Ryan Hall Restaurant scrap

manga_10

"When keeping it real goes wrong? More like "when picking a fight with a Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) badass who will choke you the hell out if you keep bugging him and his friends at dinner."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GJX9QnrZtfc

arybvtcw0eolkf

I've missed ten minutes of Jeremy Kyle for that :mad:

SBG Ireland

empirical evidence of a martial art (not some choreographed BS that we normally see posted here) being used in probably the most common self defense situation that most people taking up martial arts want to be able to handle - an aggressive drunk. not 10 guys with knives, guns and machetes...just a drunk guy being a dick.
yeah there coulda been this or that couldve happened....but there wasnt and look how a guy who's about 5'8" and i think about 10stone easily deals with it without having to hurt the guy but is able to protect himself easily.
....and you wont meet a nicer guy than Ryan!

Dyr

I once held a guy down with knee on stomach for a few minutes , he was'nt much bigger than me though. Still, it presumably that counts as empirical evidence that the choreographed BS i was doing at the time was also supremely street effective

Two things you can take from that video,
When he took the nutter down I would have happily put up a score that he would
a) make the guy promise to be good and then let him back up
b) it would then kick off again

More interestingly, in a room full of martial artists no one had the sense to realise that their presence was antagonising a dickhead so the best course of action was to get out of his presence rather than face him off. Zero points there.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

More interestingly, in a room full of martial artists no one had the sense to realise that their presence was antagonising a dickhead so the best course of action was to get out of his presence rather than face him off. Zero points there.

Are you for real?.

Dyr

Absolutely?. Stand there in front of the dickhead while your mates laugh at him or walk out of the room, which do you think is more likely to result in a fight?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

Absolutely?. Stand there in front of the dickhead while your mates laugh at him or walk out of the room, which do you think is more likely to result in a fight?

I'll tell you now, not in a million years would I have walked out of that situation.

SBG Ireland

Bambi wrote: »

Still, it presumably that counts as empirical evidence that the choreographed BS i was doing at the time

i have no idea who you or what you are on about? paranoid much?

as for the whole group having to leave the restaurant over a bully...are you seriously suggesting doing that every time? wow.

nino1

Bambi wrote: »

Absolutely?. Stand there in front of the dickhead while your mates laugh at him or walk out of the room, which do you think is more likely to result in a fight?

i'm not sure if you are being serious but on the off chance that you are, why should a full table of people, in the middle of a meal, minding their own business, leave the restaurant because of one drunk idiot?

kdowling

Bambi wrote: »

Absolutely?. Stand there in front of the dickhead while your mates laugh at him or walk out of the room, which do you think is more likely to result in a fight?

come join us here in the real world buddy.

if you would walk out of the room you are either an absolute saint or an absolute coward.

Dyr

Who said the whole group had to leave? The dick head has a problem with one person in particular so presuming your aim is not to get into a fight just walk off, walk out the back exit, walk into the kitchen or office. Let the guys buddy or the law deal with him and you might even get to sit down again and enjoy your meal once he's gone.

You f**in meal is pretty much ruined when you have to talk to the cops about why you just choked a guy out out but hey if that's your perogative go for it.

i have no idea who you or what you are on about? paranoid much?

Nothing to do with paranoia, just pointing out that a total hobbyist who was training in what you described as choreographed BS achieved the same the result as a world champion grappler, sitting on a drunk is not exactly something to stick on the CV really.

Doug Cartel

No way I would have left either, and I've no idea how you think walking away and then coming straight back would work.

SBG Ireland

Bambi wrote: »

Nothing to do with paranoia, just pointing out that a total hobbyist who was training in what you described as choreographed BS

not paranoid....but yet you assumed i was talking about the specific art you train in? i have no clue what you train in, or more importantly how you train.

Chris89

Was hoping to see some rdlr inversion to be honest.

slammer187

Chris89 wrote: »

Was hoping to see some rdlr inversion to be honest.

Why?

SorGan

bambi is dead right.
drop the egos and its easy to see.
and im no coward, just grew up a while back.

arybvtcw0eolkf

SorGan wrote: »

bambi is dead right.
drop the egos and its easy to see.
and im no coward, just grew up a while back.

If there was security on the premises there might be an argument for leaving the table and asking security to remove the person - I'm called to do this a dozen times a weekend.

In the case posted there are no security/bouncers.

Put in the position of a bouncer sometimes its advisable to walk away, ie you pull someone out of the premises so they're pissed at you and want to have a go.. In this case the guys on the door will often just say 'go back inside' and then play 'good cop, bad cop.

Example 'Listen buddy your man is a bit of an asshole but he f*cked you out for a reason, there's nothing I can do for you.. Come back another time and you'll be back in' - nine times out of ten this works and there is no trouble.

IN this case its cool to walk away and its really no skin off my nose.

In the clip posted, now in all honesty tell me how you could walk away - someone suggested out the back exit or into a kitchen?.. Seriously that kind of stuff belongs up there with the fairies.

DavidPhelan

slammer187 wrote: »

Chris89 wrote: »

Was hoping to see some rdlr inversion to be honest.

Why?

Chris is just very serious about his jiu-jitsu and is all about pulling out the flashy moves in public fights. I, however, disagree and believe he should have pulled 50/50 guard, thus using this to promote his team.

Bambi is dead right, I mean that guy would have had no problem going off on his merry way if Ryan went into the kitchen and just helped with the dishes.

I have to say though, poor show that the waiter didn't give him the points, think he was cheated out of about 9 points in the first match.

As I said, this is all very serious stuff! ;-)

I've got an idea, why don't we set up a sport where all martial arts can fight each other with minimal rules and see which ones work the best in as close to a real fight as possible...... Who's with me?

nino1

Bambi wrote: »

More interestingly, in a room full of martial artists no one had the sense to realise that their presence was antagonising a dickhead so the best course of action was to get out of his presence rather than face him off. Zero points there.

if you walk into another room or outside he would more than likely just follow him and continue harassing him. how does that solve anything?

Peetrik

DavidPhelan wrote: »

I've got an idea, why don't we set up a sport where all martial arts can fight each other with minimal rules and see which ones work the best in as close to a real fight as possible...... Who's with me?

It would never work, even with proof some people would still just live in denial... theoretically of course.

DavidPhelan

Peetrik wrote: »

DavidPhelan wrote: »

I've got an idea, why don't we set up a sport where all martial arts can fight each other with minimal rules and see which ones work the best in as close to a real fight as possible...... Who's with me?

It would never work, even with proof some people would still just live in denial... theoretically of course.

Our friend, the Disney character needs to be introduced to this new sport that clearly proves traditional martial arts are more effective.......

An Ri rua

Strange, I posted about being attacked and intimidated for over 20 minutes along with a respectable couple and 2 terrified chipper staff (women) by a drunk mid-20s guy who WOULD NOT STOP, and barraged and harrassed all in the chippers, eventually assaulting me (can of beer thrown over a €500 suit). When I dealt with him harshly and efficiently, I was called names and insulted and not believed by a number of the same people here who now say they wouldn't walk away, they would deal with the guy etc etc.

It seems to me that there is a closed shop in this forum and that posters (and Mods) who know each others backgrounds and presume to be superior (knowledge-wise or martially) to other Boardsies feel its ok to apply different rules of conduct towards different members.

For what its worth, in this original OP, I would, if i thought I was the object of the drunk's aggression, lure him out at worst or remove myself temporarily at best. If I felt there was an imminent threat to others, I would react forcibly. Strangely, that's what I recounted before and was ridiculed for. Strangely here, when @Bambi opts for a passive defence as an initial move, HE is mocked by the same people who mocked me for being a 'vigilante'.

I would have thought right and wrong (collective good, not personal ego lads, life isn't a Bruce Lee film) would be self-apparent. Less harm is best. Trained guys like yourselves should be well able to neutralise a threat without all of this heady ego and emotion that's being aired. Normal stealth punters like myself who can defend ourselves extremely ably would fare better in front of a judge than trained and forewarned gossuns like yourselves.....

There is a continuous bias towards bashing of self-defence advocates by MMA adherents who fail to recognise that stealth and deception are the greatest weapons in real life and, if needed, street fights.

I don't expect a fair hearing on this forum. I expect Doug to wonder wide-eyed why I have posted at 3+AM.... Doug >>> "All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved"

BTW Now if Roustabout Ryan had just carried a fistful ( ) of zippo, he could have facilitated the guy.......

Doug Cartel

An Ri rua wrote: »

Strange, I posted about being attacked and intimidated for over 20 minutes along with a respectable couple and 2 terrified chipper staff (women) by a drunk mid-20s guy who WOULD NOT STOP, and barraged and harrassed all in the chippers, eventually assaulting me (can of beer thrown over a €500 suit). When I dealt with him harshly and efficiently, I was called names and insulted and not believed by a number of the same people here who now say they wouldn't walk away, they would deal with the guy etc etc.

It seems to me that there is a closed shop in this forum and that posters (and Mods) who know each others backgrounds and presume to be superior (knowledge-wise or martially) to other Boardsies feel its ok to apply different rules of conduct towards different members.

For what its worth, in this original OP, I would, if i thought I was the object of the drunk's aggression, lure him out at worst or remove myself temporarily at best. If I felt there was an imminent threat to others, I would react forcibly. Strangely, that's what I recounted before and was ridiculed for. Strangely here, when @Bambi opts for a passive defence as an initial move, HE is mocked by the same people who mocked me for being a 'vigilante'.

I would have thought right and wrong (collective good, not personal ego lads, life isn't a Bruce Lee film) would be self-apparent. Less harm is best. Trained guys like yourselves should be well able to neutralise a threat without all of this heady ego and emotion that's being aired. Normal stealth punters like myself who can defend ourselves extremely ably would fare better in front of a judge than trained and forewarned gossuns like yourselves.....

There is a continuous bias towards bashing of self-defence advocates by MMA adherents who fail to recognise that stealth and deception are the greatest weapons in real life and, if needed, street fights.

I don't expect a fair hearing on this forum. I expect Doug to wonder wide-eyed why I have posted at 3+AM.... Doug >>> "All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved"

BTW Now if Roustabout Ryan had just carried a fistful ( ) of zippo, he could have facilitated the guy.......

Jesus wept. You were asked to take a week off to get a feel for the place so that you could try and make some more constructive posts when you came back. It doesn't look like you have done that.

First post back and you're complaining about your banning, dragging up this vigilantism thing that got you banned in the first place, and you're calling me out by name. Where do you plan on going with this? (That's a rhetorical question by the way.)

Doug Cartel

Dane Mysterious Shiner wrote: »

In the clip posted, now in all honesty tell me how you could walk away - someone suggested out the back exit or into a kitchen?.. Seriously that kind of stuff belongs up there with the fairies.

While they're all sat at a table together they are relatively safe, one guy gets up and leaves, he's on his own and could get in trouble.

Personally I thought it looked like the drunk guy was more a danger to himself than anyone else and - with hindsight - Hall shouldn't have double legged him like that, but it's not easy to keep cool while someone's right in your face like that and at least he didn't clock the drunk guy, which would be a lot of people's fight or flight response.

The Bored One

Hmmm. Couple of points on this. I'm normally all in favour of walking away when someone starts getting worked up but im not sure how suitable that is in this situation. First off the man changes targets more than once, and they are part of a group. Any individual leaving does not guaranty safety for the group because he may simply switch targets again.
So, any exit strategy needs to involve the whole group. The problems there are these. One - he is blocking the front entrance itself, which is the one any large group could exit most easily with.
Two - mobilizing the whole group to leave is going to involve delays and disagreements especially if they are trying to use an alternative exit. It would take longer than it took for the scene to escalate anyway.
Three - a group exit is very obvious looking and will likely zone in on it anyway.

Now to the takedown. This looked like it was a little early since he was still mainly getting in Ryans face rather than attacking. On the other hand the guy has already shoved another patron a few times and is clearly heading in that direction with Ryan so im not gonna judge anyone for trying to neutralize a threat.
My problem is this. Take down occurs, Ryan assumes control position, the threat clearly has no idea how to respond. Might not be method id use but if it works.
The problem is they let him back up without maintaining control of him. They just disengage and let an already hostile person work themselves up again after the conflict has escalated. That I don't get.
I'd have kept him in a control position or locked up until the authorities arrived, as its mentioned they've been called.

Barry.Oglesby

The only reason to go into the kitchen is to change costume. You can't have you'd friends and family knowing you're Batman.

An Ri rua

My problem is the length of the episode. Its crazy. Once Ryan had committed to taking him down, the cops should have been called and the guy should have been kept restrained.

What happened was ineffective, dangerous and symptomatic of a sports-trained mind. The overarching strategy should have been one of a bouncer at best or a streetfighter at worst; depending on which route the guy's volatility necessitated. By prolonging the conflict, Ryan allowed other egos to stoke both yer man's fires and also, subsconsciously his own. The longer these things go on, the more chance there is that your adrenaline takes over. To me, Ryan looked ill at ease at the table. Way too ill at ease for someone well trained. That can be because of the group dynamic. If he was with a group of 'normals', perhaps his actions would have been more warriorlike; and by that I of course mean restrained until necessary and then efficient and quick. But he wasn't. I am sure most bouncers here would not prolong the embarrassment of a protagonist? Its not good for any longterm results; for you, for him or for the establishment.

What I'm saying is that I saw very poor 'software' at work in this clip. The aim should always be peace and safety. Surely some of the ex-soldiers here understand the wholesome morality of peace enforcement? Again, I am no vigilante. Ryan moved a little too quickly and then wallowed in the moment VERY ineffectively. That diminishes the latent threat power of a martial art for me. It also allowed and fed off of the gloating lesser people attending. Its always a pleasure to defend, its never a pleasure to have to hurt surely? His mindset seemed lacking and that of his crew seemed infantile. They were as much a problem as he was once Ryan took him to ground. Shameful taunting; should have shut their mouths and deflate the situation. Instead, they deflated any authority they had over the guy.

Peetrik

The Bored One wrote: »

Now to the takedown. This looked like it was a little early since he was still mainly getting in Ryans face rather than attacking.

The guy is very aggressive, he threatens to bite Ryans nose off and then leans in still giving every indication of spoiling for a fight, at this point I would have done everything in my power to hurt the guy as badly as possible to avoid getting my nose bitten off.

I like my nose.

TKD SC

I find in these situations, it's always best to ask yourself one question...



What would John Wayne have done?

Doug Cartel

An Ri rua wrote: »

To me, Ryan looked ill at ease at the table. Way too ill at ease for someone well trained.

Of course he looks ill at ease. He's trying to have some dinner with his friends, and some random guy is screaming in his face. That would make anyone ill at ease.

The Bored One

Peetrik wrote: »

The guy is very aggressive, he threatens to bite Ryans nose off and then leans in still giving every indication of spoiling for a fight, at this point I would have done everything in my power to hurt the guy as badly as possible to avoid getting my nose bitten off.

I like my nose.

That's why I followed up afterwards saying the guy was clearly heading in that direction and I wouldn't hold it against anyone for trying to stop the threat. And Im sure you have a very nice nose.

Peetrik

The Bored One wrote: »

Im sure you have a very nice nose.

After years of sparring, "It has character" would be the nicest thing anyone would say about my nose haha

da-bres

Woulda, shoulda, coulda, the great thing about BJJ is that anyone blue belt above IMO could replicate this in a real situation.. WAR BJJ

Madman08

da-bres wrote: »

Woulda, shoulda, coulda, the great thing about BJJ is that anyone blue belt above IMO could replicate this in a real situation.. WAR BJJ

That's bad form to say BJJ blue belts and above get drunk and rowdy !! ;-)

Ryan Hall reacted perfectly. Gave the drunk dude a chance and everything.

EnjoyChoke

Given the same circumstances, I would have used my hard earned Jiu-Jitsu skills to establish top mount and then taken a giant dump on the drunks head.

An Ri rua

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Of course he looks ill at ease. He's trying to have some dinner with his friends, and some random guy is screaming in his face. That would make anyone ill at ease.

"Way too ill at ease for someone so-called well-trained". I would hope some of you have better self-knowledge and self-control. No, you should NOT look ill at ease if you are well trained and particularly if you plan to go on the offence. Talk about an easy read. Spot the martial obsessionist etc. Lads, anyone with strong confidence in their training should not LOOK or BE ill at ease with a drunk. A drunk man is not a threat. Unless you have no control over your emotions, skills or are unprepared by being unfit. ps 10 mins is way too long for any incident. 1 minute and wrap it up. Either brute force or pin him (as he did) and call the cops. This video is a recipe for getting a martial artist hurt or stabbed. Even a pissed off drunk can get lucky after being humiliated. No bouncer worth his salt would do this.

The guy was feeding off the emotion of being attacked while with his MA peers. Not a good place to be shown up or threatened and so, I believe, he over-reacted, under-performed and prolonged a simple scenario.

You're at it again, presuming for some reason that you or any of you might know more about martial scenarios than me. That's a sign of poor judgement that can get one into real trouble in such a scenario.

slammer187

An Ri rua wrote: »

"Way too ill at ease for someone so-called well-trained". I would hope some of you have better self-knowledge and self-control. No, you should NOT look ill at ease if you are well trained and particularly if you plan to go on the offence. Talk about an easy read. Spot the martial mental-case. Lads, anyone with strong confidence in their training should not LOOK or BE ill at ease with a drunk. A drunk man is not a threat. Unless you have no control over your emotions, skills or are unprepared by being unfit. ps 10 mins is way too long for any incident. 1 minute and wrap it up. Either brute force or pin him (as he did) and call the cops. This video is a recipe for getting a martial artist hurt or stabbed. Even a pissed off drunk can get lucky after being humiliated. No bouncer worth his salt would do this.

You're at it again, presuming for some reason that you or any of you might know more about martial scenarios than me. That's a sign of poor judgement that can get one into real trouble in such a scenario.

I think you're reading into this too deep...looking for stuff that's not there and trying to put words in other peoples mouths here

Where have you obtained such a in-depth knowledge of martial arts usage and human psychology?

An Ri rua

slammer187 wrote: »

I think you're reading into this too deep...looking for stuff that's not there and trying to put words in other peoples mouths here

Where have you obtained such a in-depth knowledge of martial arts usage and human psychology?

No, not really. A skilled MA should not be ill at ease. I'm simply saying that he may have felt the peer pressure. You don't think?

If every bouncer felt ill at ease we'd have a messed up country. Thankfully, they are self-controlled not reactive; in the main.

My background is not for this forum (I choose not to) but its practical experience not training. i have three degrees containing strong psychology components but much more reading and application in the real world.

Maybe I am looking into it too deep. Apologies, not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. And certainly not trying to put words in anyone's mouth?? I simply think that 10 mins and many aspects of that situation were handled poorly. Bad luck that his peers were slagging the guy. That can make it dangerous and is unworthy of calm MAs.

Peetrik

Ri rua its quite clear that you have a healthy respect for psychologists and their ability to help people. I understand that people who are studying more traditional types of counselling psychology are expected to attend one on one psychology sessions as part of their training.
While I have no doubt of the effectiveness of NLP from an advertising/confidence point of view, perhaps you could consider attending some sessions of a more traditional councillor, even just in the interest of learning more about the trade so to speak.

An Ri rua

Peetrik wrote: »

Ri rua its quite clear that you have a healthy respect for psychologists and their ability to help people. I understand that people who are studying more traditional types of counselling psychology are expected to attend one on one psychology sessions as part of their training.
While I have no doubt of the effectiveness of NLP from an advertising/confidence point of view, perhaps you could consider attending some sessions of a more traditional councillor, even just in the interest of learning more about the trade so to speak.

Pee Trick, unsure as to what to make of your rambling response. I gather you know little of fight psychology, never mind streetfighting. If you did, your nose might be in better shape. Mine's perfect.

If you're interested in some one one counselling, I'd be happy to give you some life lessons but I don't belong to any particular 'school' so you might be at sea, as it were.

Your post seems very OT, this is too, purely as a response to your strange post. I have the utmost respect for other Boardsies and charters. if I have breached it, I apologise to fellow Boardsies. I expect the same courtesy and extract it in one on one sessions Pee Trick.

Peetrik

Ok, nevermind then, I'm out. Best of luck to you

Doug Cartel

An Ri Rua, there's not much point complaining about people not giving you enough respect if you're going to engage in such immature name calling. I mean, "Pee Trick"!? How old are you - 8?

roro1neil0

An Ri rua wrote: »

Pee Trick, unsure as to what to make of your rambling response. I gather you know little of fight psychology, never mind streetfighting. If you did, your nose might be in better shape. Mine's perfect.

If you're interested in some one one counselling, I'd be happy to give you some life lessons but I don't belong to any particular 'school' so you might be at sea, as it were.

What is your qualification in counselling?
What is your knowledge of fight psychology.

In other words, I'm calling you out on your bluff that you know anything about either.

Peetrik

Thanks Doug, in fairness to him my post had to have come across as condescending, I couldn't think of another way to phrase my suggestion without it sounding like a personal criticism. The guy is obviously going through some personal stuff so enough said

arybvtcw0eolkf

An Ri rua has been permanently banned from the forum.

Stillweak

Dane Mysterious Shiner wrote: »

An Ri rua has been permanently banned from the forum.

Such a shame. He was my favourite poster on here.
Either a complete mentaler or had a good sense of humour.
I have a feeling it's not the last we'll hear from this hero.

Doug Cartel

Stillweak wrote: »

Such a shame. He was my favourite poster on here.
Either a complete mentaler or had a good sense of humour.
I have a feeling it's not the last we'll hear from this hero.

Just drop it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Stillweak wrote: »

Such a shame. He was my favourite poster on here.
Either a complete mentaler or had a good sense of humour.
I have a feeling it's not the last we'll hear from this hero.

Lets just leave it now please.

It gives us no great pleasure to see someone banned from here, and more goes on behind the scenes than people know.

Doug Cartel

There's an interview with Hall about the incident here http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2012/03/18/ryan-hall-uses-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-self-defense/

dougieruggie

Dane Mysterious Shiner wrote: »

An Ri rua has been permanently banned from the forum.

One of the most interesting posters on this forum, he will be sorely missed.

Doug Cartel

I don't really want to lock the thread, but if the only activity in it now is people sticking the boot into somebody who can't respond, then I might have to.