Repair after timing belt failure....pic heavy.

Slidey

Nice thread Doc, took a while to load with my crappy broadband but well written and photographed.

Mar4ix

nice work, just wondering, how much did it cost to complete .. parts, head skimming, headgasket kit.. etc... to compare of costs of used engine from scrapyard. ??

Mar4ix

nice work, just wondering, how much did it cost to complete .. parts, head skimming, headgasket kit.. etc... to compare of costs of used engine from scrapyard. ??

Nissan doctor

Mar4ix wrote: »

nice work, just wondering, how much did it cost to complete .. parts, head skimming, headgasket kit.. etc... to compare of costs of used engine from scrapyard. ??

Depending on the engine, the cost can sometimes be close to what you'd pay for a cheap second hand engine....but I'd always recommend repairing as you then have an engine(or head at least) is as new condition rather then and engine of unknown history/condition.

Discodog

I did the same on my petrol Freelander - the tensioner went on the 23rd of Dec so too late to get parts before the Christmas close down. I managed to get all the parts on ebay & I didn't need a head skim as I had replaced the head gasket before.

I had to replace 10 valves (out of 16). Lapping didn't take long. About 2 mins each with the coarse paste & then fine. The total cost was about €120 for valves, belt, tensioner, gasket etc. Really nice feeling when it started first time but then grief as I discovered that the belt was rubbing on the cover. Oh & I managed to use a g clamp as a valve spring compressor by making an adaptor out of a bit of gas pipe.

It turned out that the rear belt cover had become distorted & cracked. I am now running cambelt exposed racing style until I can get around to stripping everything back off to fit the cover.

Unless you know what you are doing don't buy it unless Haynes do a workshop manual for it

By the way I am definitely getting one of those nylon brushes.

Mar4ix

Discodog wrote: »

I did the same on my petrol Freelander - the tensioner went on the 23rd of Dec so too late to get parts before the Christmas close down. I managed to get all the parts on ebay & I didn't need a head skim as I had replaced the head gasket before. .......

......By the way I am definitely getting one of those nylon brushes.

hmmm... i thought engine head must be skimmed every time, when been off engine... :cool:

edit... hope you put new headgasket anyway.

Nissan doctor

Discodog wrote: »

I did the same on my petrol Freelander - the tensioner went on the 23rd of Dec so too late to get parts before the Christmas close down. I managed to get all the parts on ebay & I didn't need a head skim as I had replaced the head gasket before.

I had to replace 10 valves (out of 16). Lapping didn't take long. About 2 mins each with the coarse paste & then fine. The total cost was about €120 for valves, belt, tensioner, gasket etc. Really nice feeling when it started first time but then grief as I discovered that the belt was rubbing on the cover. Oh & I managed to use a g clamp as a valve spring compressor by making an adaptor out of a bit of gas pipe.

It turned out that the rear belt cover had become distorted & cracked. I am now running cambelt exposed racing style until I can get around to stripping everything back off to fit the cover.

Unless you know what you are doing don't buy it unless Haynes do a workshop manual for it

By the way I am definitely getting one of those nylon brushes.

The replacement valve guides bump the price up a bit as you're looking at approx €150 to have that done alone.

I would also always use a full headset rather then just a head gasket on its own.

Did you not replace the head bolts when you refitted the head? Big no no to reuse head bolts on the rover K series especially. Did you use the required multi layer head gasket and replacement oil rail/ladder? Its not a permanent repair if you didn't:eek:

Mar4ix

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Depending on the engine, the cost can sometimes be close to what you'd pay for a cheap second hand engine....but I'd always recommend repairing as you then have an engine(or head at least) is as new condition rather then and engine of unknown history/condition.

agree... when i was doing my punto engine, everyone said, that cheaper is change an engine, but would it be better ? spend around 250 (full set rings, big end bearings, engine head skim and test, headgasket kit with new bolts) if i am planing drive it for another 2 - 3years. ... body very good condition, very little rust, need to do some treatment, some rust prevention.

Discodog

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The replacement valve guides bump the price up a bit as you're looking at approx €150 to have that done alone.

I would also always use a full headset rather then just a head gasket on its own.

Did you not replace the head bolts when you refitted the head? Big no no to reuse head bolts on the rover K series especially. Did you use the required multi layer head gasket and replacement oil rail/ladder? Its not a permanent repair if you didn't:eek:

The head was replaced with a full recon head only 6000 miles before this failure. At that time I replaced the oil rail & yes of course I used a proper MLS. The head bolts were well within their stretch limits - I checked them but it's still horrible doing the final torquing.

One of the reasons why this engine is easy to work on are the amazing Landrover forums. One guy had posted a thread like this with about 40 photos - it really helped. The other "trick" is to go through all the forums & the manual & write up the order that you will do each task & what spanner sizes etc you will need, torques, special tips etc. Then you are only referring to one sheet as you work.

john reilly

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Depending on the engine, the cost can sometimes be close to what you'd pay for a cheap second hand engine....but I'd always recommend repairing as you then have an engine(or head at least) is as new condition rather then and engine of unknown history/condition.

yes but if the timing belt hadnt broken it would not have required any work. considering it was only really repairing the head this engine will only be as good as it was before

Discodog

Mar4ix wrote: »

hmmm... i thought engine head must be skimmed every time, when been off engine... :cool:

If the engine had overheated due to HG failure then I would of needed a skim & it would of been cheaper to replace the head. When the previous head failed it was way cheaper to buy a recon head for £250 off ebay. This time it was cheaper & quicker (due to delivery times & Xmas) to replace the valves.

Nissan doctor

john reilly wrote: »

yes but if the timing belt hadnt broken it would not have required any work. considering it was only really repairing the head this engine will only be as good as it was before

The head is as good as brand new, all wearable items have been replaced. The only major engine wearable items which are left un-touched are the rings and bearings, which unless your engine is high milage and you manage to find a genuine low mileage replacement, will be in the same condition in a second hand engine as they are in the current engine.

Nissan doctor

Discodog wrote: »

If the engine had overheated due to HG failure then I would of needed a skim & it would of been cheaper to replace the head. When the previous head failed it was way cheaper to buy a recon head for £250 off ebay. This time it was cheaper & quicker (due to delivery times & Xmas) to replace the valves.

A head skim is only about €50, no reason at all to replace the head unless it has cracked.

Discodog

I agree. I could of bought a second hand head but I knew that the existing one was good so why take a chance. Like ND I now know that the top end of the engine is fine.

Warning - there is a world of difference doing this as a job or on a spare hobby car. I did it in the drive & my utility room on my only car - that's when it gets a bit scary :eek:

Nissan doctor

Mar4ix wrote: »

hmmm... i thought engine head must be skimmed every time, when been off engine... :cool:

edit... hope you put new headgasket anyway.

The head only needs to be skimmed if it has warped which only really happens after over heating.

If the head is off due to non cooling related issues then a good clean is all that's needed, although you would always check it with a straight edge and feeler gauge to be sure.

Discodog

Nissan doctor wrote: »

A head skim is only about €50, no reason at all to replace the head unless it has cracked.

I was quoted €140 for a skim plus pressure test & the buggers quoted a two week turnaround !

Mar4ix

Discodog wrote: »

I was quoted €140 for a skim plus pressure test & the buggers quoted a two week turnaround !

Jasus ... some chancers there... had to ask question "where to.. " here in forum... i have done engine head and pressure test for 70 ... in Glasnevin industrial estate.

Discodog

Nissan doctor wrote: »

you would always check it with a straight edge and feeler gauge to be sure.

When the cambelt was rubbing I had to be sure that all the cogs were lined up as the belt was tracking towards the rear of the cogs. I ended up sticking a big sheet of paper on the inside of the bonnet & holding a little laser level on the cogs. By marking the lazer line & rotating the cogs I was able to see that everything was perfectly lined up.

Nissan doctor

Discodog wrote: »

I was quoted €140 for a skim plus pressure test & the buggers quoted a two week turnaround !

Christ, I've never had to wait any more then a day or two for head work. €140 isn't the worst and still much cheaper then a replacement head surely?

Discodog

Mar4ix wrote: »

Jasus ... some chancers there... had to ask question "where to.. " here in forum... i have done engine head and pressure test for 70 ... in Glasnevin industrial estate.

I was told that the closest to Galway was an outfit in Mayo. I would also have to pay to get the head up there & back. I think the cost depends on who is asking but when it's your only vehicle time becomes important as well.

The result is that I may end up keeping the jeep for longer than planned. I really want to find a classic that can be easily worked on. I would love to avoid the dreaded car tax & NCT. If only old Landrover weren't rust buckets !

Nissan doctor

Discodog wrote: »

When the cambelt was rubbing I had to be sure that all the cogs were lined up as the belt was tracking towards the rear of the cogs. I ended up sticking a big sheet of paper on the inside of the bonnet & holding a little laser level on the cogs. By marking the lazer line & rotating the cogs I was able to see that everything was perfectly lined up.

The straight edge and feeler gauge is to check that the head surface and block deck are perfectly flat:P

Discodog

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Christ, I've never had to wait any more then a day or two for head work. €140 isn't the worst and still much cheaper then a replacement head surely?

The previous time the head was £250 inc postage. It came from a specialist K series head recon company in the UK Midlands.

Mar4ix

Discodog wrote: »

I was told that the closest to Galway was an outfit in Mayo. I would also have to pay to get the head up there & back. I think the cost depends on who is asking but when it's your only vehicle time becomes important as well.

The result is that I may end up keeping the jeep for longer than planned. I really want to find a classic that can be easily worked on. I would love to avoid the dreaded car tax & NCT. If only old Landrover weren't rust buckets !

If you would come over to Dublin with bus or train , in morning, youd get your head in evening... it happened to me last time, drop fiats head in morning, at 5pm took it off.... same day turn around..... well... next time youll know what to do ... probably just need call them first (some times they quiet busy) , just to get book in .. i think 16 valve engines was 20 quid more(all in)... if i am not mistaken, dont know can i post that company here, also not paid for that :P , but if interested, i can pm details. .

Discodog

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The straight edge and feeler gauge is to check that the head surface and block deck are perfectly flat:P

My mate helped me the first time that I replaced the head. He is an ex Landrover engineer who worked at the factory when mine was built - so I blame him ! Rumour has it that the proper MLS gasket is quite accommodating with uneven heads - but I wouldn't rely on that. The odd thing is how that pathetic bit of aluminium oil rail makes such a difference.

But the good thing is the availability of advice & parts. That is going to be a key factor in my next motor.

Discodog

Mar4ix wrote: »

. next time youll know what to do .

Yep scrap the car - I have taken the head off twice & that's enough

Nissan doctor

Discodog wrote: »

My mate helped me the first time that I replaced the head. He is an ex Landrover engineer who worked at the factory when mine was built - so I blame him ! Rumour has it that the proper MLS gasket is quite accommodating with uneven heads - but I wouldn't rely on that. The odd thing is how that pathetic bit of aluminium oil rail makes such a difference.

But the good thing is the availability of advice & parts. That is going to be a key factor in my next motor.

That's the problem, the rail distorts leading to the head bolts not tightening properly.

Mar4ix

Discodog wrote: »

Yep scrap the car - I have taken the head off twice & that's enough

well, an engine failure wouldnt be a reason scrap the car, a specially for people who knows how to fix them, .... but Rover ... hmmmm my wifes rover went to scrappage scheme 2 years ago, .... as it failed on everything ... headgasket twice within a year..... (properly skimmed and torqued and new bolts.. etc.)... with all new ancillaries ... ok i got it for 70 euro... but it doesnt mean it shall fail on everything.. rimmersbros probably still remembers my name :pac:

rover will be last car on earth what ill buy. :pac:

Discodog

I would love a classic Landrover & would happily offset the cost of maintaining it against the lack of tax & NCT. Parts are plentiful & relatively cheap. There is also a wealth of online knowledge. But the feckers rust & I live by the sea :eek:

trixyben

when buying a used cylinder head that is undamaged is there any other prep work you would do to it before installing?

Discodog

There are two types of head. One that has been reconditioned & one that hasn't. The first costs more but it arrives ready to fit. Depending on the supplier it may have had valves, springs, seals replaced but in any event in should of been skimmed & pressure tested. A "scrap" head will be cheaper, but unless there is proof of testing, you won't know if the head is pressure tight or warped. That's why ND & I would both prefer to rebuild a head that we know is OK rather than taking a chance on one that might not be.

You would certainly want to check that all the valves are good & the guides/seals. You don't want to put it all back together & then find a problem. Don't forget the camshaft oil seals & check the surface for warping. The other key is cleanliness. The surface of the head & the block need to be totally free of any deposits.

Gary ITR

It's always been a case of better the devil you know for me tbh. I find lapping in valves very therapeutic. I spent hours and hours doing the valves on my race build

Discodog

Gary ITR wrote: »

I find lapping in valves very therapeutic.

We know where to send the cylinder heads lads

The worse bit is when the cup refuses to stick to the valve & comes off just as you are getting in rhythm. If you do lots then it gets easier but for many of us it might be many years between grinds :pac:

A lot of people over do it. You only need a couple of mms of ground surface.

trixyben

Discodog wrote: »

There are two types of head. One that has been reconditioned & one that hasn't. The first costs more but it arrives ready to fit. Depending on the supplier it may have had valves, springs, seals replaced but in any event in should of been skimmed & pressure tested. A "scrap" head will be cheaper, but unless there is proof of testing, you won't know if the head is pressure tight or warped. That's why ND & I would both prefer to rebuild a head that we know is OK rather than taking a chance on one that might not be.

You would certainly want to check that all the valves are good & the guides/seals. You don't want to put it all back together & then find a problem. Don't forget the camshaft oil seals & check the surface for warping. The other key is cleanliness. The surface of the head & the block need to be totally free of any deposits.

so are you saying you would only use a reconditioned head in any case?

I can why if that is the case as it would be a complete waste of time if a salvage one was warped or cracked etc but id say your chances of getting one of thse has to be small?? or would you prefer ust not to chance it?

jayok

Sorry to interrupt the thread flow.... but @Nissan Doctor. Brilliant post, I found it most informative for me. Thank you for taking the time.

lostboy

would this sort of a failure be able to seize the engine in any case?

jayok

Discodog wrote: »

The worse bit is when the cup refuses to stick to the valve & comes off just as you are getting in rhythm. If you do lots then it gets easier but for many of us it might be many years between grinds :pac:

Must resist the slagging with the sexual innuendo from this...

Nissan doctor

lostboy wrote: »

would this sort of a failure be able to seize the engine in any case?

There is nothing in the action of a timing belt failure that could seize the engine.

trixyben

Nissan doctor wrote: »

There is nothing in the action of a timing belt failure that could seize the engine.

In the case where the engine has been overheated due to no water in system what exactly is damaged here?

Im guessing the piston/rods/bearings are ruined?? if so would you take on to replace if possible or a replacement engine the better way to go?

Nissan doctor

trixyben wrote: »

In the case where the engine has been overheated due to no water in system what exactly is damaged here?

Im guessing the piston/rods/bearings are ruined?? if so would you take on to replace if possible or a replacement engine the better way to go?

It depends entirely on the extent of the over heating. In order to cause damage to the pistons/bores etc then you would have to have an engine constantly over heating or continue driving the car while its over heating, this would cause the block to expand to the point where there isn't enough clearance for the pistons to move.
Things like the block being made of aluminium or cast iron or if the block is an open deck or semi closed deck also effect its ability to deal with excess temps.

Generally though, the head gasket is the first component to fail if over heating has occurred.


As for repair or second hand if pistons etc are damaged....well again it depends on the engine. New replacement pistons/rods etc plus all related parts/labour will easily come to more then the price of a second hand engine for most common cars.
The clincher is often if the crank is damaged or not, new cranks are very expensive, normally well over 1k for this alone so if the crank is damaged then a replacement engine is normally the only cost effective option.

trixyben

Nissan doctor wrote: »

It depends entirely on the extent of the over heating. In order to cause damage to the pistons/bores etc then you would have to have an engine constantly over heating or continue driving the car while its over heating, this would cause the block to expand to the point where there isn't enough clearance for the pistons to move.
Things like the block being made of aluminium or cast iron or if the block is an open deck or semi closed deck also effect its ability to deal with excess temps.

Generally though, the head gasket is the first component to fail if over heating has occurred.


As for repair or second hand if pistons etc are damaged....well again it depends on the engine. New replacement pistons/rods etc plus all related parts/labour will easily come to more then the price of a second hand engine for most common cars.
The clincher is often if the crank is damaged or not, new cranks are very expensive, normally well over 1k for this alone so if the crank is damaged then a replacement engine is normally the only cost effective option.

while back one of our vans were drove for some distance while the system was bone dry, the lad driving only noticed as the steam was really coming from under the bonnet when he slowed up, temp was at max on dash, he pulled up and stopped the van and filled with water, engine wouldnt start again...

if the engine was left to run and water put in would that have made any difference in this case? or would enough damaged been already done the block would you say?

-Corkie-

If your work is anything like the way this thread is wrote you must be outstanding at your work.

Great thread I really enjoyed it..

Nissan doctor

trixyben wrote: »

while back one of our vans were drove for some distance while the system was bone dry, the lad driving only noticed as the steam was really coming from under the bonnet when he slowed up, temp was at max on dash, he pulled up and stopped the van and filled with water, engine wouldnt start again...

if the engine was left to run and water put in would that have made any difference in this case? or would enough damaged been already done the block would you say?

If it had a leak or whatever and was kept topped up then chances are it would have been repairable. But even leaks can slowly cause damage as they can prevent the cooling system from pressurising properly. (the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point)

You'd have to wonder what sort of brain donor could drive for long enough to cause that damage without realising that the gauge/lights/lack of power/lack of interior heating/steam/engine noise etc was telling him something!:rolleyes:

SteelyDanJalapeno

My belt snapped recently, Cracked one of the cams clean in 2

Nissan doctor

TiltedBrain wrote: »

My belt snapped recently, Cracked one of the cams clean in 2

What car/engine?

SteelyDanJalapeno

Nissan doctor wrote: »

What car/engine?

It was a 2000 corrolla h/b, Peugeot 1.9 diesel engine in it thou, same block from a partner I'd assume.

I was in traffic at time, some noise bang out of it! I had a local mechanic sort it for me, salvaged parts from a Partner thou to keep costs down, think he charged me 400 - 500 in the end

Nissan doctor

TiltedBrain wrote: »

It was a 2000 corrolla h/b, Peugeot 1.9 diesel engine in it thou, same block from a partner I'd assume.

I was in traffic at time, some noise bang out of it! I had a local mechanic sort it for me, salvaged parts from a Partner thou to keep costs down, think he charged me 400 - 500 in the end

Sounds very strange, the cost of fitting the Peugeot engine into the Corolla and making it function correctly would be more then the value of either car or engine.

The only way that damage to the cam would be possible would be if the valve was driven up into the head, through the cam followers/lifters and into the cam and this could only happen at high RPM and would damage much more then just the valve and cam.

I'd suspect much more to that then a simple timing belt failure TBH.

SteelyDanJalapeno

I would of presume the belt is under most strain while coming from stopped to moving like pulling off from a traffic light?!

Just on the engine, Toyota couldnt meet the emmisions regulations at the time, the Peugeot engine is in all the diesel type Corrollas for that period afaik

Owen

Honestly, I think this is the very best thread I've ever seen in the Motors Forum. Well, apart from BMW535d, but this is outstanding. Best How-To on here by far! :cool:

Nissan doctor

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I would of presume the belt is under most strain while coming from stopped to moving like pulling off from a traffic light?!

Just on the engine, Toyota couldnt meet the emmisions regulations at the time, the Peugeot engine is in all the diesel type Corrollas for that period afaik

I stand corrected, it seems they did use the peugeot engine for a year until they finished developing their 2.0d4d.

The belt is rotating the whole time once the engine is running. Its actually under most strain when starting the engine as it has no momentum to aid its rotation. Even though the engine is under load when pulling away from lights, the RPM is still low so the upward speed of the piston is still unlikely to hit the valve hard enough to drive it up into the cam. IMO anyway.

trixyben

Nissan doctor wrote: »

If it had a leak or whatever and was kept topped up then chances are it would have been repairable. But even leaks can slowly cause damage as they can prevent the cooling system from pressurising properly. (the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point)

You'd have to wonder what sort of brain donor could drive for long enough to cause that damage without realising that the gauge/lights/lack of power/lack of interior heating/steam/engine noise etc was telling him something!:rolleyes:

still cant understand today how he didnt see the temp gauge and lights on the dash etc, ah well these things happen and happen more so when someone is driving someone elses motor!!!