Why can I not get job share?

Quirkygirl

Folks I'm a teacher...... Take it easy now. I have children and I want to be able to teach and be a parent too. However principal won't give job shares. Why is there not a better system in place? Surely it makes sense that I would work more productively if I had a better work life balance? And someone else could be employed too? So I'm happier and another person has a job? Any advice? Quit?

byhookorbycrook

Primary or secondary?

Quirkygirl

Secondary- teaching English and religion and cspe sorry

implausible

What do you mean by the principal not giving jobshares? He is obliged to consider reasonable requests for one. Your union will have more information on the procedure.

Your subjects, however, are problematic - I have English too which would be difficult to timetable around (as jobsharers are one of the first people to be put into the timetable), but a request should be considered. Do you know of any other English teachers who would be willing to do the other half? Knowing someone like that would be an advantage.

Are you in the voluntary or VEC sector? The deadline to apply for next year has already passed in my VEC, so that's another thing to consider.

Quirkygirl

Thanks for reply, I'm also in Vec sector and yes it's passed, I think 1st march was our deadline. The principal is a bit finicky and has said job shares may be given but the only way is 5 half days, which would be good but I live 50 km away from school so doing same journey 5 days for half salary. And then with extra 33 hours these are happening from 5-7pm so it's prob not worth it. I wonder if principals are agreeable if you approach with another teacher of similar subjects willing to share?

rainbowtrout

Do you want to job share and only work a few days a week or are you willing to work all five days on the reduced hours?

Like others said here English will prove a problem as its usually timetabled across the week. However you could be timetabled for religion and CSPE only if there was enough hours for it and have your time more easily blocked as they wouldn't be timetabled for any class every day of the week.

The principal is not obliged to give you a job share but you should request it in writing and expect an answer in writing, you should also put your case to the board of management.

Quirkygirl

Thanks for reply, I suppose given the commute I'd prefer to only work 3 days max, but principal wants all teachers in 5 mornings regardless. Even if job-sharing teachers have no classes on Wednesday for example they still need to
Be present. Thanks for all advice

solerina

in my school anyone who job shares usually does 4 days, there was one instance where someone did only 3 but that was because she only taught CSPE. The people on 4 days find it great if they live near by, but a disaster if they dont. One person tried it for a year and found that she wa in school almost all day for the 4 days she was in, so she felt that she didnt gain at all and wen back to full time hours. The cost of driving over 50km every day was an issue for her too....

rainbowtrout

Quirkygirl wrote: »

Thanks for reply, I suppose given the commute I'd prefer to only work 3 days max, but principal wants all teachers in 5 mornings regardless. Even if job-sharing teachers have no classes on Wednesday for example they still need to
Be present. Thanks for all advice

That's just being awkward, why should you need to be there if you are not teaching. It's a pathetic excuse really.

Quirkygirl

thanks for all the replies, I think Its prob a non runner myself, my principal is quite fixed on a 5 half day thing. Which really wouldn't suit me but of course, if I lived nearer it would be great. Maybe as a previous poster said I could put it all in writing with a solution eg. If I found another teacher willing and able to job share then it might work. But don't see them making individual arrangements as then that would open floodgates for others. Unfortunately I think the school simply doesn't want people job sharing as it does create a little extra work initially. It's a real pity because it will cause me to move schools long term. Thanks everyone.

seavill

Quirkygirl wrote: »

thanks for all the replies, I think Its prob a non runner myself, my principal is quite fixed on a 5 half day thing. Which really wouldn't suit me but of course, if I lived nearer it would be great. Maybe as a previous poster said I could put it all in writing with a solution eg. If I found another teacher willing and able to job share then it might work. But don't see them making individual arrangements as then that would open floodgates for others. Unfortunately I think the school simply doesn't want people job sharing as it does create a little extra work initially. It's a real pity because it will cause me to move schools long term. Thanks everyone.

I know of numerous schools around me that have reduced if not removed job shares for next year, a lot of teachers who have been on them for years have been rejected this year. I would imagine it is a way of reducing teacher numbers but that is just my opinion and nothing to back it up.

Also there is a big different between your principal won't give you a job share and your principal will give you a job share but seen as its not on your terms you are not interested.
(I do realise the predicament you are in with travelling, however the principal has how many teachers and students to consider, and not just do what suits you)

implausible

This thread has reminded me of a query I heard at a meeting recently about the possibility of taking parental leave. Apparently, there is no precedent for it, but I'd be interested in hearing if anyone knows of a teacher who managed to get parental leave of one day a week.

Op, have you considered a career break? If you have a partner who is employed, the tax implications can take the sting out of it. A colleague of mine (practical teacher - much easier to work a timetable around) took one year of this and followed with a year of job-sharing when her 3 kids were very young.

Quirkygirl

I take your point seavill thanks

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

This thread has reminded me of a query I heard at a meeting recently about the possibility of taking parental leave. Apparently, there is no precedent for it, but I'd be interested in hearing if anyone knows of a teacher who managed to get parental leave of one day a week.

Op, have you considered a career break? If you have a partner who is employed, the tax implications can take the sting out of it. A colleague of mine (practical teacher - much easier to work a timetable around) took one year of this and followed with a year of job-sharing when her 3 kids were very young.

I don't think it works that way with parental leave for teachers simply because of the nature of teaching.

A friend of mine was on parental leave for the first half of this school year. She went onto it straight after maternity leave. She has her hours in two different centres so did look into the possibility of the parental leave being applied to one centre, which would be easier subbing wise and much the same situation as you are suggesting. She was told that she could only take it in blocks. I can't remember how much parental leave there is but it is split into blocks of say 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 8 weeks etc, that you can take back to back or you can take a block or two and return to work and then take some more at another stage.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

I know of numerous schools around me that have reduced if not removed job shares for next year, a lot of teachers who have been on them for years have been rejected this year. I would imagine it is a way of reducing teacher numbers but that is just my opinion and nothing to back it up.

Also there is a big different between your principal won't give you a job share and your principal will give you a job share but seen as its not on your terms you are not interested.
(I do realise the predicament you are in with travelling, however the principal has how many teachers and students to consider, and not just do what suits you)

That's a fair point, but it's unreasonable of a principal to expect a teacher to be in every morning whether they have classes or not. It defeats the purpose of job share if the teacher has to be on the premises all the time if they are only on half hours, they may as well be on full hours.

Quirkygirl

Actually I did think of that as a short term solution for the coming year- parental leave is 14 weeks for each child so it can be taken as a block running to 28 weeks so basically being due back for last school term which I suppose is not too bad. I think though it is s pity that employers in general are not more family friendly in the way they think about work. and as I originally said to help create a good work life balance. Thanks

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's a fair point, but it's unreasonable of a principal to expect a teacher to be in every morning whether they have classes or not. It defeats the purpose of job share if the teacher has to be on the premises all the time if they are only on half hours, they may as well be on full hours.

Absolutely agree very unfair to expect that. As you said completely defeats the purpose. Also someone mentioned a teacher ended up being there most of the day on a half day.
Although it cannot be done to suit every individual as I mentioned previously I do agree that the principal in this case is being very unfair and almost making it up as he goes along. I would say you would struggle to find any school where that is imposed.
I would try the route of finding someone that is willing and approach the board with that suggestion. It gives them one less excuse to have

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

Absolutely agree very unfair to expect that. As you said completely defeats the purpose. Also someone mentioned a teacher ended up being there most of the day on a half day.
Although it cannot be done to suit every individual as I mentioned previously I do agree that the principal in this case is being very unfair and almost making it up as he goes along. I would say you would struggle to find any school where that is imposed.
I would try the route of finding someone that is willing and approach the board with that suggestion. It gives them one less excuse to have

That's the great thing about job share, you don't actually have to share the job with anyone currently in the school. You can job share on your own, you are reduced to 11 hours and the school can hire someone for the other 11 or dish them out between existing staff. So aside from timetabling the 11 hours for the job share teacher, the principal has great flexibility in what they do with the remaining hours.

Two teachers applied for job share in my school this year, one was told yes and the other told no. The one that was refused is already working between two centres and only does three days with us, so it would have left it very easy to split her job, was told her hours couldn't be timetabled for three days when they are already doing just that:rolleyes:

rainbowtrout

Quirkygirl wrote: »

Actually I did think of that as a short term solution for the coming year- parental leave is 14 weeks for each child so it can be taken as a block running to 28 weeks so basically being due back for last school term which I suppose is not too bad. I think though it is s pity that employers in general are not more family friendly in the way they think about work. and as I originally said to help create a good work life balance. Thanks

Actually you should really consider the parental leave. If you go on job share you get paid for 11 hours for 52 weeks of the year.

If you take parental leave for say 17 weeks (roughly half the school year), you will still only work half the hours in the school year (17 weeks no pay, 17 weeks full pay) so would come out with the same pay for the school year, but would be getting full pay for your holidays so overall would come out better off financially. Also depending on the way you time the blocks of parental leave you could still get paid for Easter holidays/ Christmas depending on what times you take them.

Might be worth considering. Also you won't have to go through the principal for parental leave.

RH149

Five half days would be a dream job share in our school! If you're lucky you get a couple of half days at most but would always be in five days....it's the luck of the draw how spread out your hours are on those five days.
It really should be standardised across all schools.

Boober Fraggle

AFAIK, you can not take more than 14 weeks parental leave in one year, unless you have twins, so the 28 weeks wouldn't be an option.

ccazza

I know that teachers in my school have taken the whole year off on parental leave so it must be possible to take the year off this way.

solerina

Quirkygirl wrote: »

Actually I did think of that as a short term solution for the coming year- parental leave is 14 weeks for each child so it can be taken as a block running to 28 weeks so basically being due back for last school term which I suppose is not too bad. I think though it is s pity that employers in general are not more family friendly in the way they think about work. and as I originally said to help create a good work life balance. Thanks

A friend of mine did this last year, she checked into it with the union who advised her to take the leave in blocks...ie up to October mid term, end of block 1, begin again start of new term....basically this allowed her to get paid for the week of mid term. She did this again for Christmas etc. I am not sure but there is some way the blocks must be takn though so it didnt work out perfectly, but it was possible to get paid for some holiday weeks

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

A friend of mine did this last year, she checked into it with the union who advised her to take the leave in blocks...ie up to October mid term, end of block 1, begin again start of new term....basically this allowed her to get paid for the week of mid term. She did this again for Christmas etc. I am not sure but there is some way the blocks must be takn though so it didnt work out perfectly, but it was possible to get paid for some holiday weeks

Ya the blocks are of different lengths. A friend of mine was due back to work around the 8th of December and she had a 2 week and a 4 week left. She was going to take the four week and then the two but that would have run through Christmas and brought her back mid January and she wouldn't have been paid for the holidays.

When she rang the Dept whoever she got through to was very nice and advised her to take the two week block which brought her back to school the day before Christmas, when the Christmas tests were going on in our place, get paid for the holidays and take her four week in January.

rainbowtrout

From TUI website:

Parental Leave/Force Majeure Leave
Parental leave was extended to natural parents of children up to the age of 8 and adoptive parents of children under CL PPT01/04 Each parent will be entitled to a total of 14 weeks unpaid leave for each child. Six weeks advance notice must be given. At second level, parental leave can only be taken as one continuous period of 14 weeks or two separate periods of seven weeks or in a maximum of three separate periods with one of the periods being a minimum of two weeks and a second being a minimum of four weeks.

Quirkygirl

I think the parental leave might be suitable for me, I would take it from start of school to midterm and then from start if nov term to Xmas but that's the 14 weeks gone, a friend told me about someone who took it till the last term of the year and she had two kids so we must be able to take 14 weeks for each child???

rainbowtrout

The ASTI website is far more comprehensive:


http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/leave/parental-leave/


But it would seem that you are not allowed to take more than 14 weeks in one school year without the consent of the managerial authority. So if your VEC agreed to back to back leaves then there shouldn't be a problem.

You could realistically take the 8 week stint up to Halloween, get paid for the midterm break, and then take the 2 and 4 week back to back between Halloween and Christmas.

queensinead

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's a fair point, but it's unreasonable of a principal to expect a teacher to be in every morning whether they have classes or not. It defeats the purpose of job share if the teacher has to be on the premises all the time if they are only on half hours, they may as well be on full hours.

Unfortunately job-sharing at Second Level is a very flawed concept. Many teachers are not "sharing" at all. Their hours are just reduced, with other teachers working around them as best they can..

The timetable is a complex document and is really there to serve the needs of the students first, to make sure that they have a proper spread of subjects throughout the week, that all their French is not crammed into two days, or whatever.

If the Principal prioritises the students and their choices, it is hard for him to also prioritise the job sharer, and that is why job sharing secondary teacher often end up with a class at 9 am and no other class until 2 pm, and so on.

Plus, the non-job sharing teachers get fed up having a lop-sided timetable--full teaching day with no breaks, say, or every afternoon full--just so the job sharer can be facilitated

It is the school subjects that create the problem. Primary teachers can have a week on and a week off, or a two-and-a-half day week. That is impossible to organise at Second Level.

rainbowtrout

queensinead wrote: »

Unfortunately job-sharing at Second Level is a very flawed concept. Many teachers are not "sharing" at all. Their hours are just reduced, with other teachers working around them as best they can..

The timetable is a complex document and is really there to serve the needs of the students first, to make sure that they have a proper spread of subjects throughout the week, that all their French is not crammed into two days, or whatever.

If the Principal prioritises the students and their choices, it is hard for him to also prioritise the job sharer, and that is why job sharing secondary teacher often end up with a class at 9 am and no other class until 2 pm, and so on.

Plus, the non-job sharing teachers get fed up having a lop-sided timetable--full teaching day with no breaks, say, or every afternoon full--just so the job sharer can be facilitated

It is the school subjects that create the problem. Primary teachers can have a week on and a week off, or a two-and-a-half day week. That is impossible to organise at Second Level.

I understand all that. That's not what I was referring to. The OP who wants a job share is in a school where the principal expects all teachers to be on the premises all day long from 9am regardless of what hours are on their timetable. That does defeat the purpose of job share. If you have to be in from 9-4 you may as well be on 22 hours as be on 11.

solerina

Quirkygirl wrote: »

so we must be able to take 14 weeks for each child???

Yes, its 14 weeks per child up to the age of 8