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7 year old daughter going on camping trip, but no mothers allowed?

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  • 13-03-2012 11:37pm
    #1
    Gaffer210304
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭


    Hi all,

    Just wanted some advice. I brought my daughter to her karate class tonight and at the end of the class the leader announced that they would be taking the children away on an overnight camping trip, however there would be no mothers allowed as ' the lads are better at that sort of thing', not an ounce of sarcasm. The leader corrected himself when his colleague gave him a look, saying it was the mams night off......
    I have two problems with this; firstly it is ridiculous to think that this should be a fathers only trip, I am the parent in my family who is more involved in outdoor activities, I work with young people and do this kind of thing for a living. ( her father has offered to go but is less keen on camping!) I feel it is crazy for the leader to be blatantly gender bias in front of the class made up of girls and boys.

    Secondly, although this is a voluntary organisation, surely child protection should ensure one of the leaders is female as there will be girls going on the trip, what about the girls using the toilet etc.?

    I am not an overprotective parent by any means and I always encourage my daughter to be independent,( she has no problem going without me)however I feel this is a particularly unusual request!

    Any opinions on this before I approach the leaders with my concerns?

    regards


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    #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    What do you mean the leader ''announced'' that the children were being taken away? Do you not have any choice in the matter? WTF has camping got to do with Karate?

    Tell ''the leader'' that as it's your child you will decide which parent goes.


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    #3
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    I'd be of the same thoughts as MagicMarker, what the hell do camping and karate have in common!? It'd be different if it were scouts or brownies or something but I really don't think I'd be sending my daughter on a camping trip run by karate instructors


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    #4
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    I think it is probably meant in the best possible way and they think thy are giving the mammies a night off and being all manly.
    Discuss it with the other mammies and tell them that you would prefer a mammy to go too and maybe 2 of you could go and enjoy your days but be there for the girls at night.


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    #5
    Lola92
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Lola92


    If you intend on letting your child to go on this trip I would be absolutely insistent on going and encourage every other mother to do the same.

    Personally, I would remove my child from that class and find an alternative. Children will witness enough gender biased rubbish in their lives without hearing it from extra-curriculum teachers too! I wonder are all the boys top of the karate class... coz, yano they're 'better at that sort of thing'. :mad:


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    #6
    berzo
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭berzo


    wow.. there is absolutely no way that i would let a child of mine away on a camping trip like this ...apart from gender issues...have the organisers got gardai clearance. I do think male and female supervisors/mothers/ fathers need to be in attendence in the event of illness or using the toilets.
    stick to your guns on this one


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    #7
    Gaffer210304
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Gaffer210304


    The Leader, my own choice of words, apologies - one of the guys that teachers the class, informed us of the upcoming trip at the end of class. The camping trip is a reward for the hard work the children have put in. It is optional. There are always additional events being run by the teachers. They have been very positive, well organised events, which the children love and they definitely encourage team work, bonding and add fun to the hard work.

    Usually the girls are treated as equally as the boys and the teachers are fantastic at giving encouragement. This is why I was so surprised...

    Thanks all for the advice, I will speak to the teachers to confirm I have understood correctly. My daughter will not be going unless there is a female adult present, preferably me!


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    #8
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Sounds like you may have got the wrong end of the stick. There must be female adults present if there are girls going - that's not optional. Child protection legislation must be followed. In fact under the most recent legislation you won't be allowed go unless you're garda vetted yourself.

    Wait and see what they say but I'll be amazed if your initial post is totally accurate.


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    #9
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    January wrote: »
    It'd be different if it were scouts or brownies

    Scouting Ireland has very strict rules regarding ratios of leaders:children and gender balance.


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    #10
    dreamers75
    Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    Orion wrote: »
    Scouting Ireland has very strict rules regarding ratios of leaders:children and gender balance.

    For a reason.


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    #11
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Yes - Child protection legislation. All youth organisations have the same rules.


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    #12
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Orion wrote: »
    Scouting Ireland has very strict rules regarding ratios of leaders:children and gender balance.

    This is why I mentioned it would be different if it were scouts, I'd be more comfortable because of their regulations, but just a random camping trip with karate instructors, no way Jóse!


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    #13
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Scouts are mixed now anyway.
    There is a group of scouts from my daughters troop going and I know they are currently looking for male volunteers to go with them because the troop is run by females and there are a few mothers going but no fathers as of yet.
    And they said they have to have fathers to sleep in with the boys in their tents etc.
    I wouldn't be too happy with my daughter heading off with a group of only male leaders. PLus what about the fathers who can't go? Or won't go? What are those kids meant to do.
    My own daughters father isn't involved and she'd feel like rubbish if it was a "daddy" trip and she was the lemon with no dad.


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    #14
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    ash23 wrote: »
    Scouts are mixed now anyway.
    There is a group of scouts from my daughters troop going and I know they are currently looking for male volunteers to go with them because the troop is run by females and there are a few mothers going but no fathers as of yet.
    And they said they have to have fathers to sleep in with the boys in their tents etc.

    That's all completely wrong and in breach of SI's child protection guidelines. Volunteers cannot go on overnight trips unless they are vetted for SI - male or female.
    And the leaders cannot sleep in the same tents as the children under any circumstances!
    This troop is leading itself open to big trouble tbh.


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    #15
    Cian92
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭Cian92


    Orion wrote: »
    That's all completely wrong and in breach of SI's child protection guidelines. Volunteers cannot go on overnight trips unless they are vetted for SI - male or female.
    And the leaders cannot sleep in the same tents as the children under any circumstances!
    This troop is leading itself open to big trouble tbh.

    You are completely correct Orion.


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    #16
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Orion wrote: »
    That's all completely wrong and in breach of SI's child protection guidelines. Volunteers cannot go on overnight trips unless they are vetted for SI - male or female.
    And the leaders cannot sleep in the same tents as the children under any circumstances!
    This troop is leading itself open to big trouble tbh.

    I don't know to be honest. It's a jamboree for scouts from all over Ireland. The leaders sent a text to all parents asking for male volunteers as they had enough females and needed males for the boys groups for arranging campsites and sleeping arrangements. I assumed there would be adults camping in with them as I wouldn't have thought they'd leave 30 plus kids alone in tents at night but maybe they do have the kids sharing tents alone while the leaders sleep nearby. I'm not sure which I'm less comfortable with to be honest.

    The trip isn't until June so perhaps they are planning on vetting the volunteers given the time frame.

    My daughter isn't going anyway as I'm not crazy about the idea of them going camping for 3 or more days. Plus it costs a fortune.


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    #17
    silly
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭silly


    Orion wrote: »
    ash23 wrote: »
    Scouts are mixed now anyway.
    There is a group of scouts from my daughters troop going and I know they are currently looking for male volunteers to go with them because the troop is run by females and there are a few mothers going but no fathers as of yet.
    And they said they have to have fathers to sleep in with the boys in their tents etc.

    That's all completely wrong and in breach of SI's child protection guidelines. Volunteers cannot go on overnight trips unless they are vetted for SI - male or female.
    And the leaders cannot sleep in the same tents as the children under any circumstances!
    This troop is leading itself open to big trouble tbh.
    +1. Parents can't go on any scout trips unless Garda vetted. And rightly so.
    It should apply to all club outings...


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    #18
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    silly wrote: »
    +1. Parents can't go on any scout trips unless Garda vetted. And rightly so.
    It should apply to all club outings...

    So if I wanted to, I as a parent can't accompany my child on a camping trip and sleep in the tent with my own child?

    Somehow that doesn't seem correct.


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    #19
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So if I wanted to, I as a parent can't accompany my child on a camping trip and sleep in the tent with my own child?

    Somehow that doesn't seem correct.

    you couldn't sleep in a tent with other children

    families obviously go camping together


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    #20
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    But what is the alternative?
    The kids all sleeping in tents alone and the supervisors in another?
    Genuinely curious in case she wants to go next year.

    If you've two tents of leaders and 8 tents of kids, would it not be very easy for them to sneak off at night (bearing in mind the groups going are aged 9 to 15).


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    #21
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    Not sure if you know how Garda vetting works but you need to be vetted separately for everywhere you work with children and it can take months to get.
    For example a play school teacher that runs a youth club needs separate vetting for both.
    It is fun at one stage I had vetting for 5 different places.


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    #22
    silly
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭silly


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    silly wrote: »
    +1. Parents can't go on any scout trips unless Garda vetted. And rightly so.
    It should apply to all club outings...

    So if I wanted to, I as a parent can't accompany my child on a camping trip and sleep in the tent with my own child?

    Somehow that doesn't seem correct.
    Of course you could sleep in a tent with your child. Just not other peoples children - unless you have been Garda vetted. I'm sure you wouldn't be impressed if a parent who supervised such a trip had a criminal record.


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    #23
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Is it just overnight trips that applies to?


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    #24
    silly
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭silly


    ash23 wrote: »
    Is it just overnight trips that applies to?
    That I don't know.
    I was told it in reference to an over night camping trip my daughters scout leader was trying to organise. I *think* she might have mentioned that the same goes for day outings. But I'm open to correction.


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    #25
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    ash23 wrote: »
    It's a jamboree for scouts from all over Ireland. The leaders sent a text to all parents asking for male volunteers as they had enough females and needed males for the boys groups for arranging campsites and sleeping arrangements. I assumed there would be adults camping in with them as I wouldn't have thought they'd leave 30 plus kids alone in tents at night but maybe they do have the kids sharing tents alone while the leaders sleep nearby. I'm not sure which I'm less comfortable with to be honest.

    The trip isn't until June so perhaps they are planning on vetting the volunteers given the time frame. I

    My daughter isn't going anyway as I'm not crazy about the idea of them going camping for 3 or more days. Plus it costs a fortune.
    That sounds like Jamoige. They won't have volunteers vetted in that timeframe. Even if they would they would have to apply to be adult members of scouting ireland. That all takes time as referees are required, interviews,
    administration etc.

    You should let her go on camps - the kids have a ball at them. And they're an integral part of scouting. And they are completely safe. The leaders know how to look after the kids - nobody gets lost in the hills :)
    ash23 wrote: »
    But what is the alternative?
    The kids all sleeping in tents alone and the supervisors in another?
    Genuinely curious in case she wants to go next year.

    If you've two tents of leaders and 8 tents of kids, would it not be very easy for them to sneak off at night (bearing in mind the groups going are aged 9 to 15).
    They sleep in separate tents. If it is Jamoige they're aged 6-12 btw not 9-15 - it's for Beavers and Cubs and is the only national one I know of this year. The leaders don't get a lot of sleep as they're pretty much on duty all night but that's the way it is - kids in one tent, leaders in another.
    ash23 wrote: »
    Is it just overnight trips that applies to?
    No non-vetted people can go on overnights. Unvetted volunteers can assist at meetings, hikes etc but must be with a vetted person at all times.


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    #26
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    silly wrote: »
    Of course you could sleep in a tent with your child. Just not other peoples children - unless you have been Garda vetted. I'm sure you wouldn't be impressed if a parent who supervised such a trip had a criminal record.
    You cannot sleep in a tent with the kids on a Scouting Ireland activity. If it was just your own child then maybe but vetted or not you cannot share sleeping space with the youth members.


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    #27
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    To be honest I didn't pay much heed once I decided she wasn't going.

    Maybe it is just the younger group but I do know adventurers went last year to the camping trip they organised and they'd be secondary school students. And I know parents went to help. From memory the older group went for a week and the younger ones joined them for 4 days.
    Perhaps the parents are just helping during the day. But there are only 3 group leaders so I'm not sure they wouldn't need more help managing all the kids.

    It's not so much the safety I was concerned about as the cost to be honest.

    I remember going to a Brownies camp but it was in a boarding school and we all stayed in dorms. It was great craic.


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