Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

kmart6

Eathrin wrote: »

What's the situation with Nani atm?

Fergie said last week he's back in training and should be available soon!

Nalz

kmart6 wrote: »

Fergie said last week he's back in training and should be available soon!

If we win tomorrow night he'll start vs Villa I bet.

Copper_pipe

Never knew paul pogba had a brother playing for wrexham, Mathias Pogba

Fenix

Yep, seen him at a couple of the Utd reserve games Paul featured in.

Copper_pipe

Fenix wrote: »

Yep, seen him at a couple of the Utd reserve games Paul featured in.

Any good?

killwill

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Fenix wrote: »

Yep, seen him at a couple of the Utd reserve games Paul featured in.

Any good?

obviously not, he plays for Wrexham!!!!!!!

Samich

http://www.givemefootball.com/premier-league/scholes-set-for-one-year-united-deal

Just reports

But..

Eathrin

kmart6 wrote: »

Fergie said last week he's back in training and should be available soon!

Can't wait to see him back in action, I know he's got consistency problems but when he's on form he can be such a dangerous and exciting player, brings a whole new dynamic to our play.

Paul Tergat

Id start Nani ahead of Young. No brainer for me anyway

Samich

Eathrin wrote: »

Can't wait to see him back in action, I know he's got consistency problems but when he's on form he can be such a dangerous and exciting player, brings a whole new dynamic to our play.

I don't think he has anymore, he's getting very consistent I think. very reliable and does his fair share of defending too, not lazy.

Samich

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Id start Nani ahead of Young. No brainer for me anyway

I probably agree, love the way Young has a free role at times, he's all over the pitch sometimes.

MoscowFlyer

Without question. Young is a pretty limited player when it comes to the top level.

Patsy fyre

Playing young just behind rooney may be an option aswel. He has played well there in the past. Wellbeck and chico aren't in form atm so I wouldn't mind seeing it. I'd expect a similar team to the weekend with giggs in for Scholes and smalling in for Rio. Wigan are fighting for their lives so expect a dog fight.

Pro. F

lordgoat wrote: »

The discussion is about the best CM we've had this season. So Carrick can only be better than the others who've played there. Which he has been, comfortably. Not ignoring anything.

Well that wasn't all that the discussion was about. The fact still remains that being the best of the United CMs this season (which I disagree with, but whatever) is not an impressive feat.

lordgoat wrote: »

You don't put value (imo) on the role that Carrick has and that is to allow Scholes and whoever is next to him in the middle to play the more impressive expansive passing game. I'm done now, until you decide to say that Carrick's been poor this season. Then i'll probably call you on it again.

I do put a value on having a defensively sound central midfielder. By being reliable defensively that CM allows Fergie to field the likes of Scholes or Cleverley, as the other CM, who are more than just good on the ball but are weak defensively. It's the classic central combination, of course I put a value on both roles in it.

The thing is, both central midfielders, even the defensive one, have to have at least a minimum standard quality of close control. Carrick does the defensive part well, but he is not up to standard on the ball. He cannot properly handle being put under pressure when he's in possession.

Having a one dimensional central midfielder like that who is weak in possession is a big hindrance for a club competing at the top in Europe. Yes we need a CM who is good at defending, but they have to be good on the ball as well. Not as good as Scholes or Xavi or whatever, but better than Carrick.

kryogen wrote: »

Can I just say that comparing Carrick and Scholes is completely stupid.

They are not comparable, they do not do the same job for the team and as a partnership are pretty damn ****ing good.

How can you judge Carrick by Scholes criteria and vice versa.

Grand whatever. If you want to narrow it to ''Carrick has been our best defensive central midfielder this season'', go ahead. It is ridiculous that anyone would use that to try and prove that he is a good player at this level.

Paul Tergat

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Playing young just behind rooney may be an option aswel. He has played well there in the past. Wellbeck and chico aren't in form atm so I wouldn't mind seeing it.

im always concerned about playing Rooney furthest up top. his natural tendency is to come deep looking to run the game and if he does that theres no focal point. Having said that, the goal return we got from him the season he played that role was his best yet so maybe an option.

I put the other 2 strikers form down to rotation tbh. Take Evans as an example, he's looked shaky when he comes in for 2 games here and there but give him a run, build his confidence and hes flying

Kylo Ren

Give Hernandez a run of games and he will be banging them in.

kryogen

Pro. F wrote: »

Grand whatever. If you want to narrow it to ''Carrick has been our best defensive central midfielder this season'', go ahead. It is ridiculous that anyone would use that to try and prove that he is a good player at this level.

I dont need to narrow it down, they are two completely different players with two completely different roles. They are not playing the same position. Take Barcelona for example, you would not judge Busquets by Xavis criteria would you?

I dont need to prove anything about Carrick, he has been very good this season, I'm ok with you not agreeing with that, doesn't really have much of a bearing on whether he has or has not had a good season does it.

I have in the past been one of his most vocal critics, but I am not completely blinkered and have no issue giving credit where it is due. Scholes has looked wonderful since his return, you put Cleverley next to him in the middle and he wont look as good, same with Giggs, same with Anderson, none of them allow Scholes to play the way Carrick has this season.

When I think about it, I actually find it ridiculous that anybody would refuse to acknowledge Carricks contribution this season.

kmart6

Shur Carrick has just been like the last few seasons....sh1te :pac:

kryogen

Pro. F

kryogen wrote: »

I dont need to narrow it down, they are two completely different players with two completely different roles. They are not playing the same position. Take Barcelona for example, you would not judge Busquets by Xavis criteria would you? I dont need to prove anything about Carrick, he has been very good this season, I'm ok with you not agreeing with that, doesn't really have much of a bearing on whether he has or has not had a good season does it.

I have in the past been one of his most vocal critics, but I am not completely blinkered and have no issue giving credit where it is due. Scholes has looked wonderful since his return, you put Cleverley next to him in the middle and he wont look as good, same with Giggs, same with Anderson, none of them allow Scholes to play the way Carrick has this season.

What the fúck? Did you actually even read the other part of my post that you quoted? Why are you trying to explain the difference between defensive central midfielders and more creative ones to me? I obviously understand the difference.

Lordgoat was the one who was claiming that Carrick had been our best central midfielder this season (he didn't bother to differentiate between the different types of CM) and so using that as evidence that he is a good player at this level. Because we have such limited options in central midfield, that is clearly not an impressive achievement. If we add the extra possible qualification of position that you pointed out, between the defensive and creative CMs, then that achievement becomes even less impressive. I pointed that out mostly for Lordgoat, since it was him that had been talking about Carrick being our best central midfielder in the first place.

kryogen wrote: »

When I think about it, I actually find it ridiculous that anybody would refuse to acknowledge Carricks contribution this season.

He has done the same as he has done every season - broken up attacks and picked simple passes. You might think that is impressive, but if you realised how much space our midfield is given by most PL teams you would understand that it is not.

Orando Broom

Keno 92 wrote: »

Give Hernandez a run of games and he will be banging them in.

I think so too.

A few things people have to remember about Hernandez. Firstly his season preparations were disrupted by the head/brain issues he started to have on the pre-season tour.

He played summer football through 2010 and 2011 coupled with an exceptionally long first season in England; a league noted for the need for physical endurance.

Stitch those factors with his midseason injuries and the fact that he is now a known quantity in England and the opposition prepare for him a little more thouroughly you could argue that Hernnadez actually had a very good second season.

One thing that I fell often times gets ignored in the narrative of a players season is the contribution to the team by his mere presence. Hernandez has to be prepared for in a certain way. I'm not sure teams can play too high a line against him as he is so quick off the mark a ball over the top is almost fatal to them. This fact (I'm not saying it's the only one but it is a salient point) means potentially that United's midfield and defence rarely have to contend with a pressing game when he is on the pitch as it is too big a risk for the opposition to take.

There are no actual stats you can present for the impact of just a players presence on a pitch but I believe one of the reasons Hernandez is having a tougher second season is that he being watched a little tighter. If that is the case you could logically assume that there are gaps elsewhere in the dfeence be it at either full back position, midfield or centre back. Assuming a teams wouldn't ignore the presence of Rooney this would mean that one of the Full back positions or a midfield position is a little more lax than usual and is presented for exploitation.

This is just a case of thinking out loud as much as anytihng because you could have any opposing player on any given day play out of thier skin and nullify the threat of several United players or the United players themselves could be below par; but it a point I felt is worth examining.

ScummyMan

I agree with Pro.F here, ill never sing Carrick's praises after his performance vs Barca last year.

Yes he looks very good in the PL, this is because of the poor standard he has time and space to get the ball down and find a pass. He is found out in Europe when teams put him under pressure he sh!ts himself and kicks it away. Time and time again he has shown he doesn't have the touch.

PhlegmyMoses

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

I agree with Pro.F here, ill never sing Carrick's praises after his performance vs Barca last year.

Yes he looks very good in the PL, this is because of the poor standard he has time and space to get the ball down and find a pass. He is found out in Europe when teams put him under pressure he sh!ts himself and kicks it away. Time and time again he has shown he doesn't have the touch.

Carrick is a good player. Saying you won't sing his praises because he struggled against possibly the best club side ever is unfair. All midfielders at the top in Europe have struggled against that team.

Nalz

Random Carrick fact!

Everytime Carrick assisted this season in the league United won 5-0

Red Crow

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

I agree with Pro.F here, ill never sing Carrick's praises after his performance vs Barca last year.

Yes he looks very good in the PL, this is because of the poor standard he has time and space to get the ball down and find a pass. He is found out in Europe when teams put him under pressure he sh!ts himself and kicks it away. Time and time again he has shown he doesn't have the touch.

Carrick is a good player. Saying you won't sing his praises because he struggled against possibly the best club side ever is unfair. All midfielders at the top in Europe have struggled against that team.

It's hilarious and extremely retarded. Carrick's isn't in the top echelons of European midfielders. But he's a pretty good one and has performed well in Europe.

The comparison is Barcelona. The fact is those guys have made Ozil, Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez etc. look extremely average. Giving out about Carrick is 'cool' as a United fan.

ScummyMan

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Carrick is a good player. Saying you won't sing his praises because he struggled against possibly the best club side ever is unfair. All midfielders at the top in Europe have struggled against that team.

Not just Barca though, he was catastrophic that day but he was also crap against other team in Europe. I can't remember a good performance of his when the team put him under pressure.

s_carnage

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

I agree with Pro.F here, ill never sing Carrick's praises after his performance vs Barca last year.

Yes he looks very good in the PL, this is because of the poor standard he has time and space to get the ball down and find a pass. He is found out in Europe when teams put him under pressure he sh!ts himself and kicks it away. Time and time again he has shown he doesn't have the touch.

Brilliant logic there. Seriously take a bow.

Don't know how no one every came up with that before so by carrying on this wonderful logic I shall never be singing praises for Giggs, Evra, Valencia & Hernandez who were all just as bad as Carrick if not worse that day.

Carrick has been wonderful this season and really stepped up when we needed him with all the injuries. He played 90 minutes since his return in most of our league games and has been one of our most consistent players. Really can't understand how its always the same one or two no matter what they do will always get a bashing even when they are playing well.

ScummyMan

s_carnage wrote: »

Brilliant logic there. Seriously take a bow.

Don't know how no one every came up with that before so by carrying on this wonderful logic I shall never be singing praises for Giggs, Evra, Valencia & Hernandez who were all just as bad as Carrick if not worse that day.

Carrick has been wonderful this season and really stepped up when we needed him with all the injuries. He played 90 minutes since his return in most of our league games and has been one of our most consistent players. Really can't understand how its always the same one or two no matter what they do will always get a bashing even when they are playing well.

He has been "wonderful" has he? Well feck me, given the time he has I could make those five yard passes vs the likes of Bolton. Do you think he has been wonderful in Europe? No. The standard in the Premier League is woeful, so he stands out. In Europe he is shown up time and time again by better quality midfielders.

I agree he has done quite well for us in the PL, however I refuse to admit that he is a quality midfielder because of how he is shown up in Europe.

Red Crow

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

He has been "wonderful" has he? Well feck me, given the time he has I could make those five yard passes vs the likes of Bolton. Do you think he has been wonderful is Europe. No. The standard in the Premier League is woeful, so he stands out. In Europe he is shown up time and time again by better quality midfielders.

I agree he has done quite well for us in the PL, however I refuse to admit that he is a quality midfielder because of how he is shown up in Europe.

What about Schalke away last year? Chelsea home and away? In the 0-0 against Marseille he done well.

He stood out in those games.

s_carnage

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

He has been "wonderful" has he? Well feck me, given the time he has I could make those five yard passes vs the likes of Bolton. Do you think he has been wonderful in Europe? No. The standard in the Premier League is woeful, so he stands out. In Europe he is shown up time and time again by better quality midfielders.

I agree he has done quite well for us in the PL, however I refuse to admit that he is a quality midfielder because of how he is shown up in Europe.

Oh the old 5 yard passes arguement. Think you forgot to mention the backwards and sideways part too.

I don't think Carrick will ever be world class but he has done a good job for us down through the years. You go on about he is shown up in Europe so much for us but we still managed to get to 3 in 4 Champions League finals with Carrick playing a large part of those seasons as one of our CMs. Couldn't have been shown up that much now could he??

homerjay2005

team predictions for tonight?

very hard to know who he will rest, i just hope to god park doesnt play anyway. i would think rio will be rested assuming smalling is fit.

obviously i would like our strongest team out, but i know there will be changes so something like this please.

De gea

jones smalling evans evra
tony v carrick cleverly nani
rooney hernandez

i dont think it will be that strong though.

Giggsy11

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

He has been "wonderful" has he? Well feck me, given the time he has I could make those five yard passes vs the likes of Bolton. Do you think he has been wonderful in Europe? No. The standard in the Premier League is woeful, so he stands out. In Europe he is shown up time and time again by better quality midfielders.

I agree he has done quite well for us in the PL, however I refuse to admit that he is a quality midfielder because of how he is shown up in Europe.

Yes he has been wonderful in Europe too. Apart from against Barca, he has done well.

Can you intercept the ball like him and make yourself available for passes like he does too? Feck me, you are wasting your time on boards then. If not PL you can at least become decent championship midfielder.

Eli Manning wrote: »

It's hilarious and extremely retarded. Carrick's isn't in the top echelons of European midfielders. But he's a pretty good one and has performed well in Europe.

The comparison is Barcelona. The fact is those guys have made Ozil, Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez etc. look extremely average. Giving out about Carrick is 'cool' as a United fan.

For some reason the peope who doesn't rate Carrick because of his performance against Barca wont talk about how shit Alonso, Ozil, Diarra, Khedira were against Barca. Only Wilshere and Banega have done well when it comes to retaining possession against them (From what I have seen).

SlickRic

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

I agree with Pro.F here, ill never sing Carrick's praises after his performance vs Barca last year.

Carrick, apart from being a little caught for the 3rd goal because of a stupid Nani pass as far as i remember, was one of your only decent performers that day, along with Rooney, so that's a bit odd.

ScummyMan

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Yes he has been wonderful in Europe too. Apart from against Barca, he has done well.

Can you intercept the ball like him and make yourself available for passes like he does too? Feck me, you are wasting your time on boards then. If not PL you can at least become decent championship midfielder.

Oh really? How about against Bilbao was he wonderful then aswell? No again he was shown up by a better midfield. Bilbao are no world beaters, but they destoyed us. Dont give me nobody played well, nobody played well because we didnt keep the ball, supposedly Carricks job.

Inteceptions? Dont make me laugh, he makes maybe 1 in 5, how about the other 4 that stoll through the midfield?

Originally posted by SlickRic
Carrick, apart from being a little caught for the 3rd goal because of a stupid Nani pass as far as i remember, was one of your only decent performers that day, along with Rooney, so that's a bit odd.

Did we watch the same game? He did nothing for the whole game except hide. Was he meant to protect the defence?

Oh yes and as for doing nothing wrong, watch him closely for the first goal (around 2:00 mins). He tries and fails to make an interception, and instead of rushing to win the ball back, decides "ah fúck it, we'll just jog back, the lads will deal with it".

I could give examples all day if I wanted, but we seem to be going round in circles. I think he is not good enough for Man.United, you obviously think different.

Giggsy11

I didn't know performing poorly against Barca and to an extent Bilbao (Who was one of our better players on that day) means you are **** in Europe.

And lol about the interceptions. Good you didn't say even a traffic cone intercepts once in a while.


Edit: Anyways **** this. We are close to winning the league and Carrick is one of our best player still people are moaning about him. It will never end no matter what he does. At the end of the day he is doing his job better than anyone. One of the main reason why we are so solid defensively.

Orando Broom

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

Oh really? How about against Bilbao was he wonderful then aswell? No again he was shown up by a better midfield. Bilbao are no world beaters, but they destoyed us. Dont give me nobody played well, nobody played well because we didnt keep the ball, supposedly Carricks job.

Inteceptions? Dont make me laugh, he makes maybe 1 in 5, how about the other 4 that stoll through the midfield?





Did we watch the same game? He did nothing for the whole game except hide. Was he meant to protect the defence?

Oh yes and as for doing nothing wrong, watch him closely for the first goal (around 2:00 mins). He tries and fails to make an interception, and instead of rushing to win the ball back, decides "ah fúck it, we'll just jog back, the lads will deal with it".

I could give examples all day if I wanted, but we seem to be going round in circles. I think he is not good enough for Man.United, you obviously think different.

Neat pass to Rooney in the build up to the equaliser!

SlickRic

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

Oh yes and as for doing nothing wrong, watch him closely for the first goal (around 2:00 mins). He tries and fails to make an interception, and instead of rushing to win the ball back, decides "ah fúck it, we'll just jog back, the lads will deal with it".

I could give examples all day if I wanted, but we seem to be going round in circles. I think he is not good enough for Man.United, you obviously think different.

1. i never said he did nothing wrong. i said he was one of your decent players that day.

2. i don't know how you can blame Carrick for that first goal. Giggs, who was far worse that day, let Xavi get in behind him very easily. there is nothing Carrick could've done to get back, unless he was Usain Bolt on speed.

3. you fail to acknowledge his quick thinking for the Rooney goal. lovely bit of simple play.

4. he's good enough for Manchester United. along with Rooney and Evans, he's your most consistent performer. question marks do of course remain as to whether he can control a game at the absolute highest level, but i don't think anyone's under the illusion that he's the best in the world or anything. in terms of winning a league title, he's more than good enough. he's just a scapegoat for any midfield deficiencies. i'm no Carrick superfan, but he's more than adequate for the vast majority of games Utd have to play.

homerjay2005

carrick came on as a sub v bilbao and in the first leg, which completely stopped the bilbao onslaught. the second leg, cleverly and park were beside him, they were both awful. carrick was one of the only players to come out of those 2 games with a decent showing.

but sure, just blame it all on carrick. he had park in cm against a 3 man barca line up, one of the best midfields of all time. out numbered 3 to 1, but sure again,lets blame it all on him.

the amount of s*it that gets talked about carrick is insane. he is a vital player for us.

Giggsy11

homerjay2005 wrote: »

carrick came on as a sub v bilbao and in the first leg, which completely stopped the bilbao onslaught. the second leg, cleverly and park were beside him, they were both awful. carrick was one of the only players to come out of those 2 games with a decent showing.

but sure, just blame it all on carrick. he had park in cm against a 3 man barca line up, one of the best midfields of all time. out numbered 3 to 1, but sure again,lets blame it all on him.

the amount of s*it that gets talked about carrick is insane. he is a vital player for us.

Shame I could thank this post only once.

ScummyMan

SlickRic wrote: »

1. i never said he did nothing wrong. i said he was one of your decent players that day.

2. i don't know how you can blame Carrick for that first goal. Giggs, who was far worse that day, let Xavi get in behind him very easily. there is nothing Carrick could've done to get back, unless he was Usain Bolt on speed.

3. you fail to acknowledge his quick thinking for the Rooney goal. lovely bit of simple play.

4. he's good enough for Manchester United. along with Rooney and Evans, he's your most consistent performer. question marks do of course remain as to whether he can control a game at the absolute highest level, but i don't think anyone's under the illusion that he's the best in the world or anything. in terms of winning a league title, he's more than good enough. he's just a scapegoat for any midfield deficiencies. i'm no Carrick superfan, but he's more than adequate for the vast majority of games Utd have to play.

1. I just don't agree with this. When the sh!t hit the fan in the second half we needed a leader to control the game and get hold of the ball. He disappeared, I don't know how anyone could argue this.

2. Yes Giggs let Xavi in, but at least he made an effort to get back. Carrick couldn't be bothered. He may not have won the ball, but he would have rushed him to prehaps not making the pass to Pedro.

3. My apoligies, I had actually forgotten this. It was indeed a nice bit of play.

4. Consistant in the PREMIER LEAGUE. I think we can agree that the standard in the PL is very poor this year. When he has time to pick a pass he looks very good, he is just not good enough for the big games. Why should we have to accept someone who is "more than adequate" for most games when there are higher quality players out there?



I don't mean to insult anyone by any of this, its just my opinion. I can of course be wrong, but I'm not intentionally trolling.

Eathrin

Don't know if anyone hasn't seen this before, I just saw it now, I found it hilarious from about :35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHE6sIYob28

Pj!

Eathrin wrote: »

old vid

Did you hear Utd won the title last year?

Backstreet Moyes

What i find staggering is United are 8 points clear and look set to win the league. Then you come on here the last few days and see a poster criticising Nani and others moaning about Carrick. All this Nani is inconsistent stuff annoys me he was been our most consisntent player the last 2 years. He struggled near the end of last season after coming back from an injury but is still our best winger. Valencia is class and is flying at the moment he is limited but he is exceptional at what he does best. Nani is a better winger imo but its great too have 2 of the best wingers in the world in the team.

On Carrick i just dont understand how people can moan about him. Since we signed him we have won a few leagues and got to a few Champions League finals. Again like Valencia he is limited but is exceptional at what he does best. He shields the back 4 and breaks up attacks. He keeps it simple and doesnt try hollywood balls. When he was with Spurs he was more attacking than he is with us but Ferguson seems to have given him the job of sitting back and breaking up play. He can be decent going forward such as his goal against Q.P.R. Im not looking back who used examples of Europe this year to point out Carrick is poor. Tell me who was great in Europe this year. I dont think the league is as poor as you make out. City had a tough group and Mancini is clueless in Europe look at him wit Inter. Chelsea are in the semi's. Arsenal after turning a corner could have turning around a 4-0 deficit against Milan. We just took the group for granted and against Bilbao had a poor team out. Why not think back to last year from the last 16 on where Carrick was brilliant excluding the final but i wont hold that against him.

He was been ever present in a team that has been so succesful since he signed. He is a bit on an unsung hero does his job well but people think he is poor because he doesnt bomb forward with the ball. He is what keeps us tick and does what he is set out to do exceptionally well. Some people should realise he is not an exceptional footballer but he is exceptional at the role he is sent out to do. Yes we have not had the best central midfielders the last couple of years but Carrick has been brilliant and one of the most consistent players the last few years. People can blame a poor league, poor in Europe this season or the face he doesnt seem great going forward. He shields the defence and keeps it simple laying it off too Scholes who is better at picking out the hollywood balls. Scholes is their to retain possesion and pick out the passes. Scholes is poor defensively. Carrick is their to shield the back four and keep it simple which is what he does. Ferguson asks him to go out and do what he does best and he does this very well and is a main reason for our success the last few years. We have problems with our centre midfield but people think getting rid of Carrick is the answer need to watch games more closely and realise how important he is to the team. Thats too long for looking back at spelling mistakes so forgive me if its bad in a bit of a rush.

Pro. F

It's not just Barca that Carrick has been poor against in recent times. Newcastle, Norwich and Spurs all exposed our midfield in the last few months by pressing higher up the pitch and Carrick was hopeless. Bilboa (both legs) and Benfica he was poor against as well, but to be fair those United teams were make shift with plenty of players only in there to get games/fitness; if people don't want to consider those European games then we don't need to.

It's not just about when he has done badly that's important, it's also about what he doesn't bring to the team generally. I predicted for years that if we had another player in there who was better on the ball than Carrick to play alongside Scholes the whole team would pass it better and start to really unlock their potential. At the start of this season with Anderson and Cleverley we had two central midfielders who were good on the ball. Both are better on the ball than Carrick although neither of them are as good as Scholes (Cleverley could become so I think). The whole team passed it better and controlled possession better than had been done for years. Lots of people on here thought there had been a change in style and training methods. But it wasn't, it was only a change in personnel. The Anderson/Cleverley partnership wasn't going to work long term because neither could defend and they finally had to be broken up because of injuries anyway. And so now we are back in the same situation we have been in for years. A very good team who are capable of winning things yes, but still missing out on the real potential because of poor options in central midfield.

homerjay2005

Pro. F wrote: »

It's not just Barca that Carrick has been poor against in recent times. Newcastle, Norwich and Spurs all exposed our midfield in the last few months by pressing higher up the pitch and Carrick was hopeless. Bilboa (both legs) and Benfica he was poor against as well, but to be fair those United teams were make shift with plenty of players only in there to get games/fitness; if people don't want to consider those European games then we don't need to.

you dont have a very good memory then, carrick was excellent when he came on as a sub v bilboa, our best player on the night. we were getting absolutely shafted until he came on. benfica at home he was widely acclaimed to be our best player by many that night, a night we missed about 5 guilt edge chances and conceeded 2 goals directly down to phil jones/evra and rio mistakes. i missed benfica away, as i was on a 6 hour flight during that game and saw none of it.

newcastle away is the most exaggerated game of the season, 2 of their goals came from Tim Kruls kick outs which by passed midfield and the 3rd was from a freee kick where Ba was hauled down by Jones. its easy to blame the midfield, but the reality is that night the entire team played bad and we were caught in a dogged aerial battle with very little ball played on the ground. we had plenty of possession that night.

Spurs game they have a 5 man midfield yet we won 3-1 and apart from 2 saves, spurs created f*ck all. united had a comfotable enough game outside a sticky period in the first half.

Norwich, dont know what your talkign about here, we must have created 10 scoring oppurtunities that day and to say Norwich dominated us in CM, is baffling. funningly enough, at old trafford i though Norwich did dominate us and we were shocking bad, a game carrick didnt play in.

carrick suffers due to poor tactics and the players directly beside him. as i said in another post, park and cleverly were shocking in those games.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

It's not just Barca that Carrick has been poor against in recent times. Newcastle, Norwich and Spurs all exposed our midfield in the last few months by pressing higher up the pitch and Carrick was hopeless. Bilboa (both legs) and Benfica he was poor against as well, but to be fair those United teams were make shift with plenty of players only in there to get games/fitness; if people don't want to consider those European games then we don't need to.

It's not just about when he has done badly that's important, it's also about what he doesn't bring to the team generally. I predicted for years that if we had another player in there who was better on the ball than Carrick to play alongside Scholes the whole team would pass it better and start to really unlock their potential. At the start of this season with Anderson and Cleverley we had two central midfielders who were good on the ball. Both are better on the ball than Carrick although neither of them are as good as Scholes (Cleverley could become so I think). The whole team passed it better and controlled possession better than had been done for years. Lots of people on here thought there had been a change in style and training methods. But it wasn't, it was only a change in personnel. The Anderson/Cleverley partnership wasn't going to work long term because neither could defend and they finally had to be broken up because of injuries anyway. And so now we are back in the same situation we have been in for years. A very good team who are capable of winning things yes, but still missing out on the real potential because of poor options in central midfield.

Yes we played nice football at the start of the season. But do you remember how open we were. How many chances did Chelsea miss when we beat them early in the season. Look at us lately keeping clean sheets because Carrick is important defensively. We dont have much creativity through the middle. But since Scholes came back we are solid at the back due to Carrick. We can control possession due to Scholes. Our wingers are getting more space and better delivery from Scholes and we are a huge threat down the wings. I certainly know i am alot happier with Scholes, Carrick combo than Anderson and Cleverley combo. Look at how good we are since Carrick and Scholes have been playing together. Both fantastic at the role they are assigned too.

Mitch Connor

What pisses me off most about the constant Carrick bashing is that he is genuinely the only midfielder at the club you could honestly say with a degree of certain will still be a good player for us 2013/14.

Giggs - likely retired.
Scholes - likely retired.
Anderson - could well be sold, consistently a hole lot sh1ter than Carrick.
Cleverley - who knows, injured maybe, world class maybe.
Pogba - here, at Juve, good, great, crap, who knows?
Fletcher - possibly retired through illness.
Norwood - gone.
James - gone.
Tunnicliffe - who knows, same as Pogba to be honest, anything could happen.

But yeah, lets make sure we get rid of and replace Carrick, he is clearly the one to be getting rid of.

Al Capwned

My tuppence re: Carrick

He's not a world beater, he's not world class. What he is is a very, very effective player, he has been, without question, one of our best performers this season. I completely disagree with anyone who questions that, but that's why we are on this thread - to voice opinions and to hear others.

You can pick out any game you like, and you will find players that haven't performed - To pick out Carrick because he was poor against Barca, or even Newcastle or Norwich, is unfair on him, as he has, across the course of the season been excellent for us, and a vital part of us getting this close to winning the league.

de Gea was poor in some games, but has generally been excellent.
Some would say Valencia perhaps started slowly, but has been a revelation overall.
Evans was being written off early in the season, but has pushed himself into the running for POTY with his more recent performances.

My point is this, each players contribution should be taken over the course of the season, and for the impact he has made on the season for us - to focus on 3 or 4 games where he has been below par is unfair. Would we be where we are in the league if Carrick hadn't played at all - No where near in my opinion.

As regards Carrick in Europe, Carrick played 11 of the 13 games in Europe last season, in which we were only beaten by the best club team there has ever been, who possibly have the best midfield trio we'll ever see - no shame in that. At all...

He's a fine footballer, and has been absolutely vital for us this season.

Pro. F

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you dont have a very good memory then, carrick was excellent when he came on as a sub v bilboa, our best player on the night. we were getting absolutely shafted until he came on.

He was not excellent. Bilboa were fading at that stage and he did a better job than Jones had been doing. He still failed to get the team properly into the game and Bilboa were still very comfortable. None of that qualifies as excellent.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

benfica at home he was widely acclaimed to be our best player by many that night, a night we missed about 5 guilt edge chances and conceeded 2 goals directly down to phil jones/evra and rio mistakes. i missed benfica away, as i was on a 6 hour flight during that game and saw none of it.

I don't care if he was widely proclaimed by many to have had an excellent game. The wider footballing public and commentators don't have a clue. He did not have and excellent game, he was poor.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

newcastle away is the most exaggerated game of the season, 2 of their goals came from Tim Kruls kick outs which by passed midfield and the 3rd was from a freee kick where Ba was hauled down by Jones. its easy to blame the midfield, but the reality is that night the entire team played bad and we were caught in a dogged aerial battle with very little ball played on the ground. we had plenty of possession that night.

I explained what I was talking about the last time you brought this up but you never acknowledged that and now here we are again.

Newcastle attacked using long balls. Jones had a poor game and so we failed to defend that properly. That is a separate issue and the goals conceded is not what I am criticising Carrick for. When we had possession Newcastle defended by pressing high up the pitch. Our central midfield couldn't cope with that. Carrick was next to useless as he always is in those situations. We were very poor in possession that night and to describe it differently is nonsense. The reason we were poor was because our central midfield couldn't cope with being squeezed like that.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Spurs game they have a 5 man midfield yet we won 3-1 and apart from 2 saves, spurs created f*ck all. united had a comfotable enough game outside a sticky period in the first half.

Spurs played a 442 with Saha and Adebayor up front. (Even if they had played a 451 it wouldn't change anything, our formation with Rooney behind the striker is as close to a 451 as makes no difference.) Having two centre forwards and nobody in there like VDV really blunted their attack. But their pressing high up the pitch really messed up our midfield again and our two first goals came completely against the run of play.
To try and make out that that game was anything other than very hard is wrong.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Norwich, dont know what your talkign about here, we must have created 10 scoring oppurtunities that day and to say Norwich dominated us in CM, is baffling.

Norwich gave us an extremely hard time of it until late on after their goal when they started to sit deeper. We struggled in possession big time in that game.

Nuts102 wrote: »

Yes we played nice football at the start of the season. But do you remember how open we were. How many chances did Chelsea miss when we beat them early in the season. Look at us lately keeping clean sheets because Carrick is important defensively. We dont have much creativity through the middle. But since Scholes came back we are solid at the back due to Carrick. We can control possession due to Scholes. Our wingers are getting more space and better delivery from Scholes and we are a huge threat down the wings. I certainly know i am alot happier with Scholes, Carrick combo than Anderson and Cleverley combo. Look at how good we are since Carrick and Scholes have been playing together. Both fantastic at the role they are assigned too.

Yes I remember how open we were. I specifically mentioned that in my post. I'm not saying we should play some CM beside Scholes (or Cleverley or Giggs) that is only good on the ball. I am saying that we should play one who is good at defending like Carrick is but better on the ball than Carrick. Both CMs, the defensive and the more creative one, need a minimum standard of ability at controlling the ball. When we have that standard in both CMs, like we had at the start of the season, we pass and use the ball much better. We just need to find a CM who can defend and who has at least that minimum standard of skill on the ball required for the position.

Nalz

You're very passionate about this Pro. F!