can farming pay without sfp

yog1

if someone was to approach you with a deal where you get the use of 71 acer's of hill grazing and 12 acer of mountain heather, with 90 ewe's and 7 cows (6 or witch are in calf) on it, there is also enough housing for the animals on the farm also
in exchange they keep the sfp, would you go for it, could you make money???????
the basic deal would be you are given the land and the animals and whatever you make off them is yours,

you would

• feed
• doce
• maintain the quality and quantity of said animals
• maintain the boundrys
• apply spray that would be supplied by the owner
• use "good farming practice" (whatever that means)
• you would put out the slury and fertiize the land
• cut the silage
• any other usual cost involved in farming

in return the owner gets to keep the spf and lfa, the owner would also have a plan in place where a percentage of the ground would be re-seeded every year, and enough spray supplied to cover on average 33% of the ground every year, witch would be apply'd by the tenant

it is hill ground that needs work, a lot of spraying and most of it would need re seeded

could it work, would both people make enough money to make it worth while, or how could it be set up so it could be made work

HillFarmer

If it can be reseeded then it must be of ok quality.

When you say hill grazing I was pictured peaty stone ground that would cost a fortune to reseed.

It also depends on the type of anumal and inputs.
Scottish blackface ewes crossing with maybe texel or Border Leceister to produce mules.

As reagrds cows, shorthorn or angus with limited feeding with Lim bull.

Your not going to make a alot I can tell you that.

yog1

HillFarmer wrote: »

If it can be reseeded then it must be of ok quality.

When you say hill grazing I was pictured peaty stone ground that would cost a fortune to reseed.

It also depends on the type of anumal and inputs.
Scottish blackface ewes crossing with maybe texel or Border Leceister to produce mules.

As reagrds cows, shorthorn or angus with limited feeding with Lim bull.

Your not going to make a alot I can tell you that.

about 15-18 acer is what you describe, it was dug over 20yr ago so shouldn't be that bad, the rest would be good hill land, witch used to be used for silage back when i was at school,
ewe's are texel cross, and cows are mostly lim, shorthorn, or blue's cross's coming to lim bull,
most of the ground is grazable but just needs new grass to make it more useful

yog1

320 views and nobody thinks thinks that any money could be made if they were given land and stock for nothing, how do men who pay to rent land make any money,

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

johngalway

You might turn a profit, I don't think you'll make a living. My 40 ewes are eating a bag of ewe & lamb ration every other day, plus a bale of hay, so €8.90 per day for 42 days before lambing. Then they'll have grass + feed for a while after lambing, probably for a month. €8.90 x 42 days = €373.80, then €7.50 x 30 = €225, add'em up €598.80 just on feed.

Then 10 50kg bags of 18.6.12 and 6 50kg bags of 0.7.30 fertilizer for my few acres, not priced yet but I imagine in or around €400.

Then vaccinations, worm dose, fluke dose, pour ons, ringer/rings, cobalt/bolus, foot spray, iodine, spectam, grovite maybe, marking fluid, alamycin etc.

Few bags of milk replacer, colostrum, lamb creep.

Tools and material (expensive).

Who covers the cost of the spraying and reseeding? Presume you do the work.

Diesel? Or contractor fees.

Then you've whatever costs associated with the cattle which I know damn all about so won't comment.

I think you'd want every ewe to be having twins of very good quality, and high quality, perhaps niche cattle turning a high profit.

What happens when/if prices crash? It's not very long ago I was getting less than half the price for the same lambs I sold last year.

You will need to be exceptionally severe in controlling costs, I'm not sure I'd take up the offer.

Oh yes, don't forget nice Mr Tax Man, your accountant, perhaps an advisor?, and other easily missed costs.

Tipp Man

you could make a couple of thousand profit on what you have described if you didn't have to deal with the reseeding.

Reseeding is very expensive so will drain your finances for a couple of years

At the current stocking levels I don't think you could not make a living, if you want to increase stocking levels bear in mind just how expensive stock is at the moment

yog1

Tipp Man wrote: »

you could make a couple of thousand profit on what you have described if you didn't have to deal with the reseeding.

Reseeding is very expensive so will drain your finances for a couple of years

At the current stocking levels I don't think you could not make a living, if you want to increase stocking levels bear in mind just how expensive stock is at the moment

the land owner would do the reseeding,
the spray would be supplied and the tenant would ask'd to apply
the main reason for the stock would be when the new payment method is announced it might be on the number of stock kept, nobody knows what method is going to be used to calculate any payments,

yog1

johngalway wrote: »

You might turn a profit, I don't think you'll make a living. My 40 ewes are eating a bag of ewe & lamb ration every other day, plus a bale of hay, so €8.90 per day for 42 days before lambing. Then they'll have grass + feed for a while after lambing, probably for a month. €8.90 x 42 days = €373.80, then €7.50 x 30 = €225, add'em up €598.80 just on feed.

Then 10 50kg bags of 18.6.12 and 6 50kg bags of 0.7.30 fertilizer for my few acres, not priced yet but I imagine in or around €400.

Then vaccinations, worm dose, fluke dose, pour ons, ringer/rings, cobalt/bolus, foot spray, iodine, spectam, grovite maybe, marking fluid, alamycin etc.

Few bags of milk replacer, colostrum, lamb creep.

Tools and material (expensive).

Who covers the cost of the spraying and reseeding? Presume you do the work.

Diesel? Or contractor fees.

Then you've whatever costs associated with the cattle which I know damn all about so won't comment.

I think you'd want every ewe to be having twins of very good quality, and high quality, perhaps niche cattle turning a high profit.

What happens when/if prices crash? It's not very long ago I was getting less than half the price for the same lambs I sold last year.

You will need to be exceptionally severe in controlling costs, I'm not sure I'd take up the offer.

Oh yes, don't forget nice Mr Tax Man, your accountant, perhaps an advisor?, and other easily missed costs.

its not intended to make a living, it is to run along with the farm the purposed tenant who farms 70 ewes next door, he already takes land for the beef cattle he keeps

Username John

Ah - the tenant already has 70 ewes next door - then I would be inclined to go for it...

But...

I am a bit confused as to how it would re the stock? The current stock stay in the owners herd number? You supply replacements from existing flock & sell culls + offspring & keep the money?

You would also want to see what the long term plan is. I can see the owner wants to guarantee his payments, by keeping animals on his herd number. But what happens when the payment debacle is sorted, you don't want them coming to you saying "right, I want to get an official tenant now, you're out"
You'd want to protect yourself and know where you stand...

blue5000

OP are the stock staying in the owners herd number? What happens if you expand suckler cows or ewes and some sort of headage kicks in over the next few years? Agree with what was said above you won't have much money for yourself if you are reseeding and trying to expand stock nos.

yog1

Username John wrote: »

Ah - the tenant already has 70 ewes next door - then I would be inclined to go for it...

But...

I am a bit confused as to how it would re the stock? The current stock stay in the owners herd number? You supply replacements from existing flock & sell culls + offspring & keep the money?

You would also want to see what the long term plan is. I can see the owner wants to guarantee his payments, by keeping animals on his herd number. But what happens when the payment debacle is sorted, you don't want them coming to you saying "right, I want to get an official tenant now, you're out"
You'd want to protect yourself and know where you stand...

i am the land owner, i want to know how to make it work for both me and my neighbour, i dont know what you mean by an "official tenant" can you explain

yog1

blue5000 wrote: »

OP are the stock staying in the owners herd number? What happens if you expand suckler cows or ewes and some sort of headage kicks in over the next few years? Agree with what was said above you won't have much money for yourself if you are reseeding and trying to expand stock nos.

there seems to be a bit of confusion over who reseeds the ground,

the land owner does the reseeding, it doesnt cost the tenant anything to reseed, all i'd want is for them to maintain the boundary's round the field, i wouldn't want them to be putting up new fences just keep the old ones till i get round to re fencing them myself, expanding the stock numbers would be something that would have to be talk's about, i would like the option of putting more stock on when the reseed plan is under way with the tenants permission

blue5000

Sounds very messy to me. What exactly do you want?

1. You say you own the land, yet you want to rent it to next door.
2. You want it reseeded. you'll pay for this.
3. You want to keep any entitlements, and possible future direct payments
4. You want the bounds fenced
5. You can't decide what to do with stock on it.
6. And you want us to advise you??:pac:

Username John

yog1 wrote: »

i am the land owner, i want to know how to make it work for both me and my neighbour, i dont know what you mean by an "official tenant" can you explain

Ah - I hadn't realized you were the landowner.

What I meant was this agreement sounds like it would be an unofficial sort of arrangement, which could mean one or both parties could change their mind last minute. That's what I meant...
But maybe I was wrong to assume it would be unofficial... :P

leg wax

i think you are looking for a farm manager of sorts,thats what it looks like to me.i dont see why you would reseed it and then not look after the fences aswell ,are you looking for rent for land that you have as its your stock that will be on it,and have to be looked after.this is a weird one that can get very very messy.

yog1

blue5000 wrote: »

Sounds very messy to me. What exactly do you want?

1. You say you own the land, yet you want to rent it to next door.yes i own it, i wouldn't take any payment off the neighbour to use it,
2. You want it reseeded. you'll pay for this.yes again
3. You want to keep any entitlements, and possible future direct payments this would be my payment for letting him use it
4. You want the bounds fenced i would be doing this
5. You can't decide what to do with stock on it.i want to keep the stock on it in case any future payment is based on it and once you sell the stock it would be very hard to get back up to the same numbers
6. And you want us to advise you??:pac:

still some confusion

yog1

leg wax wrote: »

i think you are looking for a farm manager of sorts,thats what it looks like to me.i dont see why you would reseed it and then not look after the fences aswell ,are you looking for rent for land that you have as its your stock that will be on it,and have to be looked after.this is a weird one that can get very very messy.

the neighbour keeps anything made from sales off stock after bill have been paid

blue5000

I think you are looking at a partnership so, for this to work I think you will have to run both farms as one unit.

maidhc

It can be done, although I can't say if it is being done by too many at the moment. I think it has the potential to work very well though.

A specimen agreement to deal with this situation of "shared farming" was drafted by Moorepark, and it is available here with more information:
http://www.teagasc.ie/advisory/share_farming/

Get legal advice first (but I would say that!!)