Phil Hogan

Yamanoto

mfitzy wrote: »

No Sully it's far more fashionable to attack politicians and jump onto the pichfork brigade.

If members of the Oireachtas demonstrated a genuine will to overhaul an overly-generous and infuriatingly opaque system of perks, allowances and preferential tax arrangements from which they (and their families) benefit enormously, perhaps they'd meet with less cynicism and hostility from the angry mob, whose money it is they're spending.

I've no beef with Phil Hogan with regard to his trip to Qatar btw.

foxcoverteddy

No one is putting our phil in the firing line, however as the main government minister on the property tax, which is important both to the voter's and government alike, we should demand he was present to answer/deal with problems etc as they arise.
To say he was in constant contact with his department is an insult to the voters of the republic, we as those who these people are supposed to represent and pay their salaries and expenses do not have the right to swan off at such a critical time.
If one is going to stress the importance of the UN meeting then we should have moved the budget, as it was leaked all over the place it mattered not what day it was announced.
Perhaps Mr Kenny does not have full control of his ministers, as long as our phil enjoyed himself, at our expense that is all that matters.
We really have no beef and as such should shut up and wish all of our politicians a Merry Christmas.

catbear

Leaks have been sanctioned by the public for years, if the electorate was pissed off about leaks there would have been prosecutions years ago.
Meetings abroad happen all the time, either at european and international level, the media knows that stirring outrage sells copy, logic and reason don't sell papers.
If Ireland had been the lender to another country and that country said it wasn't going to pay what it owed us because it was our fault for lending to them in the first place then I'd imagine Foxy you'd be very pissed off.
The internet is fun for sh1ts and giggles but ultimately if you really want to effect change you'll have to lead.

road_high

catbear wrote: »

Leaks have been sanctioned by the public for years, if the electorate was pissed off about leaks there would have been prosecutions years ago.
Meetings abroad happen all the time, either at european and international level, the media knows that stirring outrage sells copy, logic and reason don't sell papers.
If Ireland had been the lender to another country and that country said it wasn't going to pay what it owed us because it was our fault for lending to them in the first place then I'd imagine Foxy you'd be very pissed off.
The internet is fun for sh1ts and giggles but ultimately if you really want to effect change you'll have to lead.

Absolutely. Nobody was complaining when Bertie et al were pouring petrol on the fire and bringing our welfare rates to the highest in the OECD. And they remain here thanks to Labour and their croonies in government.
I wish FG would bring the deficit down far quicker and cut the sh!te off welfare rates for those on the welfare gravy train say for over 2/3 years. It's not popular but it is what needs to be done. The state cannot be expected to support people indefinitely.

foxcoverteddy

Mfitzy unfortunate as it is, the honest answer is we will be supporting those on welfare, you see the great problem isd there are those who need our support, genuine cases and there are those who don't and are far from genuine.
So how do you sort that one out, seriously, one might say absent fathers should be made to contribute to the childs upkeep, but that can be expensive for the state to make them pay, where do we go.
I know people with disability permits who are no more disabled than you or I, that is presumption on my part.
It is true what Catbear say's, we need to lead, perhaps our phil is unlucky that we picked on him, but it seems he leaves his self wide open for all the rubbish around him
I say it time and time again Catbear speaks such common sense that we need people like him to stand up and say what is what, and we would need to give him total support.
I have no idea who he is, it matters not I have great respect for his opinions and I will say as i said to you Mfitzy, Merry Christmas

catbear

OK Foxy, I'll break it down for you. For a nations government to be expected to act responsibly it requires its electorate to vote for responsible government. Now if the majority are financially illiterate then it ain't going to happen.

If eight children and two adults are in a room with a bunch of fireworks and a box of matches and they're asked what should they do with them, then democratically it's highly probable that the adults will get overruled by the children. The fireworks will be lit in the room and everyone suffers.

Now take that example and apply it to Ireland substituting easy credit for fireworks, the kids got their hands burned and now they want to blame the adults for not stopping them!

Now why would I want to put myself up for election in a nation that from what I've experienced during the bubble doesn't understand that a deal is a deal, debts have to be honoured and forgiveness means nothing without penance.

I am convinced that if this nation was forgiven of its debts, it's creditors taking all the responsibility, ireland would repeat the property bubble. Bashing Hogan is cheap. Replace him and you still have the same problem.

tayto lover

catbear wrote: »

OK Foxy, I'll break it down for you. For a nations government to be expected to act responsibly it requires its electorate to vote for responsible government. Now if the majority are financially illiterate then it ain't going to happen.

If eight children and two adults are in a room with a bunch of fireworks and a box of matches and they're asked what should they do with them, then democratically it's highly probable that the adults will get overruled by the children. The fireworks will be lit in the room and everyone suffers.

Now take that example and apply it to Ireland substituting easy credit for fireworks, the kids got their hands burned and now they want to blame the adults for not stopping them!

Now why would I want to put myself up for election in a nation that from what I've experienced during the bubble doesn't understand that a deal is a deal, debts have to be honoured and forgiveness means nothing without penance.

I am convinced that if this nation was forgiven of its debts, it's creditors taking all the responsibility, ireland would repeat the property bubble. Bashing Hogan is cheap. Replace him and you still have the same problem.

Hogan is a fool. He has a history of being a fool and is an awful person to have as a representative abroad. A pure disgrace.

Sully

tayto lover wrote: »

Hogan is a fool. He has a history of being a fool and is an awful person to have as a representative abroad. A pure disgrace.

Their point still stands tho.

catbear

tayto lover wrote: »

Hogan is a fool. He has a history of being a fool and is an awful person to have as a representative abroad. A pure disgrace.

When you vote is it for style over substance?

foxcoverteddy

Are there not two sides to this post, one is the man the other the implementation of the household charge, perhaps there are three, the way the press view him.
It is true that good news does not sell newspaper's, it never did, disasters and not necessarily 100% true scandals, do. Equally people holding top positions in government, or perceived high social standing are naturally easy targets.
Such people walk a tightrope, when they slip or falter their reputation is in tatters, they seldom ever achieve such heights again.
One has only to take the late Mr Saville, a man held in high esteem in many quarters, now his memory has been removed from as much as is possible.
One might say some of our ex politicians are tainted, as a result of their own stupidity.
Where does this leave our Phil, well the combination of mixing with someone in Mount Juliet and how the household charge was implemented put him up for being incapable of holding such high position.
He is no fool in the general sense, he is shrewd and calculating, he has to be as the instigator of the soon to be implemented property tax, he was absent from the budget debate and so it is said a few cabinet meetings as well.
Equally no one objects to an employee having a drink or two when away from home, unfortunately for phil he dropped his guard, the press picture said something not sure what, but it construed we were paying for more than we should.
The household charge, you cannot expect to collect money on the basis of what was levelled at the people of Ireland, it was a cock up from the start and still is.
The property tax looks like being the same fiasco, here we part company I guess as I support such a tax, the country needs it, our finances need it badly. However it appears there are many who will be able to dodge payment, ghost estates, houses with pyrite, newly acquired housing i.e. first time buyers, council tenants, private renting, no mention of those with green doors.
Why such exemptions? so those who perhaps have been prudent are paying for those who have not, not everyone who is buying or has bought property is loaded, for some owning their own home is a continous struggle, what is our phil doing for them, yes probably fcuk all.
Where is phil's boss the erstwhile Mr Kenny, he allowed phil free range by the looks of things, why is perhaps phils original advisor still advising?
Merry Christmas to all.

Bards

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Are there not two sides to this post, one is the man the other the implementation of the household charge, perhaps there are three, the way the press view him.
It is true that good news does not sell newspaper's, it never did, disasters and not necessarily 100% true scandals, do. Equally people holding top positions in government, or perceived high social standing are naturally easy targets.
Such people walk a tightrope, when they slip or falter their reputation is in tatters, they seldom ever achieve such heights again.
One has only to take the late Mr Saville, a man held in high esteem in many quarters, now his memory has been removed from as much as is possible.
One might say some of our ex politicians are tainted, as a result of their own stupidity.
Where does this leave our Phil, well the combination of mixing with someone in Mount Juliet and how the household charge was implemented put him up for being incapable of holding such high position.
He is no fool in the general sense, he is shrewd and calculating, he has to be as the instigator of the soon to be implemented property tax, he was absent from the budget debate and so it is said a few cabinet meetings as well.
Equally no one objects to an employee having a drink or two when away from home, unfortunately for phil he dropped his guard, the press picture said something not sure what, but it construed we were paying for more than we should.
The household charge, you cannot expect to collect money on the basis of what was levelled at the people of Ireland, it was a cock up from the start and still is.
The property tax looks like being the same fiasco, here we part company I guess as I support such a tax, the country needs it, our finances need it badly. However it appears there are many who will be able to dodge payment, ghost estates, houses with pyrite, newly acquired housing i.e. first time buyers, council tenants, private renting, no mention of those with green doors.
Why such exemptions? so those who perhaps have been prudent are paying for those who have not, not everyone who is buying or has bought property is loaded, for some owning their own home is a continous struggle, what is our phil doing for them, yes probably fcuk all.
Where is phil's boss the erstwhile Mr Kenny, he allowed phil free range by the looks of things, why is perhaps phils original advisor still advising?
Merry Christmas to all.

But does the country need it, there are a ot of other options that have not been explored.

Putting a max salary of anyone in the public sector to say €80,000 would be a start.

Average employ in public sector should earn no more than €40,000. That includes Semi states like ESB, which would allow electricity and Gas prices to fall substantially, and they should not be allowed to make a profit of the backs of consumers.

If they dont like that salary, they can always move jobs to the privtae sector for perceived higher incomes, not that the grass is greener there either

With utility prices falling they would have a means to cut social welfare allowances too thus bringing down the cost of running the country substantially on a day-to-dy basis

....and if they cant run the county for xxx billions, the should invite someone in who can, and not raise an extra cent of revenue until ALL other avenues has been explored

Scallion 'ater

Bards wrote: »

But does the country need it, there are a ot of other options that have not been explored.

Putting a max salary of anyone in the public sector to say €80,000 would be a start.

Average employ in public sector should earn no more than €40,000. .............

If they dont like that salary, they can always move jobs to the privtae sector for perceived higher incomes, not that the grass is greener there either

Not every public sector job has a private sector equivalent you know, in fact most don't.

Hillmanhunter1

I live in Doha.

While he was in town I met with the Minister at an event organised by the Irish Qatar Business Council.

It seemed to me, and to the others that I spoke to, that the Minister put in a few very full days visiting various ministries and government departments, trying to advance the interests of Irish companies. These Irish companies are vying (and competing with companies from countries that have closer political and military ties with Qatar) for some of the $140 billion that will be spent on infrastructure contracts between now and the 2022 World Cup.

A country that has so many construction professionals out of work should be happy that a Minister makes himself available in this way, and his input was much appreciated by the companies that he helped - having a Government Minister speak on your behalf opens doors in this part of the world.

I assume he also went to the conference, but to be honest I don't care if he did or not, the most important thing he had to do was to represent Irish business in a country that is booming. The Government should do more and establish an Embassy here, there is a growing population of Irish people and the business opportunities are far greater than in some of the dead ends where we maintain a presence. The Ambassador in Abu Dhabi also covers Qatar, and he does trojan work, however an non-resident Ambassador doesn't impress the locals - and that matters.

Finally, as for the five star hotel, anyone who knows Qatar will tell you they simply don't do four star, and the Kempinski, while a nice hotel, is far from being the swankiest in Doha.

DerryRed

catbear wrote: »

OK Foxy, I'll break it down for you. For a nations government to be expected to act responsibly it requires its electorate to vote for responsible government. Now if the majority are financially illiterate then it ain't going to happen.

If eight children and two adults are in a room with a bunch of fireworks and a box of matches and they're asked what should they do with them, then democratically it's highly probable that the adults will get overruled by the children. The fireworks will be lit in the room and everyone suffers.

Now take that example and apply it to Ireland substituting easy credit for fireworks, the kids got their hands burned and now they want to blame the adults for not stopping them!

Now why would I want to put myself up for election in a nation that from what I've experienced during the bubble doesn't understand that a deal is a deal, debts have to be honoured and forgiveness means nothing without penance.

I am convinced that if this nation was forgiven of its debts, it's creditors taking all the responsibility, ireland would repeat the property bubble. Bashing Hogan is cheap. Replace him and you still have the same problem.

Nice analogy Catbear, however I'd hazard to say that there are a lot of people impacted by the cuts who weren't even in the room. Yes lots and lots of people got run away with access to easy credit, but equally there were lots of people who were prudent and watched their money and are now having to share the punishment for others' mistakes.

road_high

DerryRed wrote: »

Nice analogy Catbear, however I'd hazard to say that there are a lot of people impacted by the cuts who weren't even in the room. Yes lots and lots of people got run away with access to easy credit, but equally there were lots of people who were prudent and watched their money and are now having to share the punishment for others' mistakes.

I would point out welfare rates and services increased exponentially during this time as well which benefitted people across the board.
Read today somwhere the State is borrowing €1.75 million per hour just to keep the show on the road. This cannot go on and there must be cuts right across all areas of govt spending.

catbear

mfitzy wrote: »

I would point out welfare rates and services increased exponentially during this time as well which benefitted people across the board.
Read today somwhere the State is borrowing €1.75 million per hour just to keep the show on the road. This cannot go on and there must be cuts right across all areas of govt spending.

You'd think they're going for broke on purpose!

comeraghs

I wonder could Phil pull a few strings and get some international company to set up in the Ferrybank Shopping centre?

road_high

catbear wrote: »

You'd think they're going for broke on purpose!

Well that's happened a long time ago!

catbear

mfitzy wrote: »

Well that's happened a long time ago!

Yes, that time we assumed private debt of bust banks, this time it's with the bailout fund. Are they trying to force a greek style write down rather than wind down the bust banks?

Scallion 'ater

mfitzy wrote: »

I would point out welfare rates and services increased exponentially during this time as well which benefitted people across the board.
Read today somwhere the State is borrowing €1.75 million per hour just to keep the show on the road. This cannot go on and there must be cuts right across all areas of govt spending.

When you put it like that the figure is very stark. However in my view we cannot throw the baby out in a desperate attempt to remove the deficit overnight. We cannot take more cuts and we need a deal to allow us to repay the borrowings over a much longer term (e.g. Germany post WWII) thereby allowing us to reduce the deficit over the medium term through econonic growth rather than cuts.

If we try to remove the deficit overnight, or very soon, as I think you are advocating we could strangle the small bit of commerce that is surviving and turn us into a third world country. Cuts across all areas means increased crime, fewer Guards, less business supports and incentives and less money in circulation etc etc.

A local example of the impact of futher cuts might be as follows - If there are any further cuts to Army numbers, say another 1,000 cut from current 9,500 strength, then that means another barracks has to close somewhere. Where will that be? Looking at the list of existing barracks it would certainly be Kilkenny barracks that will get the chop, regardless of Phil Hogan. That would result in a loss of an awful lot of pay cheques and trade in this locality and would leave a barracks site on the edge of town that would fall into ruin very quickly as rats and junkies take it over (as is the case elsewhere). This illustrates why I am against any further cuts, certainly across the board cuts at any rate.

flutered

mfitzy wrote: »

I would point out welfare rates and services increased exponentially during this time as well which benefitted people across the board.
Read today somwhere the State is borrowing €1.75 million per hour just to keep the show on the road. This cannot go on and there must be cuts right across all areas of govt spending.

very nice of you to pick on welfare, why not quote officials below county manager grade who are earning more than prime ministers in other countrys, or libarians who are in the same position, welfare covers a large area, not only people who are unemployed.

road_high

flutered wrote: »

very nice of you to pick on welfare, why not quote officials below county manager grade who are earning more than prime ministers in other countrys, or libarians who are in the same position, welfare covers a large area, not only people who are unemployed.

Because it's a €20 BILLION expenditure. It's a welfare state we cannot afford and it really needs to be time limited. I've mentioned the others many times in other threads.

flutered

i agree with you on both answers, why are the disabled the first to be picked on, the way they are being treated is inhuman, then come next summer some will be expected to pay the household charge, where do the powers that be expect them to get that money.

flutered

all welfare payments should not be lumped togeather, the payments to the various types of recipents should be transparent to the public, how many different types of payments are welfare responsible for, break it down, give each type of payment a hit in the budget, health boards spend more on welfare than the carers and their disabled clients, yet there is no mention of this, come on op treat people equally.

catbear

I accept your general sentiment fluttered but there is a problem when welfare payments are treated as entitlements. We're all only entitled to what we can collectively afford. I was on the dole for a period during the property bubble and I lived very well on it.

In fact when I returned to work I limited my weekly budget to what I had been getting on welfare, anything above it went to savings. I managed to have two foreign holidays a year, eat out a few times a week, run an average secondhand car and pay rent, all on the dole rate. That was an indulgent lifestyle and I could afford it on a dole rate. I did sometimes wonder why I bothered working at all during the bubble era.

I was always bemused by benchmarking, if public sector workers wanted private sector conditions then they should have moved sectors. Now we have public sector workers getting private sector wage rates from the bubble era, the private sector being a diminished shadow of its former self and the only option now is increasing tax on all pay to pay high pay.

Theoretically public sector paid less in return for security, in Irelands case some people don't seem to understand why they can't have high pay too. Then again some people confuse a national debt for a magic money tree.

Basically what I'm getting at fluttered is that our priorities as to who is vulnerable are ambiguous. Are property speculators worthy of sympathy? If property debts are impoverishing individuals then as a caring society we should be seeking private bankruptcy reform rather than unsustainable wages that only add to public debt which can only be funded by increasing taxes.

Anytime I suggested this in the past I get accused of wanting people to be made homeless. When I ask what's wrong with renting I'm accused of being a traitor. I gave up trying to talk sense in such an emotionally reactive society, thankfully the internet allows room for dispassionate debate.

Plus

flutered

cat bear, i agree with all your points, may i ask do you have kids, as kids are the one thing that really hoovers up money, they are even better at it than the gov. after work hours take a look at any goverment office or school, observe the way the people leaving are dressed, they definatley are not of your chain of thought, add to that, the car that you ran was not of the top of the range.

foxcoverteddy

I thought, rightly or wrongly we should put away the axe for the festive season and wish our TD, not a merry Christmas as such but one that the homeless and the poor will have and the invalides and the carer's.
I expect the man who cannot be mentioned will have a wonderful time no doubt out in Portugal or some other delightful spot, or at home indulging himself on the best of everything that a TD's money can buy.
What was the guy's name in Harry Potter, Voldemort, a real bad one.
To everyone else the season's greetings. Foxy

foxcoverteddy

poor old phil is taking yet another beating with the Reilly chappie over the A&E at Lukes. I know a lot of people are taking the moral high ground and saying we should not go down the road of special grants.
For once i will stick with phil, we need a new A&E, how he has got it I don't care, politics is a dirty game, here and almost everywhere else.
We have TD's on the knock taking us for every penny they can lay their grubby little hands on, but not our Phil, fair play to him.
It is nice to be wrong sometimes and to admit it, we had better spend the money on the high st before someone tries to claw that back.
So good on yer our phil

foxcoverteddy

I read that our Phil has been calling reporters names, please Phil refrain from such silliness we need you, you are giving endas a chance to pack your bags.
Play your cards right and we could have a statue of our Phil on the Mayors Walk.

foxcoverteddy

Phil Hogan, has he on his own decided to do away with coffins or is ita government idea? Surely if these foreign chappies want to do it their way what will come next?
Apparently coffins are made in China these days but it must be a nail for Irish coffin makers, or are they being screwed as well.
Phil has kept his head down for a while now.