Hiring of unqualified teachers still continuing

dory

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I've three friends who are NQT Irish teachers , they didn't get any calls during the orals despite having innondated schools in many counties .

Are you serious? Well the orals haven't happened yet so you must be talking about last year. I know of at least two schools in Cork who can't get Irish teachers. I was offered a good few jobs but decided to go back and do the PDE. Schools had no trouble hiring an unqualified person.

dory

Kevin Irving wrote: »

In college at the moment, not doing teaching, but Engineering.

Most PhD students we have had lecturing/giving tutorials over the last few years have been excellent, and they were all decent.

As far as I know they didn't also have a teaching degree. As such, I believe that a copped on person, with a degree related to the subject area should be well capable of teaching it at leaving cert level. Speaking of technical subjects really, not sure about languages.

You can't really compare lecturing with teaching. You can argue you can do it without training, but a lot do it badly without some sort of training.

Roadtrippin

delta_bravo wrote: »

I would have thought with the massive supply of teachers this practice would have ended. However I have seen this happen lately where a person has been hired because they had a connection and now have about 15 hours including exam classes for quite common subjects. Person is only finished their BA and has no experience whatsoever.

In my opinion this is something the Teaching Council should be proactively getting involved in and if needs be forcing a schools hand in this matter.

In principle I agree with your outrage but more so over the fact that person had no teaching experience and got the job through a connection...

I find some people with BAs have quite a bit of teaching experience at times depending and can be just as good teachers as someone with an HDip. For me it's all about the teaching experience, to be honest. If you have a BA you fullfill minimum requirements to be a substitute teacher at least. How is it relevant whether someone has an HDip or not when it comes to quality of teaching as long as they have teaching experience? An HDip is no guarantee someone will be a good teacher... Experience with teaching however will at least guarantee that person can handle themselves in the classroom.

rainbowtrout

Roadtrippin wrote: »

In principle I agree with your outrage but more so over the fact that person had no teaching experience and got the job through a connection...

I find some people with BAs have quite a bit of teaching experience at times depending and can be just as good teachers as someone with an HDip. For me it's all about the teaching experience, to be honest. If you have a BA you fullfill minimum requirements to be a substitute teacher at least. How is it relevant whether someone has an HDip or not when it comes to quality of teaching as long as they have teaching experience? An HDip is no guarantee someone will be a good teacher... Experience with teaching however will at least guarantee that person can handle themselves in the classroom.

Sure if that's how people should be hired, why should anyone do the dip at all? Why bother getting a teaching qualification.

True, there are some people out there who are good teachers who do not have any teaching qualifications, but there are plenty who are chancing their arm, so why should they be hired ahead of people who've actually bothered to go and get the qualifications?

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Sure if that's how people should be hired, why should anyone do the dip at all? Why bother getting a teaching qualification.

True, there are some people out there who are good teachers who do not have any teaching qualifications, but there are plenty who are chancing their arm, so why should they be hired ahead of people who've actually bothered to go and get the qualifications?

Aye, second that, the days of having a good deal of experience minus a PGDE are coming to an end. Unless of course you 'know' someone...

evolving_doors

Kevin Irving wrote: »

In college at the moment, not doing teaching, but Engineering.

Most PhD students we have had lecturing/giving tutorials over the last few years have been excellent, and they were all decent.

As far as I know they didn't also have a teaching degree. As such, I believe that a copped on person, with a degree related to the subject area should be well capable of teaching it at leaving cert level. Speaking of technical subjects really, not sure about languages.

Hmm is this a case of Engineers trying to come in here takin our jobs again...

If you wanna be an engineer, be an engineer, if you wanna be a teacher do a HDip. Simple.

highly1111

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Roadtrippin wrote: »

In principle I agree with your outrage but more so over the fact that person had no teaching experience and got the job through a connection...

I find some people with BAs have quite a bit of teaching experience at times depending and can be just as good teachers as someone with an HDip. For me it's all about the teaching experience, to be honest. If you have a BA you fullfill minimum requirements to be a substitute teacher at least. How is it relevant whether someone has an HDip or not when it comes to quality of teaching as long as they have teaching experience? An HDip is no guarantee someone will be a good teacher... Experience with teaching however will at least guarantee that person can handle themselves in the classroom.

Sure if that's how people should be hired, why should anyone do the dip at all? Why bother getting a teaching qualification.

True, there are some people out there who are good teachers who do not have any teaching qualifications, but there are plenty who are chancing their arm, so why should they be hired ahead of people who've actually bothered to go and get the qualifications?

Not to mention who have spent the €6500 on getting their PDGE.

Also, teaching is far far far more then knowledge of subject matter. If that was the case of course anyone with a degree would be qualified. Sometimes I think that the actual teaching is the lowest constituent part of my job.

TheDriver

thats my point about the blasted "qualified in maths" lark that we keep hearing, its all well and good having a brilliant mathematician but if they can't keep the lads quiet and in line, then whats the point. They need a constructive well ordered classroom to learn and not a nut house.
Unfortunately, discipline and control is where the start is and is an integral part of teaching, subject matter is much easier to get across.

Powerhouse

Kevin Irving wrote: »

In college at the moment, not doing teaching, but Engineering.

Most PhD students we have had lecturing/giving tutorials over the last few years have been excellent, and they were all decent.

As far as I know they didn't also have a teaching degree. As such, I believe that a copped on person, with a degree related to the subject area should be well capable of teaching it at leaving cert level. Speaking of technical subjects really, not sure about languages.

Indeed it is not unreasonable to believe that "a copped on person with a degree related to the subject area should be well capable of teaching it at leaving cert level". But the idea that they could - without any training - do so just as well as someone with training is delusional. Sometimes it takes someone to actually go through teacher training to understand that there's a bit more to teaching than knowing your stuff and showing up.

Comparisons with PhD students giving tutorials or anyone giving a lecture are pointless. Teaching in a Post-Primary school is an entirely different skilll and experience to tutoring or lecturing at third-level despite any superficial similarities. In the latter environment you'll get Master's students giving first year tutorials - yet the same person would be chewed up and spat out in many a post-primary school setting.

At Post-Primary level, oddly enough, 'knowing' stuff' is actually less significant than how you put it across to a large group often with differing learning styles, intellectual capacities, and interest in even being there. I had many excellent lecturers in college - many of them eminent publicly known academics - but on the basis of what I saw of them in that setting they wouldn't last p*ssing time in a class-room. Unless they utterly changed their approach and learned a new set of coping skills of course.

Powerhouse

Roadtrippin wrote: »

If you have a BA you fullfill minimum requirements to be a substitute teacher at least.

Which part of the teaching council regulations states this?

Seanchai

Does all this "unqualified teacher" talk extend to the large number of people who, while having the HDip/PGDE/PDE, are not qualified to teach the subject which they are currently teaching (i.e. they have at least 54 degree credits/one-third of their degree in the subject they're teaching)?

If it does, the number of "unqualified teachers" in Irish schools is quite enormous.

Powerhouse

Seanchai wrote: »

Does all this "unqualified teacher" talk extend to the large number of people who, while having the HDip/PGDE/PDE, are not qualified to teach the subject which they are currently teaching (i.e. they have at least 54 degree credits/one-third of their degree in the subject they're teaching)?

If it does, the number of "unqualified teachers" in Irish schools is quite enormous.

We'll have to take your word on the sort of numbers involved but I think the short answer to your question is 'no' - it does not extend to cover people who are not registered to teach a subject.

Why not? Because the government will never provide the funds to supply enough teachers to provide a fully registered teacher for every subject that can potentially be offered. So unfortunately the objection you have has no real basis in practice as it is an unrealistic expectation.

Roadtrippin

anndub wrote: »

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, one of the best teachers I had in secondary school was unqualified. She just had a passion for and brilliant knowledge of the subject matter. I'd attribute the A I got in my leaving cert to her and not the holder of the PGDE whose maternity leave she was covering.

This is what I mean - I would be very much against excluding good teachers from the teaching pool because they don't have an HDip. If you have teaching experience and you have a passion for your subject, that should be enough, at least for subbing!

I am biased here since I have taught for years and don't have an HDip. I have a BA and a couple of years of teaching experience in language schools, university and primary school. Does that not make me suitable to teach in some ways? You decide. Judging on the feedback I get from the students, I'd say I'm doing ok...

rainbowtrout

Roadtrippin wrote: »

This is what I mean - I would be very much against excluding good teachers from the teaching pool because they don't have an HDip. If you have teaching experience and you have a passion for your subject, that should be enough, at least for subbing!

I am biased here since I have taught for years and don't have an HDip. I have a BA and a couple of years of teaching experience in language schools, university and primary school. Does that not make me suitable to teach in some ways? You decide. Judging on the feedback I get from the students, I'd say I'm doing ok...

If there are people out there who are that good why don't they just formalise their ability by getting a qualification- they should find it easy if they're that good. Plenty of others have got the qualification AND are good teachers. We expect qualifications in just about every other profession. Why not teaching? And why should subbing be any different? If your doctor is sick and there's a locum in their place you expect the locum to be equally qualified.

eager tortoise

I think it's odd that people consider subbing to be some kind of easier ride, where qualifications and experience don't matter as much; I subbed both before and after I qualified as a secondary teacher and it was incredibly challenging - the only difference being that post-qualification I had some better ideas of classroom management strategies, ideas for short one-class activities etc...as we all know, subbing can be hell-ish - walking into a class of 30 teenagers you don't know, many of whom will spend the best part of the following 40 minutes trying to test your boundaries... I think if I was a principal I'd be looking for someone with as many qualifications and as much experience as possible in order to make my own life easier!

seavill

Roadtrippin wrote: »

This is what I mean - I would be very much against excluding good teachers from the teaching pool because they don't have an HDip. If you have teaching experience and you have a passion for your subject, that should be enough, at least for subbing!

I am biased here since I have taught for years and don't have an HDip. I have a BA and a couple of years of teaching experience in language schools, university and primary school. Does that not make me suitable to teach in some ways? You decide. Judging on the feedback I get from the students, I'd say I'm doing ok...

I would have to agree with rainbowtrout here.

If it is your passion and you are so good at it, why not want to put yourself on the same footing as other qualified teachers and then be available for your perfect job.

If someone has a real natural flare for the job then brilliant get them in the school I love the people that are like that working in my school however they must be qualified.

Just because you are teaching does not make you a teacher. If you are not qualified you are not a teacher, you are an unqualified person teaching and nothing more, no matter how good you are at it

If I want to be an electrician I need to get qualified and do my apprenticeship, same with a carpenter, need to qualify to be a dentist, doctor, accountant, the list goes on, yes I could go along and bluff it and it could turn out to be my ideal job but in the end of the day I am not qualified to do it.
I would not let an electrician that has not been trained wire my house, or a doctor look at me that isn't qualified.
Why should teaching be any different, because it's such an easy job that anyone can do it?

lestat21

I wouldnt have said this last month but I really agree with what the Driver has said here... I just got a job for the rest of the year teaching maths, thank GOD!!!! but since then I've had two calls about subbing. This was after getting no work alll year!!!!!!

The second call was for an irish position. I studied Irish in the first year of my degree but have never taught it. This principal called me three times over two days. It took me so long getting back to them because I had left my phone in a friends house overnight. They even tried calling my home number but I dont live there anymore and it took awhile for the message to reach me with a phone. This principal was completely stuck for someone to teach irish and in that situation its much better to get someone with cupla focal.

Butthe school I'm now teaching in went out of their way to find two qualified sub teachers of english when I know they have a long term sub teacher with unrelated subjects who is really annoyed that they havent been able to get regular work. They could have given that sub teacher those hours to the end of the year, after all it could be argued that anyone can teach JC English, but they didnt.

Every situation is different.

Powerhouse

lestat21 wrote: »

after all it could be argued that anyone can teach JC English,

Only someone who has not had to do it would attempt to make such an argument.

lestat21

It could be argued... bt i obviously wasnt saying that.. Its just nice to see a school going out of there way to find subject qualified and registered teachers after everything u hear

adameen

It's a disgrace that a principals son doing a h dip or someone who has connections as mentioned on this thread is getting substitute work over qualified teachers.

If the principals son is doing adhoc subsitute work to cover miscellaneous days that work should firstly be given to a qualifed teacher in that subject in the school who is not on full hours (as is the case in a lot of schools now) - the work should go to them first provided they are free at those times - any classes they are free for should be given to them first (until they are at 22 hours for that week) and then only the remaining classes left should be available for another teacher .

If this fails, - Secondly a qualified sub in that subject should be sought.

If no luck there - the work ad hoc sub work shoudl go to qualified staff not on full hours in the staff. (very unfair on them not to be considered for that work before an unqualifed h dip student - they aren't on a full wage - unlike the principal)

Finally if all else fails and only then should an unqualified teacher be sought - preferably in that subject area.

Often for miscellaneous days like that teachers have work left anyhow so qualifed teachers distribute it and just have to exercise classroom management skills and ensure students are working.

Pay roll, - whether it is private schools, department of education - voluntary secondary schools, community schools or vec schools should question employing an unqualified sub[/B - Where is their accountability or why? are they turning a blind eye to it?? Surely the unqualified sub has to submit parchments - degree and h dip ones to be paid? if no h dip parchment then why is this not being questioned? why allow an unqualified sub to continue doing sub work at expense of qualified teachers???

Certaintly it shouldnt be happening regularly and should be very short term if at all! and every effort should be made to continue searching for a qualified sub after the unqualified sub has been taken on.

Too often principals are indifferent and suit themselves. I thought that now you had to prove you sought a qualifed sub. Who is to say cv's are not being binned to favour a relative or someone with connections? How are the department of education and vec's letting this happen??? In my opinion principals have way too much power in areas like this and it can be abused and is being abused.

What use are the teaching council if this is happening?

All hiring of teachers including ad hoc substitute days should be done from a centralised base to remove any bias or element of abuse. This base should also have part time teachers timetables to check if free to cover any miscellaneous substitute classes to bring up their hours when possible.

If the department of educatin payroll are not picking up this abuse or are indifferent to it there should be some forum where teachers can anonymously report schools and principals for this abuse - the evidence will be in the payroll.

Also it should be checked that certain part time qualified teachers are not being favoured or unfavoured in getting this substitute work - very unfair to always call on the same people and leave other part time qualified teachers who would be delighted at the chance of an extra few bob out. Principals can do this if for some reason they take a set on a particular part time teacher. extremely unfair.

TheDriver

perfect work maybe but try filling classes at 8:50 in the morning. Also if we are popping offsite for meetings etc, then its easier to get someone in. Although they should be qualified and in that subject, it doesn't always happen and remember a teacher ringing in sick doesn't give us a lot of time to sort this all out. Also some subs don't want the work or bothered with it.
Though agree with you about the principals son.

adameen

Perhaps easier for you if you are management - less work perhaps! but that is not a reason not to include or ask part time teachers if they are interested in the sub work. You are on a full salary if you are management.

Why not ask the qualified part time teachers if they are interested in ad hoc sub work? i would imagine the majority would be?

i thought if a teacher rang in sick this was covered under supervision substitution scheme? an outsider would not be covered in this case for day 1?

you could alert interested qualified part time teachers if wished to be considered for day 2 or 3 to be in early the next day (to be alert to the fact that you might get a call from the sick teacher that wouldnt be in again and to be available for the work if interested.
I am not fully sure but i think day 2 and 3 is uncertified sick leave and a sub is payable. often the teacher would have a cert for day 2 and 3 and onwards if necessary.

Also what about inservices? You know in advance when these are on. These hours should be given to existing qualified part time teachers in the school first - see the order in my previous post.

most part time teachers I know are very interested in any extra hours sub work they can get.

Meetings - if you mean you leaving the school to attend a meeting how often does that happen? would the deputy not fill in then and look at the part time teachers timetable to see when available for sub work etc etc - and fill the sub work according to the order of my previous post. or visa versa. or is it the case principals/deputy principals always taking the easy or convenient or perhaps biased way out?

If you are away who does the supervision/substitution rota for teachers gone to matches/trips etc etc - do you get outsiders to come in because this is easier - i doubt it because they cant be paid from the supervision/substitution scheme. You might say these are known in advance but what if a match is put forward, a trip is changed etc etc. also even if you are away or going away that morning if you have the part time teachers timetable in front of you not too difficult to note the free classes and give
them the hours. many part time teachers are in early anyhow and certaintly more would be in first class if thought were going to be considered for ad hoc sub work instead of being written off to unqualifed subs or h.dip students with connections

forget about "easier to get someone in" it is ok to say that when you are on full hours and full pay (assumption if you are management) - what about all the qualified part time teachers looking to earn a full time salary in any particular week - the onus should be on giving qualified part time teachers full 22 hours any week that extra substitute hours are available. that is the bottom line.


Also you assume they are not interested in extra sub work to bring them up to 22 hours work and pay in any particular week?
that is not my experience from talking to teachers in staff rooms. They would jump at the extra work but too often are not even considered or asked and would be in at the crack of dawn if thought was a chance would be asked to do the sub work. very disillusioning to see it go to others all of the time.


from your posts you seem to be extremely defensive about unqualifed staff being employed in schools

This practice causes a lot of resentment in schools. Part time teachers are often very vunlerable to the actions of the principal and very often keep their heads down for fear of losing hours the following year if they are seen to question managements (often corrupt or biased) practices