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Lolek Ltd, Trading as 'The Iona Institute'

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    #1382
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Generally I disagree with all their policies in that they want to run for the seanad. I have a choice of two votes (I am assuming the system isn't dumb enough to allow me to vote in both) so I should apply for one but really the dang thing is barely above the self important students unions in my mind. I have spent enough time having to listen to their claims of being able to do something (anything).

    I did attempt change. I voted for it to be abolished. I can try get it back on the ballot for abolishen I suppose. Or I could try get them some actual power.

    I also voted for it to be abolished , and if that had happened then most would revert to just being cranks , now because people think it is beneath them to vote we end up with cranks with megaphones and legitimacy .

    And the rest of us with no vote have to just look on .


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    #1383
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    marienbad wrote: »
    I also voted for it to be abolished , and if that had happened then most would revert to just being cranks , now because people think it is beneath them to vote we end up with cranks with megaphones and legitimacy .

    And the rest of us with no vote have to just look on .

    ...well, with megaphones anyway....


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    #1384
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    mahoganygas wrote: »
    Topics like same sex marriage were first discussed in the Seanad. Long before it was ever debated in the Dail.
    And SSM was debated in the pub before it was debated in the Seanad. So what?
    robindch wrote: »
    It was intended to be a balancing legislative chamber to the Dail; however its legislative and review powers were hobbled by De Valera in his successful 1936 constitutional power grab, so it's a little bit useless at the moment.

    Some more degree of seriousness on the part of voters would be good, as would a greater democratic mandate, and greater power.
    True, but mainly it aped the House of Lords in the same way that the Dail was based on the House of Commons. The House of Lords only exists for historical reasons and is largely obsolete, like the monarchy. There is no good reason for a republic to ape either of these. Even our president is devoid of executive power and acts mainly as a figurehead, thus aping the British monarch.


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    #1385
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    recedite wrote: »
    And SSM was debated in the pub before it was debated in the Seanad. So what?
    True, but mainly it aped the House of Lords in the same way that the Dail was based on the House of Commons. The House of Lords only exists for historical reasons and is largely obsolete, like the monarchy. There is no good reason for a republic to ape either of these. Even our president is devoid of executive power and acts mainly as a figurehead, thus aping the British monarch.

    Not a massive fan of the House of Lords myself, particularly the bunch of bishops that sit in it, it it has done some really good work recently, and it has done it at the risk of losing what little power it has left.

    MrP


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    #1386
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,948 ✭✭✭Christy42


    marienbad wrote: »
    I also voted for it to be abolished , and if that had happened then most would revert to just being cranks , now because people think it is beneath them to vote we end up with cranks with megaphones and legitimacy .

    And the rest of us with no vote have to just look on .

    Why look on? They aren't going to make a blind bit of difference either way. It really is like a student election. All full of promises about what they will do without the position any power. Sure the TDs lie to get into power but at least it is theoretically possible for them to do something useful.

    They are cranks with a salary for being cranks. Sure they debated about ssm but no one payed attention. Then Labour made it an issue to get into government with fine gael last time out and then we had the vote.

    Feel free to contact me if they look like doing something. Until then I will pay attention to the politicians who may change something.


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    #1387
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Yes the Seanad's powers are very limited, but there are enough (too many) social conservatives in there already without the NUI panel adding to their number.

    If Maynooth wasn't an NUI college Mullen would have a much harder time getting in...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1388
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Why look on? They aren't going to make a blind bit of difference either way. It really is like a student election. All full of promises about what they will do without the position any power. Sure the TDs lie to get into power but at least it is theoretically possible for them to do something useful.

    They are cranks with a salary for being cranks. Sure they debated about ssm but no one payed attention. Then Labour made it an issue to get into government with fine gael last time out and then we had the vote.

    Feel free to contact me if they look like doing something. Until then I will pay attention to the politicians who may change something.

    Ronan Mullan wouldn't have half the media influence he has without his Senate seat .


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    #1389
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    marienbad wrote: »
    Ronan Mullan wouldn't have half the media influence he has without his Senate seat .

    Chances are he'd get a column in the Irish Catholic, Catholic Voice or some other ultramontane rag.


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    #1390
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Chances are he'd get a column in the Irish Catholic, Catholic Voice or some other ultramontane rag.

    Indeed ,but there he would be preaching to the converted , but not on Rte radio and television morning noon and night .

    On the other he is a great ad for agnosticism


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    #1391
    mansize
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    marienbad wrote: »
    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Chances are he'd get a column in the Irish Catholic, Catholic Voice or some other ultramontane rag.

    Indeed ,but there he would be preaching to the converted , but not on Rte radio and television morning noon and night .

    On the other he is a great ad for agnosticism
    Add your reply here.

    Like David Quinn... He's not elected


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    #1392
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    marienbad wrote: »
    I also voted for it to be abolished , and if that had happened then most would revert to just being cranks , now because people think it is beneath them to vote we end up with cranks with megaphones and legitimacy .

    And the rest of us with no vote have to just look on .

    I voted against abolition for the simple reason that it is the only, albeit often toothless, check on the Dáil - particularity in light of the 'government' consisting of The Gang of Four and so much legislation being whipped through the guillotine I felt any check , albeit often toothless, was better than none at all which was what was on offer.

    I want to see a Seanad with genuine powers to call the Dáil to task not an already unaccountable Dáil with even greater powers in fewer hands.


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    #1393
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I want to see a Seanad with genuine powers to call the Dáil to task not an already unaccountable Dáil with even greater powers in fewer hands.
    All very laudable, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is no point in any country having two parliaments.

    "Checks and balances" to govt. power are necessary, but the established way of doing this in a republic is to give the President executive power to implement the laws, while the legislature writes the laws. As in France, or the USA where Congress balances the White House.

    As we have chosen against this model, we only have effective checks on the govt. at those rare times when the govt. has insufficient numbers to fully control and sideline the Dail.
    As it happens, that time is now.


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    #1394
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    The bigger issue is actually the highly dysfunctional lower house and it's lack of ability to hold the executive to any kind of account.

    That needs simple, but serious reform. The current standing orders haven't been very good for democracy.


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    #1395
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    While we continue to have a Dail elected on the basis of parochial, local and often very minor issues, there is an argument for a second chamber elected on the basis of regional or national constituencies and allowing for the election of those not prepared to play the pointless gombeen knocking on doors and going to funerals game.

    The current Seanad is not that, but the university panels are the closest thing to that. David Norris for instance has made a great contribution to national politics but would have little or no chance of ever being elected to the Dail.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1396
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    Doesn't have to be a second chamber you can have multiple constituency types in one chamber.


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    #1397
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Or a list system of PR


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    #1398
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    12Phase wrote: »
    Doesn't have to be a second chamber you can have multiple constituency types in one chamber.

    So we get a minority of 'non-constituency' TDs in the Dail, with no influence.

    marienbad wrote: »
    Or a list system of PR

    A list system is great in theory; in practice the worst sort of party hacks will be on the list without an original thought in their head.

    A second chamber has at least the possibility of not acting in the government's pre-determined interest and giving them something to think about, or useful amendments etc.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1399
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »



    A list system is great in theory; in practice the worst sort of party hacks will be on the list without an original thought in their head.

    You mean even worse than party hacks we are already saddled with ?

    At list the list system frees us somewhat from the fixing the potholes brigade


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    #1400
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    marienbad wrote: »
    You mean even worse than party hacks we are already saddled with ?

    At list the list system frees us somewhat from the fixing the potholes brigade

    But the party hacks we have now were individually elected - even a popular party can see locally unpopular candidates rejected. A list system means that candidates presented by the party get elected in proportion to their national vote - voters have no veto over list candidates however odious they are.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #1401
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    David Norris for instance has made a great contribution to national politics but would have little or no chance of ever being elected to the Dail.
    Its funny how every defence of the Seanad always ends up citing David Norris. If he dies, there will be no justification at all left for it.

    BTW I'd say he would have a very good chance of election to the Dail. Maybe not at the start of his career, but nowadays he would. But hey, that's democracy for you.

    If you voted in the referendum to retain the Seanad, and then voted in their elections, ask yourself this question; is there a little part of you that likes the idea that you are voting in an election that the other half of the country are not allowed to vote in?

    This idea that the university panels and their electorate know better than everybody else is annoying to, well... everybody else.


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    #1402
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    But the party hacks we have now were individually elected - even a popular party can see locally unpopular candidates rejected. A list system means that candidates presented by the party get elected in proportion to their national vote - voters have no veto over list candidates however odious they are.

    Yeah ,I know how it works .

    At least with a list system you have some corrective to candidates within the same constituency vying to outbid each on local isssues , even when they are in the same party.


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    #1403
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    Its funny how every defence of the Seanad always ends up citing David Norris. If he dies, there will be no justification at all left for it.

    BTW I'd say he would have a very good chance of election to the Dail. Maybe not at the start of his career, but nowadays he would. But hey, that's democracy for you.

    He'd only have a chance of Dail election because of his long and distinguished Seanad career, you prove my point.
    If you voted in the referendum to retain the Seanad, and then voted in their elections, ask yourself this question; is there a little part of you that likes the idea that you are voting in an election that the other half of the country are not allowed to vote in?

    This idea that the university panels and their electorate know better than everybody else is annoying to, well... everybody else.

    Yes voted to retain it and voted in the TCD panel - but exclusivity is not appealing to me, the national constituency and lack of localism is, as a counterweight (albeit limited) to the Dail.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1404
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    He'd only have a chance of Dail election because of his long and distinguished Seanad career, you prove my point.
    He strikes me as the kind of guy who would have been "in the public eye" one way or another. If the people thought highly of him, they would vote him in.


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    #1405
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    recedite wrote: »
    All very laudable, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is no point in any country having two parliaments.

    "Checks and balances" to govt. power are necessary, but the established way of doing this in a republic is to give the President executive power to implement the laws, while the legislature writes the laws. As in France, or the USA where Congress balances the White House.

    As we have chosen against this model, we only have effective checks on the govt. at those rare times when the govt. has insufficient numbers to fully control and sideline the Dail.
    As it happens, that time is now.

    In the abolition referendum we were not offered the options of different trees to bark up. It was a stark choice between the sliver birch of stay or the ash of go.
    Vague promises of a rowan of reform at some point or other in the as yet undefined future were mentioned but as so many many governmental promises of reform turned to sawdust I, personally, wasn't prepared to risk a treehouse legislature on them.


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    #1406
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The current Seanad is not that, but the university panels are the closest thing to that. David Norris for instance has made a great contribution to national politics but would have little or no chance of ever being elected to the Dail.

    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/


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    #1407
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too). http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/
    I thought it was TCD paying him the disability pension? From an income protection insurance fund?


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    #1408
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Absolam wrote: »
    I thought it was TCD paying him the disability pension? From an income protection insurance fund?

    Where does TCD get funding to pay their insurance premiums from?


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    #1409
    sassyj
    Registered Users Posts: 733 ✭✭✭sassyj


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Where does TCD get funding to pay their insurance premiums from?
    Not sure about Trinity's pension arrangements, but with my pension, fees are taken from my contributions and pay income protection insurance


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    #1410
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,641 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    Not this shi'ite again. Norris paid for an income protection plan out of his salary himself.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1411
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    Pretty underhanded to go after a person due to health issues they have, the chap was perfectly entitled to it.

    You keep on grasping eh


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