Considering our history of defiance and revolution, why are we now so apathetic?

RichardAnd

golfball37 wrote: »

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

Alot of Irish men that fought in the wars did so to earn money.

Dirk Gently

I think a few people have already pointed it out but we most certainly do not have a history of defiance and revolution. Ireland has always been a rather conservative place. People accepted poverty and emigration as a way of life and rarely done anything about it. As was pointed out, any "revolution" in this country has always been a tiny band of people with little or no popular support, save for the aftermath of 1916 when people only really reacted against the harsh treatment of the prisoners, whom they didn't support at the time of the rising. Even our eventual Irish state was possible the most conservative revolution ever had, i.e it was not at all revolutionary and infact was a very repressive regime which the population accepted. We accepted a virtual theocracy, that was our "great revolution".

It's not why now are we so apathetic, the answer is we always have been. Why? I don't know, serious lack of education through out our history maybe, even after our independent state was formed it was a conservative catholic education we got. Not exactly useful or productive or inspiring but it was very much in keeping the theme of control and sacrifice and be damned anyone who thinks differently.

In short, for the most part, we're a nation of followers, not independent thinkers.

KeithAFC

I think it is a bit of a myth about revolution on the island of Ireland. Never has a rebellion had any large support. And most of the fighting stems from one province anyway.

Tazz T

djpbarry wrote: »

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

And we're not?

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

djpbarry

Tazz T wrote: »

And we're not?

Relative to Greece, Ireland is a virtual utopia.

Tazz T wrote: »

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

I'll take that bet.

The Waltzing Consumer

Tazz T wrote: »

And we're not?

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

eh no, no we are not. We are really nothing like Greece.

What are you basing this five year prediction on? The economy is more stable now then it was 2008/09 so where is this fear mongering coming from?

munkifisht

later12 wrote: »

I don't know where the OP is getting this "history of defiance and revolution" from. As others have suggested, all insurrections - certainly all of those since the industrial revolution - have been small scale, splinter groups whose sentiments might sometimes have enjoyed public popularity, but did not enjoy such popularity in terms of men committing themselves and their arms to any such cause.

Thanks, exactly the point I was making in the opening post. Quoting myself

"I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts."

as well as the quote from Sept 1913 by WB. Some others have made the same point, so I can only guess that got lost somewhere in my overly verbose writing.

@tbh, re what I feel and what others feel, that is really not what I am talking about. What I am doing is looking into Europe and around the rest of the World where there seems to be a more active participation (rightly or wrongly) of the citizens of nations in trying to steer the course of those nations, while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day when the world is on the verge of a massive energy crisis, of as I say, allowing banks to screw their customers into the ground who are paying them twice, once for the mortgage they can no longer afford, and once for the bail out, taking blindly the words of our seemingly inept leaders that we must pay back the bond holders without question and follow all the rules laid down by the Troika without ever asking for any kind of renegotiation on what was a very very bad deal for us.

Now maybe you agree or maybe you disagree, but I am sure that there is a large proportion of this island (maybe 1:4 at an uber conservative estimate) who would at least subscribe to one of these ideas or some other fairly substantial gripe that I have not listed, but the thought of getting out there and holding a banner in front of Leinster house is not only not being done by anyone.

WE have protested somewhat, and there have been some small marches. but when you compare us to what has gone on around the world, in the UK, the US, Iceland, Greece, Spain, France (who would protest if the price of Petti Folous went up a cent), Germany etc while here there doesn't seem to be any urge to make any kind of protest. We seem meek and uninterested in what is happening to us. I know I'm wrong, but that's the way things appear.

Not that not protesting or being otherwise politically active is not really the worst crime in the world, people are busy, everyone who is still working is probably working harder these days for less money (I know that I am), and people have families and so on and so forth. Not everyone can afford to protest, not everyone wants to protest, but something we do all seem to want to do is have a good ol moan about it all (pretty much like I'm am).

You can imagine the same being true in 1915 with people grumbling about the Act of Union and the delay on the establishment of Home Rule but with few people ready to stand up and do anything about it (I am NOT advocating revolution here -REPEAT - NOT advocating revolution - it is simply a metaphor). But when those people do stand up, a good proportion are not only unsupportive, but hostile to the rebels.

This is what is enraging about the Irish attitude. Even when people do try and protest and will get out there and try and make some kind of a mark to say No, we are not happy, No, we do not forgive you for the incompetent mistakes you made and the corruption you still display today, No, we do not think we should bail out banks that sold billions in bonds to foreign parties in the boom years, No, we do not think that all the money generated from the Austerity measures introduced should go to bond holders, No, we do not want to give away our oil for free, that even when this happens those people are looked on with such disdain and mockery.

Anyway, gone way off topic. I think there was the really interesting point raised first by sarkozy and then by RichardAnd about the Us and Them idea. Its a really interesting concept and I really that has a contributing factor. I suppose you could say that would go all the way back to out clan heritage, and this might then have bee perpetuated when we were part of Britain during the plantations.

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day when the world is on the verge of a massive energy crisis

What?

We have oil now?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What?

We have oil now?

Yep, in Cork. Well, you say WE you mean Providence Resources. WE have no oil and will never make a brass penny out of it.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/oil-in-irish-waters-cork-well-raises-3514-barrels-a-day-3051267.html

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

Yep, in Cork. Well, you say WE you mean Providence Resources. WE have no oil and will never make a brass penny out of it.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/oil-in-irish-waters-cork-well-raises-3514-barrels-a-day-3051267.html

So in other words, what you said is not true. The country is not giving away thousands of barrels of oil a day for free. That was a lie no?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So in other words, what you said is not true. The country is not giving away thousands of barrels of oil a day for free. That was a lie no?

No. That was a truth yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU&feature=player_embedded

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

No. That was a truth yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU&feature=player_embedded

A youtube video does not make it true.

You made a statement saying we give thousands of barrells of oil away every day for free. Now from the Independent article, it seems to say that a company that have a licence struck oil. Can you confirm if that is accurate? Can you also tell me how many days we have been giving away this oil?

Do you think all the fish in the Irish sea belong to the Government, do you get annoyed at fishermen who take fish? Are they stealing from the state?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

A youtube video does not make it true.

You made a statement saying we give thousands of barrells of oil away every day for free. Now from the Independent article, it seems to say that a company that have a licence struck oil. Can you confirm if that is accurate? Can you also tell me how many days we have been giving away this oil?

Do you think all the fish in the Irish sea belong to the Government, do you get annoyed at fishermen who take fish? Are they stealing from the state?

No, the truth makes it true. The fact it's a fact makes it true. Surely you are not that ignorant, but lets for the sake of argument say you are.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/right-man-for-change-in-energy-tax-policy-1048797.html

But yes, you are right, we don't own all the fish in the sea, that belongs to the Spanish fishermen, but why stop there. What about our land, surely the people don't have a right to claim soil that came from the Iberian peninsula originally, Spain owns the land too, so you are spot on. The oil surely doesn't belong to the people. Why should we potato munching bog hoppers be entitled to a cent from the potential billions under our feet. It's not like we need it or anything. I mean, no other country has had any benefit from their luck of their homelands geography. You, you've convinced me, we don't deserve the oil, we should let whatever polluting bstrds who want to drill our coast lines like Swiss cheese and lay ruin to fossil coral beds do whatever the hell they like for free.

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

No, the truth makes it true. The fact it's a fact makes it true. Surely you are not that ignorant, but lets for the sake of argument say you are.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/right-man-for-change-in-energy-tax-policy-1048797.html

But yes, you are right, we don't own all the fish in the sea, that belongs to the Spanish fishermen, but why stop there. What about our land, surely the people don't have a right to claim soil that came from the Iberian peninsula originally, Spain owns the land too, so you are spot on. The oil surely doesn't belong to the people. Why should we potato munching bog hoppers be entitled to a cent from the potential billions under our feet. It's not like we need it or anything. I mean, no other country has had any benefit from their luck of their homelands geography. You, you've convinced me, we don't deserve the oil, we should let whatever polluting bstrds who want to drill our coast lines like Swiss cheese and lay ruin to fossil coral beds do whatever the hell they like for free.

Sorry, this is confusing. You made the claim:

"while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day "

Now please quote in the Independent article where it says the Government is giving away oil? This forum has standards, if you are going to make a claim, back it up. All I can read from that article is that a company which has a legal agreement with the Government, found amounts of oil, it does not mention them stealing oil, it does not mention them selling oil, it does not mention the government giving away this oil for free, so please, for the love of god, show me where this is?

As for the rant, seriously, standards, that does not match them so would not bother to think of any reply to that.

munkifisht

I do enjoy a good rant

Anyway, the article there is a buisness article and is only reporting that oil has been found. As any 8 year old knows, FF gave away for free any exploration rights to oil and gas in this country in the 80s. One of the last act they did in government was to give away billions of euros worth of exploration licences. One when to this company. If the company today decide they want to develop this field (they will, oil prices are heading in one direction and the price/l is expected to top €2 before the end of this year) they are only required to pay a piffy 20% on any net profit they make, that is net profit mind, so there is almost 0 risk. I suppose an analogy could be made here with the bondholders. The logic behind this move was that our oil and gas fields were so pathetic that no one would develop them without this kind of incentive. The truth as we now know is quite different.

Amtmann

What is this 'we' about? Do you think we're like a nest of ants, all of the same mindset? The use of 'we' as a catch-all term is laughably simplistic.

john reilly

djpbarry wrote: »

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

and yet in five years time they will probably be better off than us. but enda isnt going to let his pals in the e.c.b down. no he would rather lie to the irish people to get elected and then let them down. when are the people who are elected by the irish people going to start standing up for the irish people

munkifisht

Amtmann wrote: »

What is this 'we' about? Do you think we're like a nest of ants, all of the same mindset? The use of 'we' as a catch-all term is laughably simplistic.

We in terms of a nation or as a society. It's a generilisation but I thought it would take too long to list everyone by name

Amtmann

munkifisht wrote: »

We in terms of a nation or as a society. It's a generilisation but I thought it would take too long to list everyone by name

As a generalisation it fails.

munkifisht

Amtmann wrote: »

As a generalisation it fails.

Can I take it then that you disagree and believe that there is a significant proportion that are politically active? If so could you expand that point?

Amtmann

munkifisht wrote: »

Can I take it then that you disagree and believe that there is a significant proportion that are politically active? If so could you expand that point?

No - I just don't like how from the outset you contend that "we" have a history of defiance and revolution. I certainly don't; do you? Do you know anyone, anyone at all, who engaged in revolution or acts of significant political defiance (whatever that is)? And if you do, how representative are they of the populace?

Also, you're referring to a particular historical narrative that is not very relevant to 2012. And even when the revolution and defiance that you refer to were current, they were conducted by a small minority of people.

In general, I don't like national and ethnic generalisations. They are based by and large on imagined histories and imagined communities. In the context you're referring to, there is no "we" in any nuanced, significant way. The recession doesn't even affect everyone, and even if it did, there would be no group consensus about what the state should do. I find your use of "we" unrealistic.

djpbarry

john reilly wrote: »

and yet in five years time they will probably be better off than us.

Because?

K-9

munkifisht wrote: »

I do enjoy a good rant

Anyway, the article there is a buisness article and is only reporting that oil has been found. As any 8 year old knows, FF gave away for free any exploration rights to oil and gas in this country in the 80s. One of the last act they did in government was to give away billions of euros worth of exploration licences. One when to this company.

Considering this is the first significant find and it's nearly a quarter of a century later, hardly giving it away.

If the company today decide they want to develop this field (they will, oil prices are heading in one direction and the price/l is expected to top €2 before the end of this year) they are only required to pay a piffy 20% on any net profit they make, that is net profit mind, so there is almost 0 risk. I suppose an analogy could be made here with the bondholders. The logic behind this move was that our oil and gas fields were so pathetic that no one would develop them without this kind of incentive. The truth as we now know is quite different.

Again the first significant oil find here ever so I'm afraid logic supports the Governments stance as this is the first significant find and it hasn't even been fully explored yet.

Its a 25% tax rate which can be increased to 40% if it exceeds expectations. As for the price, you realise the the main reason this find is economical to drill is exactly because of high oil prices?

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

There are a lot of problems in this thread. OP, you latched onto an interesting topic for discussion, but...

munkifisht wrote: »

...but today, as the rest of Europe rises up to defy unjust austerity measures we in Ireland are happy to let that suppurating little worm Edna to go cap in hand to the EU to beg for a token respite in the from of a longer period of time to repay the so-called promissory notes and we as a people are quite happy to let this type of thing go on. Hearing his pathetic whinge to our Kaiser overlords on the radio today reminded me of Oliver Twists "Please sir, can I have some more" line...

munkifisht wrote: »

We voted for Fianna Mash-up (seriously, what's the flipping difference between FF or FG except for Cowen) or Labor a little over a year ago, and we will wait 4 more years until we can make another collective mistake.

This kind of posting is inflammatory, and the OP was an extended rant - a generally well-crafted rant, but a rant.

Generally rants in this forum are shut down, and a suggestion is made to the OP that perhaps starting a blog would be a better use of their time and energy. But people seemed interested in the debate, and so it continued.

But then we get posts like this:

munkifisht wrote: »

No, the truth makes it true. The fact it's a fact makes it true. Surely you are not that ignorant, but lets for the sake of argument say you are.

munkifisht wrote: »

But yes, you are right, we don't own all the fish in the sea, that belongs to the Spanish fishermen, but why stop there. What about our land, surely the people don't have a right to claim soil that came from the Iberian peninsula originally, Spain owns the land too, so you are spot on. The oil surely doesn't belong to the people. Why should we potato munching bog hoppers be entitled to a cent from the potential billions under our feet. It's not like we need it or anything. I mean, no other country has had any benefit from their luck of their homelands geography. You, you've convinced me, we don't deserve the oil, we should let whatever polluting bstrds who want to drill our coast lines like Swiss cheese and lay ruin to fossil coral beds do whatever the hell they like for free.

munkifisht wrote: »

We in terms of a nation or as a society. It's a generilisation but I thought it would take too long to list everyone by name

munkifisht wrote: »

As any 8 year old knows, FF gave away for free any exploration rights to oil and gas in this country in the 80s.

Sarcasm and bullying. Clearly the thread should have been shut down from the beginning, because there was nothing in the tone of the OP to suggest that this would be a civil debate.

munkifisht wrote: »

I do enjoy a good rant

Generally we do not, and insulting, sarcastic rants are particularly unwelcome.

I'm sorry to the other posters here who wanted to have a real conversation about this, but thread closed.