England U20 V Ireland U20

GerM

Clegg wrote: »

Before tonight he was passing too high and now he's passing too low.

I think we can all agree there needs to be a massive improvement in his passing. He has every other tool to be a very good scrumhalf though.

Strong defensively, big boot, good around the fringes.

There's a TOL comparison begging to be made....

liam12989

can someone elaborate on the english players behaviour ye guys are talking about? i didnt see it.....

ThisRegard

How disappointing was that, going from a potential grand slam to finishing third. Still, only one game lost, it was the points that dropped them down.

shuffol

Clegg wrote: »

Before tonight he was passing too high and now he's passing too low.

I think we can all agree there needs to be a massive improvement in his passing. He has every other tool to be a very good scrumhalf though.

He's a classy player but a scrumhalf cant go anywhere without a pass, hopefully he'll be much improved come next year, its amazing the amount of scrumhalfs we produce at this level who cant pass though, Marmion too might as well have ran to the outhalf with the ball for all the steps he was taking.

Clegg

GerM wrote: »

Strong defensively, big boot, good around the fringes.

There's a TOL comparison begging to be made....

I've yet to see Mc Grath meercat his way around the pitch. He wasn't great tonight but he doesn't seem to be brainless like TOL appears to be half the time.

Right now Mc Grath is more akin to Murray.

Tox56

Clegg wrote: »

I've yet to see Mc Grath meercat his way around the pitch. He wasn't great tonight but he doesn't seem to be brainless like TOL appears to be half the time.

Right now Mc Grath is more akin to Murray.

Murray has an excellent pass though, he just doesn't always use it effectively.

rrpc

GerM wrote: »

Strong defensively, big boot, good around the fringes.

There's a TOL comparison begging to be made....

That's odious

He looked quite slow tonight, Marmion came on and speeded things up a lot which surprised me as I thought he was the slow one. McGrath did not have one of his better game tonight. Not impressed with our 13 either, got stepped easily for a try and was not good defensively elsewhere.

Generally our execution was poor, forcing things far too much and kicking stupidly too many times.

.ak

liam12989 wrote: »

can someone elaborate on the english players behaviour ye guys are talking about? i didnt see it.....

At the beginning of the match during God Save the Queen an English player clicked his fingers at the camera and gave it a wink.

Then at the end of the match he ran up to the camera shouting 'You can't touch this!' whilst waving his fingers in front of his face.

I know they're under 20 but talk about childish...

ormond lad

GerM wrote: »

For some reason I had it in my head that the cut off point was later in the year. Seems very harsh in some respects. They're all out of school only 10 months. Underlines how much experience we had in this group. So many lads there that were born in Jan/Feb of 1992. Jackson, Marmion, Qualter, Henderson, SCM, Conneely and Marsh.

Cut off date has been jan 1st for last few years
Not harsh at all considering schools cup is now 19s.
Ie many of the top schools cup and youths players at 19s level this season will be playing provincial 20s in september and be playing 1 year of 20s at the start of college and then going on to play senior club level and above in the following seasons
Average performance judging by the 2nd half which i saw on tv. JJ played well but we were well beaten
The english back 3 were very dangerous
You could clearly see how many of the english lads have been involved in pro academys since 16 while most of our best young players are only involved with their school who do their best to limit the role of coaches from the provincial set ups in developing players incase it impacts on the winning of the must win schools cups

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

At the beginning of the match during God Save the Queen an English player clicked his fingers at the camera and gave it a wink.

Then at the end of the match he ran up to the camera shouting 'You can't touch this!' whilst waving his fingers in front of his face.

I know they're under 20 but talk about childish...

There was more than that, there was the general arguing with the ref, sarcastic claps on the head, "sledging" and some off-the-ball stuff.

Sounds a bit precious to be complaining about it, it is rugby after all, but they just looked immature.

rrpc

ormond lad wrote: »

Cut off date has been jan 1st for last few years
Not harsh at all considering schools cup is now 19s.
Ie many of the top schools cup and youths players at 19s level this season will be playing provincial 20s in september and be playing 1 year of 20s at the start of college and then going on to play senior club level and above in the following seasons

Club age level is under 21s, not under 20s. Most school leavers will have at least two seasons of U21s before going senior unless they are called up early.

Clegg

Tox56 wrote: »

Murray has an excellent pass though, he just doesn't always use it effectively.

I meant for the comparison to be in a more general sense. Mc Grath and Murray both have the potential to be very good players but need to work on the flaws in their game. Mc Grath needs to improve his passing and Murray needs to be faster to the ball when it's presented.

I fear TOL may be a lost cause at this stage.

rrpc

Tox56 wrote: »

There was more than that, there was the general arguing with the ref, sarcastic claps on the head, "sledging" and some off-the-ball stuff.

Sounds a bit precious to be complaining about it, it is rugby after all, but they just looked immature.

Overdose of testosterone and not enough wisdom. The usual lot of the adolescent...

irishbucsfan

Just back from the match.

Disappointing to lose but they were a better team quite clearly. Our guys needed 20 minutes just to get used to the level of physicality.

Standouts for me were the two boys in the row, gilsenan, Conan, hanrahan and most of all Stuart Olding who will surely be a big part of the team next year. Special mention to Scannell who was clearly the main leader on the field and really seemed to have the boys going. Coughlan looked good when he came on.

Coneely was very disappointing. Classic Neil Best tackler. Hopefully he'll improve because that was a woeful display. McGrath equally disappointing for someone with so much hype behind him. Chris Farrell made a couple of big errors but looked very comfortable at times as well.

England have some really excellent players. Their 6, Kvesic, was about the only player on the pitch who looked at pro standard (although their 9 was class).

We are clearly very weak out wide. If Coughlan Murray is back for the world cup I think a back 3 of Olding, Layden, Coughlan-Murray would be a vast improvement.

I would be very surprised if we see many of these guys at pro level within the next year... Apart from Henderson and Jackson perhaps.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just back from the match.

Disappointing to lose but they were a better team quite clearly. Our guys needed 20 minutes just to get used to the level of physicality.

Standouts for me were the two boys in the row, gilsenan, Conan, hanrahan and most of all Stuart Olding who will surely be a big part of the team next year. Special mention to Scannell who was clearly the main leader on the field and really seemed to have the boys going. Coughlan looked good when he came on.

Coneely was very disappointing. Classic Neil Best tackler. Hopefully he'll improve because that was a woeful display. McGrath equally disappointing for someone with so much hype behind him. Chris Farrell made a couple of big errors but looked very comfortable at times as well.

England have some really excellent players. Their 6, Kvesic, was about the only player on the pitch who looked at pro standard (although their 9 was class).

We are clearly very weak out wide. If Coughlan Murray is back for the world cup I think a back 3 of Olding, Layden, Coughlan-Murray would be a vast improvement.

I would be very surprised if we see many of these guys at pro level within the next year... Apart from Henderson and Jackson perhaps.

I have been really impressed by Kvesic whenever I've seen him play. Stood out whenever I've seen him for Worcester. Was surprised he was so young, good prospect.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just back from the match.

Disappointing to lose but they were a better team quite clearly. Our guys needed 20 minutes just to get used to the level of physicality.

Standouts for me were the two boys in the row, gilsenan, Conan, hanrahan and most of all Stuart Olding who will surely be a big part of the team next year. Special mention to Scannell who was clearly the main leader on the field and really seemed to have the boys going. Coughlan looked good when he came on.

Coneely was very disappointing. Classic Neil Best tackler. Hopefully he'll improve because that was a woeful display. McGrath equally disappointing for someone with so much hype behind him. Chris Farrell made a couple of big errors but looked very comfortable at times as well.

England have some really excellent players. Their 6, Kvesic, was about the only player on the pitch who looked at pro standard (although their 9 was class).

We are clearly very weak out wide. If Coughlan Murray is back for the world cup I think a back 3 of Olding, Layden, Coughlan-Murray would be a vast improvement.

I would be very surprised if we see many of these guys at pro level within the next year... Apart from Henderson and Jackson perhaps.

Think Olding is an outhalf, looked very good when he came on though.

irishbucsfan

Must be said actually that whoever was calling our defensive lineout was very very poor at it.

Hagz

.ak wrote: »

At the beginning of the match during God Save the Queen an English player clicked his fingers at the camera and gave it a wink.

Then at the end of the match he ran up to the camera shouting 'You can't touch this!' whilst waving his fingers in front of his face.

I know they're under 20 but talk about childish...

Reminded me of when Jerry Sexton gave the finger to the camera after the u-19 championship win. Odd that he was starting on that team and yet he's nowhere to be seen now.

rrpc wrote: »

Not impressed with our 13 either, got stepped easily for a try and was not good defensively elsewhere.

I think Farrel's more suited to 12, I'd imagine it's where he'll play next year.

irishbucsfan

shuffol wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just back from the match.

Disappointing to lose but they were a better team quite clearly. Our guys needed 20 minutes just to get used to the level of physicality.

Standouts for me were the two boys in the row, gilsenan, Conan, hanrahan and most of all Stuart Olding who will surely be a big part of the team next year. Special mention to Scannell who was clearly the main leader on the field and really seemed to have the boys going. Coughlan looked good when he came on.

Coneely was very disappointing. Classic Neil Best tackler. Hopefully he'll improve because that was a woeful display. McGrath equally disappointing for someone with so much hype behind him. Chris Farrell made a couple of big errors but looked very comfortable at times as well.

England have some really excellent players. Their 6, Kvesic, was about the only player on the pitch who looked at pro standard (although their 9 was class).

We are clearly very weak out wide. If Coughlan Murray is back for the world cup I think a back 3 of Olding, Layden, Coughlan-Murray would be a vast improvement.

I would be very surprised if we see many of these guys at pro level within the next year... Apart from Henderson and Jackson perhaps.

Think Olding is an outhalf, looked very good when he came on though.

Olding is a 10 yes but he plays 15 as well, has done so a few times at a few levels

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

Reminded me of when Jerry Sexton gave the finger to the camera after the u-19 championship win. Odd that he was starting on that team and yet he's nowhere to be seen now.

Leinster sub-academy.

CIARAN_BOYLE

GerM wrote: »

Strong defensively, big boot, good around the fringes.

There's a TOL comparison begging to be made....

Actually a Ben Foden comparison was closer to my thoughts. A true talent who is a little short in one aspect which if it doesn't improve might mean that he won't develop into a top scrum half. If he doesn't improve in the next couple of years maybe someone should look into another position for him because he is a big enough talent that we shouldn' let a problem rule him out of a career in professional rugby

ormond lad

rrpc wrote: »

Club age level is under 21s, not under 20s. Most school leavers will have at least two seasons of U21s before going senior unless they are called up early.

I know clubs level is 21s but international level is 20s and many school levers only have 1 year of being underage for 20s

Hagz

He's the youngest player on the team along with Farrell so I'm going to reserve judgement on him for another year at the very least. I'm sure that once he settles into the academy and starts to play a bit of 'A' rugby he'll blossom just as Conway and Macken did. There's no denying that he's got something special.

boynesider

I saw enough of Hanrahan tonight (behind a well beaten pack) to say with a bit of confidence that he is going to be a full international. Has everything you could want in a player and he looked great when he went to out-half towards the end.

Stuart Olding also looked to have some class when he came on.

All in all, it was disappointing but the disparity between the two teams in terms of physical development meant that it was never really a contest of rugby ability. The Irish players will be going into their academies pretty much full time now and this will make a huge difference in the space of a few years. As we can see with Wales, having an all-conquering underage sides isn't really that relevant to having a good senior side. At this stage it's individuals and their potential that matters. Best of luck to all the lads anyway, I'm sure they can make an impact at the World Cup if they stay clear of SA, NZ and England.

thomond2006

The English U20 sides always seems to be more developed physically, I wonder why that is.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

The English U20 sides always seems to be more developed physically, I wonder why that is.

Professional for longer at this stage.

boynesider

thomond2006 wrote: »

The English U20 sides always seems to be more developed physically, I wonder why that is.

Because they're basically doing the training of a professional Aviva Premiership player at a far younger age.

Its been like this for years, but as we have seen repeatedly, it might make your underage teams look like world beaters but by the time they're trying to make an impact at Senior level it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Someone like Conor Gilsenan is a perfect example. He looked woefully underdeveloped compared to the English flankers, but I would be fairly certain that in 3 or 4 years time he will be every bit as good as them, and possibly even better.

Cpt_Blackbeard

I haven't managed to see much of the U20 games this year, the threads have made a very refreshing read. There is general want to see all the young lads succeed and none of the provincial sniping seen every where else in the forum. Its great to see.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I haven't managed to see much of the U20 games this year, the threads have made a very refreshing read. There is general want to see all the young lads succeed and none of the provincial sniping seen every where else in the forum. Its great to see.

perhaps these two are correlated?

:pac:

MyKeyG

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I haven't managed to see much of the U20 games this year, the threads have made a very refreshing read. There is general want to see all the young lads succeed and none of the provincial sniping seen every where else in the forum. Its great to see.

Because you'll find that it's real rugby fans who watch the other levels and abstain from provincial nastiness.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

perhaps these two are correlated?

:pac:

corelation does not imply causation

but yeah a lot of interprovincial bull comes from those who don't care about the sport and only watch some senior games

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

perhaps these two are correlated?

:pac:

Was going to mention that myself

Teferi

MyKeyG wrote: »

Because you'll find that it's real rugby fans who watch the other levels and abstain from provincial nastiness.

Lol. The snobbishness of this sentences is unbearable.

Just because someone only watches professional rugby doesn't make them somehow less of a lover of the sport than you.

MyKeyG

Teferi wrote: »

Lol. The snobbishness of this sentences is unbearable.

Just because someone only watches professional rugby doesn't make them somehow less of a lover of the sport than you.

I may be erroneous in my comments but I don't see how I'm being snobby. Yes I do believe that the folks who brave the elements every hung over Sunday to either support (or play for) their local junior club all the way up the chain to the glories of the Aviva deserve a bit of bloody credit. It's my opinion and I pass no apology for it just because it struck a nerve with you!

Hagz

MyKeyG wrote: »

I may be erroneous in my comments but I don't see how I'm being snobby. Yes I do believe that the folks who brave the elements every hung over Sunday to either support (or play for) their local junior club all the way up the chain to the glories of the Aviva deserve a bit of bloody credit. It's my opinion and I pass no apology for it just because it struck a nerve with you!

Wouldn't hurt to maybe put an IMO in the comment you made then. Instead of 'you'll find'. You'll find is a sort of matter of factish.

shuffol

Anybody cop the goosestep by the sub hooker Rael, very Schalk Brits.

roycon

thought mcgrath was very good tbh of what i saw. what exactly do people think he did badly. maybe one or two box kicks was all i can think of but id blame them more on the chasing line because the execution was perfect. the front row and the back line defense was really where ireland were out beasted tonight.
hanrahan and mcgrath look the part - both balanced players as in one particular attribute doesnt just stand out. they can pass kick tackle run. expect hanrahan to be playing for munster as soon as hes physically able for it and same for mcgrath for leinster

Podge_irl

roycon wrote: »

what exactly do people think he did badly.

Pass

MyKeyG

Hagz wrote: »

Wouldn't hurt to maybe put an IMO in the comment you made then. Instead of 'you'll find'. You'll find is a sort of matter of factish.

Are people so threatened by opinions that they need the assurance of being told it's an opinion? Of course nothing I or anyone says is matter of fact but if people need things spelled out for them then I'll oblige from now on.

Hagz

MyKeyG wrote: »

Are people so threatened by opinions that they need the assurance of being told it's an opinion? Of course nothing I or anyone says is matter of fact but if people need things spelled out for them then I'll oblige from now on.

Calm down. No, nobodies threatened.

IMO;)

MyKeyG

Hagz wrote: »

Calm down. No, nobodies threatened.

IMO;)

I'm perfectly calm I'm just sick and tired of making off the cuff remarks and people acting like I suggested we should drown new born babies in kitten blood.

In fairness the original reply didn't have IMO when they called me a snob!

bilston

The English slowed our ball down very well and this made it difficult for us to get any momentum.

They were also more powerful and quicker around the park. This led to too many missed tackles.

Haven't the English lads have been in their academies for a year or two longer than our players? If that's the case then as someone else said give it 12-24 months and our boys will be just as quick and powerful but no less talented.

Anyway it's been a good Championship for the U20s, where is the JWC this year?

BTW I think anyone who watched that England side last night could probably see where Fez was coming from this week in his comments about arrogant English age group side. Their mothers couldn't love some of them. I know I shouldn't but I couldn't blame Henderson for the elbow.

GerM

roycon wrote: »

thought mcgrath was very good tbh of what i saw. what exactly do people think he did badly.

Passing was way off. If you get to watch it again, you'll spot repeated passes going to ground before they made their receiver and ended up being knocked on. His passing was loopy and sloppy. More than once Jackson had to check and spin around to catch a pass behind him. Primary function of a 9 is to get the ball from the ruck to his receiver in as clean and swift a manner as possible and he has a long way to go in this respect. Has the time to get it right though. If he has the attitude, last night will act as a catalyst for him.

bilston

GerM wrote: »

Passing was way off. If you get to watch it again, you'll spot repeated passes going to ground before they made their receiver and ended up being knocked on. His passing was loopy and sloppy. More than once Jackson had to check and spin around to catch a pass behind him. Primary function of a 9 is to get the ball from the ruck to his receiver in as clean and swift a manner as possible and he has a long way to go in this respect. Has the time to get it right though. If he has the attitude, last night will act as a catalyst for him.

I've questioned McGrath's passing a bit before, however he was getting some particularly scruffy ball last night which believe me as a member of the scrum half's union I can tell you is no good to any scrum half.

TimeToShine

The england full back and flanker (6) were fantastic IMO. Other than that we could've competed with more time.

I agree with the above posters, McGrath is a serious talent but how he's gotten this far with that pass is amazing. He really needs to put some work into it. His box kicking and all round defense is very good, just needs a solid pass to go with it.

rrpc

bilston wrote: »

I've questioned McGrath's passing a bit before, however he was getting some particularly scruffy ball last night which believe me as a member of the scrum half's union I can tell you is no good to any scrum half.

His passing off his left hand is the problem, off his right isn't bad and normally his left doesn't let him down too much but as you say, under pressure it got a lot worse.

That can be trained though and it's an obvious area to work on.

jm08

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I haven't managed to see much of the U20 games this year, the threads have made a very refreshing read. There is general want to see all the young lads succeed and none of the provincial sniping seen every where else in the forum. Its great to see.

Only so much sniping to be had with 1 or 2 Munster players involved

Digifriendly

TimeToShine wrote: »

The england full back and flanker (6) were fantastic IMO. Other than that we could've competed with more time.

What does more time mean? Should the match have been longer? Should Ireland have had more preparation time? Or do you mean more time with the ball?

decisions

I'm massively dissapointed, not because we didn't win but because we didn't turn up. The Grand Slam pressure got to them, decision making at times was very poor, passing was sloppy and for the first 60 min we couldn't put a few passes together and when we did we dropped the ball. At 60, when England started to tire a little and we started making half breaks we still didn't ever look like going over.

But they are still young, there is talent there and I think that we have a team capible of playing some good rugby this summer.

rrpc

decisions wrote: »

I'm massively dissapointed, not because we didn't win but because we didn't turn up. The Grand Slam pressure got to them, decision making at times was very poor, passing was sloppy and for the first 60 min we couldn't put a few passes together and when we did we dropped the ball. At 60, when England started to tire a little and we started making half breaks we still didn't ever look like going over.

But they are still young, there is talent there and I think that we have a team capible of playing some good rugby this summer.

I think the opening try from England shocked them and they started forcing things and inevitably giving possession back to England when the game called for cool heads and calm decision making. Far too much possession given away cheaply and far too many errors trying to play catch up.

But we haven't had much in the way of penetration throughout the tournament, Olding coming on gave a brief insight into what we were missing, but it needed more than one player making half breaks. McGrath looked slow probably because England competed strongly at the breakdown and without quick ball we were always on the back foot; attacking behind the gain line.

Still a great tournament for the lads and they can only improve come the JWC.