown, Turner-Hall et al at the same level some others do.

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

I could say the same thing about Denis Hurley, who has been very impressive this season and seems to have added more to his game in the process. He's still not going to play for Ireland any time soon, barring injuries.

I dunno. I've just never rated the likes of Brown, Turner-Hall et al at the same level some others do.

course you could, Hurley would be an able player if Kearney wasn't firing on all cylinders, but... he is.

Foden isn't quite playing near where he is able.

smurphy29

Deleted User wrote: »

course you could, Hurley would be an able player if Kearney wasn't firing on all cylinders, but... he is.

Foden isn't quite playing near where he is able.

I'd be of the view that Hurley, for all his qualities as a provincial player, wouldn't quite have the pace for international rugby. Fine player, but just shy of test class.

irishbucsfan

Mike Brown is much better than Hurley.

Great player. Very intelligent, scores bags of tries and gas Girve like solidity at the back.

Noopti

Panda Moanium wrote: »

So what do people make of the comments by Ferris and Kearney reported in the media in the last couple of days, Ferris about always liking beating the English above all the others, and Kearney that Ireland are much better than England? Certainly seems to have ruffled a few feathers over in England, talk of arrogant Irish and all that.

While I think the comments have been put out of context to a certain degree, I'm surprised that we're giving England any ammunition to use against us. Kidney is normally the master of downplaying our chances and praising the opposition, so does it mean this is a new approach given that two players have made what can be perceived as slightly incendiary comments? If so I wouldn't be too happy about it - by all means we want our players to go out there confident they can beat the opposition, but I'd be much happier to hear them lauding the English to the high heavens in the build-up, then doing the real talking on the pitch. Remember Warren Gatland's infamous comments about the Welsh hating the Irish more than any other team a couple of years back, and how it came back to bite him...

Slightly taken out of context, however at least it makes for more interesting reading than the usual:
* They are a great set of players, with a new coach doing well and it will be a tough game
* I know from playing against them in the Heineken Cup that they will be tough to beat.
* We are definitely the underdogs going to Twickenham against a very good England team

zzzZZZZ :P

However I am a bit surprised. Maybe they are trying to rattle some of Englands loose cannons (Hartley & Ashton spring to mind). Who knows.

Flincher

CiaranMT wrote: »

I could say the same thing about Denis Hurley, who has been very impressive this season and seems to have added more to his game in the process. He's still not going to play for Ireland any time soon, barring injuries.

I dunno. I've just never rated the likes of Brown, Turner-Hall et al at the same level some others do.

Brown I think has improved a lot over the last while, but I don't think he has done enough to push Foden out. He's not the most versitile player so I'm surprised he has been on the bench throughout. I suppose Farrell is covering the centres, but I think it

I'd agree with you on Turner-Hall. There are far more intellegent classier centres out there. Anthony Allen should be ahead of him, and I think Henry Trinder will be soon.

stephen_n

Be some interesting match ups in this game. I think Earls pace will question Tuillagi's defense much as I'm sure he will test Earls defense. Hopefully the blitz will nullify a lot of Tuillagi's attacking threat and Earls tackling has been great so far. If we Blitz I have no doubt Farrell will run at us but is his kicking game good enough to exploit the gaps in behind the blitz? We may well gain dominance in the back row but all in all the packs will be fairly even, I'm sure we will be targeting the scrum which is unusual for an Irish pack in Twickenham and it will be interesting to see if Ryan can attack their lineout. Ireland +5

nerd69

kearney>foden>a healthy felix jones>brown>dave kearney>hurley just my opinion hurleys a very talented player and hes big for a fullback but where very deep at fb at the mo earls and fitz should be in there somewhere aswell