Secularism on RTE's "the Frontline" tomorrow

beerbuddy

koth wrote: »

david quinn continuing to peddle the myth of faith schools achieving better grades from students. Pity he fails to mention the policies on admissions that make sure they get those grades.

You will need to explain that one ?

Penn

Well I don't want... MY children brought up in a society where I wouldn't be able to rely on... MY local school to teach... MY children the religion I chose for them and instead have to do it... MYself during... MY own free time


****ing hell that woman was a complete head wrecker. Of course everyone wants what they think is best for their own children. The problem is what's best for each community and for society, and the fact that she has children doesn't mean she's any more entitled to having the local school be a Catholic school than for a Muslim to have their local school be a Muslim one

Penn

beerbuddy wrote: »

You will need to explain that one ?

The church-run schools in England which tend to get better results tend to do so due to being able to be more selective with accepting students, such as accepting fewer children from rougher areas etc.

Dave!

I thought it was reasonably good in the end. Pat did a good job, the secular types were clear and concise and reasonable, and by mixing the issue of gay marriage into it a lot of the religious types came across as intolerant.

Can't imagine any minds have been changed, but who knows!

sasser

smokingman wrote: »

First time I've seen that Quinn fellow - is it just me or does he look a bit like the ex-head of the BNP in England?

Reminds me of Joe O'Reilly :-p

Galvasean

Dave! wrote: »

Can't imagine any minds have been changed, but who knows!

The audience isn't the best indicator of current opinion though. The kind of people that actually want to be in the crowd for such shows have a reputation for being very conservative.
I would imagine you'd get a lot more open minded people watching on TV.

Havermeyer

Is this worth catching up with on the RTE player?

I missed it earlier, but don't really want to tune in if it's just a rabble fest.

sonicthebadger*

Galvasean wrote: »

The audience isn't the best indicator of current opinion though. The kind of people that actually want to be in the crowd for such shows have a reputation for being very conservative.
I would imagine you'd get a lot more open minded people watching on TV.

I didn't watch all of it but the only round of applause I noticed was after the gay man spoke in response to the Islamic guy who said he'd be with the RCC in opposing gay marriage.

expectationlost

can't bare to watch what was the priest like re giving up schools?

UDP

I think the homosexual guy beside the black woman who strongly believes homosexuality should not be tolerated because it says so in the bible sums up all that is wrong with so many "catholics" in ireland. He says he is gay and openly catholic which is fine as long as he does not do any homosexual acts (possibly unlikely) but then he goes on to say that say the bible was just written by people suggesting that it is not the word of god. He says he believes in god and that's what matters (or something to that effect). He labels himself a catholic ??? Wtf

UDP

expectationlost wrote: »

can't bare to watch what was the priest like re giving up schools?

He said they brought that up first and are willing to do so.

The amount of christians displaying their christian "values" was astounding. The two strongest values that were on display were intolerance and selfishness.

Delirium

UDP wrote: »

I think the homosexual guy beside the black woman who strongly believes homosexuality should not be tolerated because it says so in the bible sums up all that is wrong with so many "catholics" in ireland. He says he is gay and openly catholic which is fine as long as he does not do any homosexual acts (possibly unlikely) but then he goes on to say that say the bible was just written by people suggesting that it is not the word of god. He says he believes in god and that's what matters (or something to that effect). He labels himself a catholic ??? Wtf

And the lady said that the church cannot be forced to perform gay marriage. Which Kenny didn't explain isn't even being suggested.

Ghost Buster

UDP wrote: »

I think the homosexual guy beside the black woman who strongly believes homosexuality should not be tolerated because it says so in the bible sums up all that is wrong with so many "catholics" in ireland. He says he is gay and openly catholic which is fine as long as he does not do any homosexual acts (possibly unlikely) but then he goes on to say that say the bible was just written by people suggesting that it is not the word of god. He says he believes in god and that's what matters (or something to that effect). He labels himself a catholic ??? Wtf

That was the one moment where my cuppa came close to being launched telly-wards. He insists that he is catholic but that the bible can be dismissed as it was written by men. So where does he get his catholicism from. Does he have a direct line to God?
I dont fathom gay men who remain catholic. i really dont.

Foghladh

I was more surprised at the 90% catholic figure that was put out there. I can't say I've thought about it too much but I wouldn't have thought that many people would still classify themselves as RC.

Mind you having said that, I think I'll be counted as catholic in the 2011 census figures. I was in my mums house on the night of the count and when my turn to fill out my details I saw that she'd taken the liberty to fill in my name, age and religion for me. As she had for my brother, who's a pretty outspoken atheist and my two kids who were never baptised! And she knew exactly what she was doing!

The state should really think about levying a church tax, as they do here in Sweden, to fund the varying religions.

I'd imagine the prospect of a further 2% of your salary disappearing out of your paypacket would focus the mind wonderfully when it comes to declaring your beliefs

Zamboni

Foghladh wrote: »

Mind you having said that, I think I'll be counted as catholic in the 2011 census figures. I was in my mums house on the night of the count and when my turn to fill out my details I saw that she'd taken the liberty to fill in my name, age and religion for me. As she had for my brother, who's a pretty outspoken atheist and my two kids who were never baptised! And she knew exactly what she was doing!

Did you and your brother consider growing a set and correcting the form?

Zamboni

Are all atheists supposed to be pro gay marriage?
I must have missed that memo.

Burning Eclipse

David Quinn's slimey nature was highlighted for me when he brought up China, highlighting it as being "Secularist and Communist"... I'm sure he was making the association to plant that seed in peoples minds that secularism leads to communism, human rights atrocities and whatever else people would care to infer.

I did not enjoy the show. I've tuned into The Frontline perhaps 3 out of the last 4 weeks. It is a show that doesn't provide for a legitimate debate, and always feels underbaked to me. It is empty viewing imo.

MagicMarker

Zamboni wrote: »

Are all atheists supposed to be pro gay marriage?
I must have missed that memo.

Not all atheists, just all decent human beings.

Foghladh

Zamboni wrote: »

Did you and your brother consider growing a set and correcting the form?

Well I would have done except it was done in pen!

Zamboni

Foghladh wrote: »

Well I would have done except it was done in pen!

Well don't be surprised to hear high stats of catholics when you allowed yourself and your children to be counted as them! :eek:

Penn

Foghladh wrote: »

Well I would have done except it was done in pen!

I made my mother put me down as No Religion. The next morning, I noticed my father had crossed it out and put me down as Roman Catholic. So I changed it back (probably voided the whole thing, but had to try)

If you knew she had done it, you could have still tried to change it. I think you're meant to put a straight line in whatever box is relevant to you, then put an X through it if you marked the wrong box. You could have put an X through it and marked No Religion.

Foghladh

Foghladh wrote: »

Well I would have done except it was done in pen!

so you scratch it out and fill it in correctly and initial it

recedite

Kind of ironic to see the black lady trying to set up a segregated school.
She said it was refused because "apparently" they haven't got sufficient numbers yet. More likely the government judged that it would be a ticking time-bomb for Irish society. Can't really blame her though, the kids were refused admission into the local RCC schools a few years ago, on grounds of religious discrimination, with the full back-up of the law. Racism is not a feature of the RCC or the Irish education system, but lets face it, these African type evangelical churches are probably the fastest growing minority religion in the country, and some of the white parents are quite happy to use legalised religious discrimination to keep the immigrant kids out of "their" school.

Then the scary Drogheda lady saying her school must remain an undiluted catholic school, she wants "the minority" to set up "their own" school.
Does she really look forward to a future in which the Ireland of the 2040's is like Alabama in the 1940's?

Dades

Did people really expect a better showing than that? I thought the secularist side of things got a really good hearing and it was the nay-sayers that came across as the intolerant ones. Unlike the Late Late from last year - there wasn't a bus load of apologists clapping everytime someone shouted "Ireland is a catholic country!" :pac:

Foghladh wrote: »

I was more surprised at the 90% catholic figure that was put out there. I can't say I've thought about it too much but I wouldn't have thought that many people would still classify themselves as RC.

A continuing bugbear of mine. Stupid census suggests anyone from 1 day old upwards can have a religion. Sure why don't they get a vote in the EU referendum too if they're that able for such decisions?

Foghladh

Foghladh wrote: »

Well I would have done except it was done in pen!

bluewolf wrote: »

so you scratch it out and fill it in correctly and initial it

Hmmm... Tough crowd. Maybe next time I'll throw in a smiley face or something.

My original post said that I think I'll be counted as a catholic in the 2011 census. As it happens I did change the religion status but, being that the census form was in the possession of my mother for the next who-knows how many weeks, I suspect that it was probably changed back. To her mind catholicism is really my default mode of being

antiskeptic

Pace2008 wrote: »

I just know this will be perfect for a game of backwards-Ireland bingo. I have no doubt that "Catholic country" and "part of who we are" will feature. Any other suggestions are welcome.

How about "this is the 21st century - time to jettison all that old hat hocus pocus".

Forgetting of course that in a century or two, your view will be old hat too.

Zamboni

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not all atheists, just all decent human beings.

You left out the imo at the end of that sentence...;)

it shouldn't need one, there's nothing wrong with it

robindch

UDP wrote: »

The two strongest values that were on display were intolerance and selfishness.

Number three was a vivid persecution complex.

Zamboni

bluewolf wrote: »

it shouldn't need one, there's nothing wrong with it

Is it a fact that people against gay marriage are indecent human beings?