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Apartment owner: Am I free to change my front door?
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Get a new door, paint it the same as the old one, and put a mirror behind a pane f glass so that it looks like the other doors?
If you took this approach in our development you would get the following:
1. Three registered requests with time limits to restore the original door.
2. A solicitors letter requesting the same. (This does it for most)
3. Notification of our plan to return the door to its orignal state.
At this stage it depends on the tenent, so attempt to block the management company for taking corrective action at which stage we are back to a solicitor and inform the owner of our intent to start legal preceeding based on violation of the lease agreement.
During this stage "charges" not fines are applicable per unit leases and all costs are recovered from the owners. It has only ever got past 2 once as per my prior reply.
That said it is a very quite, extremly well maintained and visually attractive complex now but that was not always the case and most people don't see the work involved.0 -
Actually there is plenty that they can do. Just because, in your case, they didn't, doesn't mean that they can't.
They can actually remove the door, replace it with one that fits the development, and then bill you for the whole thing. This charge can stay on your account until you attempt to sell, and can also stop you from being able to vote at company AGMs.
You should check your contracts, to be sure. Sounds like they just didn't bother chasing you.
It takes nothing to ask, and most responsbile management company directors will have no problem with you changing doors, as long as they are of a similar style.
I was on a couple of management committees myself.
As I said, a lot of huff and puff is all the person will get.
Just threats of this that and the other.
Just like your own made up bull there about removing and replacing the door. Im pretty sure you have to open a door and cross the threshold to change the door, unless its different to every door ive ever seen. So you would be breaking the law there yourself. Oh, i forgot, its just another empty threat.
You have to laugh really.0 -
Remind me to never, ever buy an apartment in Peter's development.0
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CricketDude wrote: »I was on a couple of management committees myself.
As I said, a lot of huff and puff is all the person will get.
Just threats of this that and the other.
Just like your own made up bull there about removing and replacing the door. Im pretty sure you have to open a door and cross the threshold to change the door, unless its different to every door ive ever seen. So you would be breaking the law there yourself. Oh, i forgot, its just another empty threat.
Shows how little you actually know there. Management committees?? A management company is a company. There is no committee. It is a company, with a board of directors. The shareholders vote on changes, etc, at an AGM.
They are not breaking the law if they remove the door and enter the premises. There are clauses in the Lease Contract which allow them access to the property (under certain conditions obviously).
To put it in to perspective, by altering the door without permission, you are in breach of contract.
Simple solution for the OP is to talk to the management agent and get permission from the management company to replace the door with a door of similar style.
Talking to the management agent will be a lot more constructive than listening to some posts on here.0 -
dont be afraid of ur freedom0
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CricketDude wrote: »They might huff and puff at you but at the end of the day they cant do anything to you.
I once changed an external door in an apartment and the management company sent me letter evry few weeks threatening this that and the other. Even trying to fine me. I tore them all up. There is nothing they can do bar send letters.
Basically do the opposite of what this guy says.0 -
Shows how little you actually know there. Management committees?? A management company is a company. There is no committee. It is a company, with a board of directors. The shareholders vote on changes, etc, at an AGM.
They are not breaking the law if they remove the door and enter the premises. There are clauses in the Lease Contract which allow them access to the property (under certain conditions obviously).
To put it in to perspective, by altering the door without permission, you are in breach of contract.
Simple solution for the OP is to talk to the management agent and get permission from the management company to replace the door with a door of similar style.
Talking to the management agent will be a lot more constructive than listening to some posts on here.
Oh jesus. Look who is talking. Shows how little YOU know.
I was on the committees. Thats what we called them. Thats what most committees call them. You can call them boards too. But just because you dont know the different names for a committee, dont accuse someone else of not knowing.
They are breaking the law if they remove your door without your permission.
They are breaking the law by opening your door without your permission, unless it is an emergency that requires entry. The colour of the door does not constitute an emergency.
Who do you guys think you are. Please stop with the huffing and puffing. Typical bull pretending you have the power to do things that you actually have no power to do. Just so you can scare the person into caving in to your demands.
So come on then. Assuming im not dead in the apartment and there is no fire, under what circumstances can you legally force open my front door, take it down and put up another without my permission? I'd like an example.0 -
Remind me to never, ever buy an apartment in Peter's development.
Me too. Unfortunately all he has posted is typical of the people running developments. Donbt really know wha they can and cant do and pretend they know everything. Really just paddling along, hoping they never get called out.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Who do you guys think you are. Please stop with the huffing and puffing. Typical bull pretending you have the power to do things that you actually have no power to do. Just so you can scare the person into caving in to your demands.
You should read the posts. The majority are advising the OP to consult with his management agent and management company. The advice is to talk and get his facts from proper sources, rather than listening to random posters on an internet forum to go change his door and not consider anything else. :rolleyes:
From what I have read, the vast majority of advice is logical and practical. To consult properly with those who are running his development. Of course, a few hotheads are telling him to go do whatever he wants to do and not consider the consequences.
As for who I am ... I've served as a director of a management company for 4 years, and have plenty of practical experience of management company workings.0 -
You should read the posts. The majority are advising the OP to consult with his management agent and management company. The advice is to talk and get his facts from proper sources, rather than listening to random posters on an internet forum to go change his door and not consider anything else. :rolleyes:
From what I have read, the vast majority of advice is logical and practical. To consult properly with those who are running his development. Of course, a few hotheads are telling him to go do whatever he wants to do and not consider the consequences.
As for who I am ... I've served as a director of a management company for 4 years, and have plenty of practical experience of management company workings.
And you dont know what a committee is. :eek:
To be fair most people ive seen running developments are winging it too.
Im sure there is a course for you to go on.
Btw, you still havent answered my question.
I'll post it here again
"Assuming im not dead in the apartment and there is no fire, under what circumstances can you legally force open my front door, take it down and put up another without my permission? I'd like an example."
After all you did writeThey are not breaking the law if they remove the door and enter the premises. There are clauses in the Lease Contract which allow them access to the property (under certain conditions obviously).
Its OK to admit you were lying.0 -
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CricketDude wrote: »And you dont know what a committee is. :eek:
To be fair most people ive seen running developments are winging it too.
Im sure there is a course for you to go on.
Btw, you still havent answered my question.
I'll post it here again
"Assuming im not dead in the apartment and there is no fire, under what circumstances can you legally force open my front door, take it down and put up another without my permission? I'd like an example."
After all you did write
Its OK to admit you were lying.
Normally it would be under the same clause as a management company would go onto your balcony to remove a satellite dish, i.e. you are in breach of contract, I'll also add that we never refer to a management company as a commitee as it is a Company with directors per company law. And the finaly point is "its not your front door" nor do you "own" the apartment you have lease on on it. "Obviously" a management company will not go in all guns blazing and I think three registered letters, a solicitors letter and a person blocking correcting measures when it is them in breach of a legal contract they signed would stand up in well in court. But again I will say this "It will be specifically stated in the lease which varies from development to development".
A lot of people here seem to forget that "they" signed "legally" binding contacts and if you are in breach of that contract it is normally in your lease that the management company can take action to resolve it such as a clause allowing entry for the restoration of the building fabric or failing that as we I stated we will take legal action for breach of contract.
Some people may not find our approach as i detailed here great but this is also the same development which we wired internally the entire complex for satellite at no cost to owners etc to the benifit of all, that owners have a direct number to call for the directors and thanks to the directors there is no agent and fees are lowest in ten years and their is actually a sinking fund.
It is about balancing the rights of the individual with those of the "community/co-operative" they have choosen to buy into and by choosing to do so you loose some aspect of control over the property as you no longer have a freehold on it. As well you need to learn that you decisions are no longer just about what you want but more of your wants against those of the community, i.e. you want to paint your door blue but everyone else wants the same.
IF or not "some" management companies are effective is more a reflection on their management and their lack of education or as you out it "winging it, in our development we had to gain control back from members who had effectively hijacked it due to the prior directors not knowing company law and it was in going to be placed into recievership by the accountants having had run a deficit for some years. Nor was their any effective maintenance, tending or auditing procedures in place. In ten years we have turned it around to be the most desirable developent in the area but with every new owner and tenant comes the same "F**K YOU, It's my apartment and i'll do what I want".0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Me too. Unfortunately all he has posted is typical of the people running developments. Donbt really know wha they can and cant do and pretend they know everything. Really just paddling along, hoping they never get called out.
And this is the same we get from every new owner, we are smart enough to know when someone is in breach of contract and are appointed to act in the developments and owners best interest.
We follow the procedure outlined by our solictors on handing issues such as in this topic and other areas such as arrears so as to ensure as much as legally possible the best outcome for the development as a whole.
The amazing thing is the people who spout this crap about their rights which can often be avoided by a phone call "to" the directors are actually wasting their own money if the management company has to get solicitors involved to the stage of sending letters as it comes from the funds they pay to run the complex.
You should both come and live in our development :-) It's very nice, quiet and the management company directors are always available to take your queries, all we ask is you don't dry your clothes in the car park, use the security railings for drying rugs, store your rubbish outside your door on the common path rather than walking to the communial bins or paint your door blue. In the mean time we will continue to work for "free" and take abuse for doing so.0 -
Oh dear.
Now there are two of you who think they can break a door and enter an apartment without the owners permission.
And then build straw men for the rest of the night to deflect everyone from realizing that they are full of it.
Let me rephrase the question, since you keep answering different questions and continue to insist you can break into someones apartment and change the door on them.
When have you as a management company ever broken into someones apartment and changed their doors without their permission.
I think I know what the answer will be.
Its a simple question, yet the shi1te thats coming out of you to avoid answering it.
peter_dublin, why dont you quote us this clause you have about allowing you to come on to a balcony to remove a dish (which i am aware of), but which also allows you to break into an apartment to change the door.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Oh dear.
Now there are two of you who think they can break a door and enter an apartment without the owners permission.
Therein lies the bottom line. The management company actually own the buildings. If you "buy" an apartment you actually are taking out a long lease (typically 100 years) from the management company for your apartment. This gives you exclusive use of the internal space and any balconies or patios but you do not own anything. You also become a member of the management company.
So technically (depending on each individual lease contract) the MC could do as has been suggested.
The bottom line with the OP's question is that nobody on this board can answer their question - they need to go to their own legal contracts and see what they signed. That is what they are bound by.
I have been a director in our development for 8 years - giving hundreds of hours of my time for free. Over that time I have learned so much that I didn't know at the time I bought - the company law stuff, the intricate details of the contract that I signed when we bought...stuff that was never pointed out by my solicitor. I don't know of anyone who bought an apartment in the boom who was fully prepared for the experience of living in a managed development and all the rights and responsibilities it brings.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Oh dear.
Now there are two of you who think they can break a door and enter an apartment without the owners permission.
And then build straw men for the rest of the night to deflect everyone from realizing that they are full of it.
Let me rephrase the question, since you keep answering different questions and continue to insist you can break into someones apartment and change the door on them.
When have you as a management company ever broken into someones apartment and changed their doors without their permission.
I think I know what the answer will be.
Its a simple question, yet the shi1te thats coming out of you to avoid answering it.
peter_dublin, why dont you quote us this clause you have about allowing you to come on to a balcony to remove a dish (which i am aware of), but which also allows you to break into an apartment to change the door.
CricketDude, my entry re that lease entry was as generic as it should be given it varies per lease and is the same as respect to the statement as the satellite dishes is. They are standard clauses in any lease, your interpetation of breaking and entering applied equally to the logic of entering a balcony to remove a dish as it does to a unit to perform repairs. You stated earlier that it's always in the case of an emergancy, can you qualify an emergancy, have you included in your lease all the possible definitions of an emergancy. We havn't it, is it simply not possible. I am not going to go around and around on this all night and I also not going to start picking through my lease agreement nor any other company documents to satisfy your requirement for a specific line from our development specific lease. Your picking at any possible not absolutly specified and detailed statement. I will go get the lease and post it in full for you when you "Define" exactly for me the "emergancies" which allow you to enter an apartment and I will give you the exact wording of the lease which allows with resonable notice to a owner and notice the requirement to gain entry to perform maintaince and or resolve issues such as the door issue at the heart of this topic.
Or would you rather continue to portray it that the poor owner is going to return home to fine his or her home violated by the management company. They having forcefully gained entry and removed their door in order to effect the contractual agreement.
As I stated earlier we will enforce the leases as necessary, and went on further to clarify if a unit owner impeeds that we would go legal. Non communication etc. is considered by us the same. Stop looking for non specifics in cases where you can't provide them yourself. I have given you more than enough detail as to how we operate within a framework defined by a qualified legal professional and i'll be damned if I will continue to justify it to someone whos approach is to advise the OP to violate a legally binding contractual agreement they signed on the basis of they may or not enforce it because you got away with it in the past.0 -
Can everyone relax?
Anyone (barryd09, peter_dublin, CricketDude, vicwatson, Paulw, athtrasna, who the fug) who has posted 3 or more times on this thread is not to post until Monday.0 -
Therein lies the bottom line. The management company actually own the buildings. If you "buy" an apartment you actually are taking out a long lease (typically 100 years) from the management company for your apartment. This gives you exclusive use of the internal space and any balconies or patios but you do not own anything. You also become a member of the management company.
So technically (depending on each individual lease contract) the MC could do as has been suggested.
The bottom line with the OP's question is that nobody on this board can answer their question - they need to go to their own legal contracts and see what they signed. That is what they are bound by.
I have been a director in our development for 8 years - giving hundreds of hours of my time for free. Over that time I have learned so much that I didn't know at the time I bought - the company law stuff, the intricate details of the contract that I signed when we bought...stuff that was never pointed out by my solicitor. I don't know of anyone who bought an apartment in the boom who was fully prepared for the experience of living in a managed development and all the rights and responsibilities it brings.
Would you listen to yourself. You are saying that you can force your way into someones apartment and change their door. And you guys keep saying.
You cannot force entry into anyones apartment or house. Its illegal.
Maybe you should talk to the guards and ask them what will happen when you do this.
As I said, typical really of management companies. All bark and no bite. They just live off the fear of getting bitten.0 -
You were told not to post until Monday.CricketDude wrote: »Would you listen to yourself. You are saying that you can force your way into someones apartment and change their door. And you guys keep saying.
You cannot force entry into anyones apartment or house. Its illegal.
Maybe you should talk to the guards and ask them what will happen when you do this.
As I said, typical really of management companies. All bark and no bite. They just live off the fear of getting bitten.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Would you listen to yourself. You are saying that you can force your way into someones apartment and change their door.
Not what I said. I pointed out that the management company own the apartment and lease it to the "owner".
The answer to the OP's question is in the OP's lease. Any other comments on here are speculation based on experience in some cases and opinions in others.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Oh jesus. Look who is talking. Shows how little YOU know.
I was on the committees. Thats what we called them. Thats what most committees call them. You can call them boards too. But just because you dont know the different names for a committee, dont accuse someone else of not knowing.
Were you the director of a management company? Registered with the CRO?
I am. When we meet we don't call it a committee meeting, we call it a board meeting. Because that's what it is. By law.
And as directors we have legal obligations and legal authority. Did you?
Are you talking about the same thing?0 -
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Were you the director of a management company? Registered with the CRO?
I am. When we meet we don't call it a committee meeting, we call it a board meeting. Because that's what it is. By law.
And as directors we have legal obligations and legal authority. Did you?
Are you talking about the same thing?
Not everyone wants to be a director. I have been a director, but there is no distinction, bar my name goes on to the directors list and i must sign some documents. Much as I do for my own business. But someone might not want to be a director, but be on the committee. The development is run by committee members and directors.
You might have more people on the committee. Just because they are not directors doesnt make them any lesser people, or less involved in the management.
But you should know this, or else you should not be a director.
Anyway, i just wanted to prove the point that management companies are a lot of talk and full of lies, much like the so called directors in this thread. All telling us of the punishment you can inflict on somebody for changing their door up to and including breaking in and changing their door.
Several times here I asked you guys to produce evidence to back up your claims that you could break into someones apartment and remove their door without their permission.
Some nuggets here.They can actually remove the door, replace it with one that fits the development, and then bill you for the whole thing.They are not breaking the law if they remove the door and enter the premises. There are clauses in the Lease Contract which allow them access to the property (under certain conditions obviously).So technically (depending on each individual lease contract) the MC could do as has been suggested.
And, no there are no conditions in a lease that will allow you to enter and remove a door without the owners permission, just because they changed their door.
I asked a garda friend last night, and he laughed. As I said here already, it really is illegal. He gave me some more instances of things where the management company tried to do things they "thought" they were allowed to do and ended up getting into deep trouble. I might start another thread with some of those.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Just because they are not directors doesnt make them any lesser people, or less involved in the management.
Yes, it does. Only a director has legal power to make changes and do things. These "committee" members have no more power than any individual member of the company, and in fact, if you have enough members to form a quorum, you could actually be having an EGM at these "committee" meetings, which would be in breach of company law, since you haven't invited all members of the management company.CricketDude wrote: »All telling us of the punishment you can inflict on somebody for changing their door up to and including breaking in and changing their door.
As I said from the very very start, and repeated each time, the OP needs to speak to his management agent and management company. The Lease Contract and Articles of Association of each management company can differ and can have different clauses that permit different activities.CricketDude wrote: »I asked a garda friend last night, and he laughed.
I'd more trust what a solicitor says than a Garda.
The OP needs to be sure of what he is doing before he goes and makes changes. That is all I have said here, it's between the OP and his management company. What you say may apply to your management company but may not apply to others.
Our management company has in it's contrac the objective to "repair, maintain, decorate, preserve and improve the Estate" and as part of that, the Lease contract states that members "must comply with and observe all regulations as laid down by the management company", which can include "maintaining the premises in a first class decorative condition in line with the development". That would include keeping doors in a similar style to all the others. The members also must "Allow the management company or agents duly appointed at all reasonable times to enter upon the premises" and "the cost of carrying out such works shall be a debt due to the Lessor and shall be recoverable forthwith by action".
The OP needs to consider his own contracts and clauses, and should talk to his management agent and management company.
That's my last posting on the topic.0 -
Yes, it does. Only a director has legal power to make changes and do things. These "committee" members have no more power than any individual member of the company, and in fact, if you have enough members to form a quorum, you could actually be having an EGM at these "committee" meetings, which would be in breach of company law, since you haven't invited all members of the management company.
As I said from the very very start, and repeated each time, the OP needs to speak to his management agent and management company. The Lease Contract and Articles of Association of each management company can differ and can have different clauses that permit different activities.
I'd more trust what a solicitor says than a Garda.
The OP needs to be sure of what he is doing before he goes and makes changes. That is all I have said here, it's between the OP and his management company. What you say may apply to your management company but may not apply to others.
Our management company has in it's contrac the objective to "repair, maintain, decorate, preserve and improve the Estate" and as part of that, the Lease contract states that members "must comply with and observe all regulations as laid down by the management company", which can include "maintaining the premises in a first class decorative condition in line with the development". That would include keeping doors in a similar style to all the others. The members also must "Allow the management company or agents duly appointed at all reasonable times to enter upon the premises" and "the cost of carrying out such works shall be a debt due to the Lessor and shall be recoverable forthwith by action".
The OP needs to consider his own contracts and clauses, and should talk to his management agent and management company.
That's my last posting on the topic.
You clearly dont know what you are doing. As I said earlier. A common problem with the people who who think that just because they are a director that they automatically are right in everything.
And dont try to brush under the carpet what you said.
Here is what you said ... AGAIN.They can actually remove the door, replace it with one that fits the development, and then bill you for the whole thing.They are not breaking the law if they remove the door and enter the premises. There are clauses in the Lease Contract which allow them access to the property (under certain conditions obviously).
Did your solicitor tell you this? I dont think so.
You made it up and now that you've been called out on it are just trying to pretend you never said it.0 -
It all depends on the leases signed...I'm starting to sound like a broken record here but I've seen all kinds of clauses in leases.
PaulW is one of the most knowledgeable people in the country on Management Companies through the work of the Apartment Owners Network and if he says they have clauses that allow entry as he has detailed, I would be 100% certain this is the case.0 -
Folks, last warning, less of the snideness.
Not that they are right, but short of a EGM / AGM or similar procedure, theirs is the only opinion / vote that counts.CricketDude wrote: »You clearly dont know what you are doing. As I said earlier. A common problem with the people who who think that just because they are a director that they automatically are right in everything.
Ordinary members, while not lesser people, do have lesser powers and abilities under company law.0
This discussion has been closed.
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