Electric Car Charge Points

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I right in reading that the Leaf takes over SEVEN hours to charge from an ESB point ?

From 0% yes, But it can be charged from a 50kw DC charger in 30 mins.

Really though you are never going to allow your Leaf to reach 0 and will be at a charger long before this, so if using a fast charger I would imagine 15-20 mins would give you enough range to reach your destination!

As regards the 3kw charging from home, same thing. Most charging will probably take 4 hours or less.

The 2013 Leaf is getting a 6kw charger, so from home you can charge twice as fast.

Zoe has not got the fast dc charging, it would have been nice to have it included for emergencies, or for the times the sun comes out at the weekend and you decide to pack up the car and head off.

Still 20kw will charge it in under an hour from the street charger, and I suppose I never take a trip to Galway, Westport or where ever without stopping at some sites along the way or for a meal. I like to relax and enjoy the drive too!

If only B&B's could get chargers installed and give them grants to do it would be great, seems like an awful waste if you can't charge in a B&B at night.

Take note B5B owners, if e.v owners have the choice of a B&B with a charger or without, guess which one they will stay ?

lizzybradbury

lizzybradbury wrote: »

p.s. Also, what are you to do while waiting for your car to charge - Is this a new gap in the consumer market? Will companies create entire shopping centres and amusement parks around electric hook-up points....ingenious

They are installed in towns and cities where they are already places to shop!

eringobragh

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather the tax payer pay for energy that is generated in Ireland to help generate more Irish jobs than taxpayers money go to the banks that abused their powers and get away with it!

I'm at a loss here: How an EV owner getting free handouts from the state generates jobs??

More like you want to have your cake and eat it. No such thing as a free lunch I'm afraid and that'll be apparent soon enough for EV owners

lizzybradbury

lizzybradbury wrote: »

I wanna ask this again as I didn't see an answer - How much does it cost on average to run an electric car imagining that you are doing normal driving to work?

OK, well in regards the Nissan Leaf. It costs about 1.60 for a 0-100% full charge. That will take you 65-75 miles at 60-65 mph maybe more depending on weather. You will get more miles if you are not on the motorway all the time.

So I calculated it out that in my old A4 TDI it cost about 96 Euro's to fill a year ago for 600 miles, in the Leaf that same mileage would cost you about 12 Euro's

The Leaf has a 22 kw/hr battery but uses about 20kw/hrs so night electricity costs about 8 cent so 8 cent x 20kw/hrs =1.60

Charge during the day would cost 3.20 amazingly cheap!

You can install solar and drive almost for free, if you are to compare it to petrol or diesel, if doing 20k miles a year the payback would be about 6-7 years for a 5.5 kw/p solar system. Generally solar panels last 30+ years with 80% capacity or so after 20 years. Energy costs only go one way!

The cost of solar has dropped considerably in the last 7 years, making it cheaper by far, than wind!

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

Could you plug in your electric kettle to have a nice cup of [free] tea or maybe your ipad ... I think its bizarre that the taxpayer is funding free electricity for EV's and yet thousands are being cut off by the ESB for the non payment of electricity bills .. talk about a perverted sense of priorities!

ESB ecars give you a card with a chip in it when you register with them. You place the card near a reader on the charging post and then a J1772 port pops open. Similar type technology would be in the Leapcard or London Oyster card. So unless you have a ESB ecars card and a kettle with a J1772 port, no you can't have a free cup of tea... and it wouldn't be a free cup of tea even if you did have a J1772 to 3 pin socket converter as the charging posts don't supply teabags either

As for cost, this is a trial system! EV owners are helping ESB ecars trial this system. Up until now there have been only a handful of these charging posts and possibly even fewer EV's on the road. The payment system goes live in June, at that point whatever electricity you use will either be deducted from a pay as you go type account you setup or it can be added to your domestic electricity bill (any supplier). The cost to ESB ecars of the free charging (test subjects testing the new system for them) would be quite minuscule. €100 so far maybe? Why not ask them if you're curious?

creedp

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

As for cost, this is a trial system! EV owners are helping ESB ecars trial this system. Up until now there have been only a handful of these charging posts and possibly even fewer EV's on the road. The payment system goes live in June, at that point whatever electricity you use will either be deducted from a pay as you go type account you setup or it can be added to your domestic electricity bill (any supplier). The cost to ESB ecars of the free charging (test subjects testing the new system for them) would be quite minuscule. €100 so far maybe? Why not ask them if you're curious?

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

Wossack

they are subject to motor taxes

157e a year afaik

Bandara

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I right in reading that the Leaf takes over SEVEN hours to charge from an ESB point ?

If only B&B's could get chargers installed and give them grants to do it would be great, seems like an awful waste if you can't charge in a B&B at night.

Take note B5B owners, if e.v owners have the choice of a B&B with a charger or without, guess which one they will stay ?

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

I have to renew my motor tax this month, €160 currently which is the same as any regular car in Tax Band A. As for extra taxes on electricity, that is more complex than you realise. I've posted about this before, but the ESB are investing in building a smart grid in Ireland. Smart grid technology usually incorporates EV's as being part of the grid. As in EV's can charge at night time on excess electricity that would normally be wasted or even wind energy not being used and then during the day it can power your home or be released into the grid generally.

That's not science fiction stuff, that's pretty much current day technology. In Japan you can already buy a home charger that allows you to reverse the flow if you know what I mean and run your house from your car. Last time I checked it was about €6,000 to buy this charger from Nissan.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/03/nissans-leaf-to-home-system-sends-power-back-to-your-house-or/

The Nissan Leaf may look like a car, but it turns out it will soon also be an emergency power generator on wheels. The automaker just took the wraps off its new "Leaf to Home" system in Japan this week, which promises to let you send power stored in the car back to your house in the case of an outage, or even back to the grid (letting you charge the car during off-peak hours and profiting when demand is high, for instance). Of course, that also requires more than your basic charging station (this one ties directly into your home's electricity distribution panel), and it's not quite ready for consumer use just yet -- Nissan expects it to be available in Japan by April of next year.

EV owners could have money going into their account for electricity they send back into the grid during peak hours. I'm not saying EV owners shouldn't pay their fair share, I'm just pointing out it's a little bit more complex than the current energy supply system for ICE cars.

Wossack

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Which is a joke in itself, should be tax free.

much like the diesel rates, if theres enough migration to EV, I'd say they're due to go up rather then down

probably a subject for another thread though..!

eringobragh

eringobragh wrote: »

I'm at a loss here: How an EV owner getting free handouts from the state generates jobs??

More like you want to have your cake and eat it. No such thing as a free lunch I'm afraid and that'll be apparent soon enough for EV owners

The free charging was offered initially until the esb figured out the billing system and have 0 plans to continue offering free electricity afaik!

I don't have an e.v and I probably won't for a few years yet, only because I can't afford it at this time, so I have nothing to benefit from free charging.

But anything that converts people to a more efficient and quieter transport is a good thing as far as I'm concerned!

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Eah, bog standard home charging chargers are not in the thousands afaik ?

I'm sure if I have the cable to top up that any B&B owner would hardly so no to plugging in in their shed ?

creedp

creedp wrote: »

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

Who said C02? I don't give a **** about C02!

I care about eliminating the emissions from transport that actually do harm to our health, and actually kill people!

This C02 crap is the biggest scam on earth, and we will find that out soon enough and if people did their research they will find out that the globe is not that warm now at all compared to any point since satellites (the only reliable source of data) started recording temp data in 1979!

People are brainwashed totally from the media rubbish, and the BBC should be ashamed with some of the crap that they spew out!

The main point to people is the FACT electric cars offer the cheapest way of driving, that's all that most people care about.

I care about the environment, but I don't care about C02, it's a gas that plants and trees love!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

...............

The main point to people is the FACT electric cars offer the cheapest way of driving, that's all that most people care about....................

We've discussed this "fact" in depth on a recent thread, iirc the diesel Clio was as cheap to run as the electric Zoe when battery rental was considered.

Anan1

Deleted User wrote: »

This C02 crap is the biggest scam on earth, and we will find that out soon enough and if people did their research they will find out that the globe is not that warm now at all compared to any point since satellites (the only reliable source of data) started recording temp data in 1979!

People are brainwashed totally from the media rubbish, and the BBC should be ashamed with some of the crap that they spew out!

That CO2 is a greenhouse gas is accepted by pretty much the entire scientific community. The only reason that anyone still doubts this is that people who stand to lose a lot of money are spending to maintain doubt, in much the same way as the cigarette companies did with cancer.

Bandara

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Eah, bog standard home charging chargers are not in the thousands afaik ?

Ehhhh

A proper commerical ESB supplied unit is ten thousand.

You either do it correctly or not at all

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

That CO2 is a greenhouse gas is accepted by pretty much the entire scientific community. The only reason that anyone still doubts this is that people who stand to lose a lot of money are spending to maintain doubt, in much the same way as the cigarette companies did with cancer.

NO,

Another thread, for C02

There is a lot of strong evidence to the contrary.

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

Ehhhh

A proper commerical ESB supplied unit is ten thousand.

You either do it correctly or not at all

No I mean the domestic wall box ?

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

We've discussed this "fact" in depth on a recent thread, iirc the diesel Clio was as cheap to run as the electric Zoe when battery rental was considered.

I'm not talking about either car.

I'm talking about the fact electricity is far cheaper to drive on than anything else.

People Don't understand this ?

You got a 30 K golf and a 30 K leaf the leaf is far cheaper to fuel.

You spend 25 k on a golf and 30 k on a leaf and you do 20K miles a year, the leaf works out still cheaper to fuel. And that 5 k would be paid back in 2 years at 20K a year on diesel.

You spend 2 grand on an ice car and 30k on the Leaf the Leaf is still far cheaper to fuel, get it ?

From a saving money point of view it obviously makes sence to buy the ice at 2k, but the leccy is still far cheaper to fuel.

Im not talking saving money here!

o god how many times can I say it.

Right I'm off to work, talk tomorrow folks, or at 1 am

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said C02? I don't give a **** about C02!

So we do agree on something:)

The main point to people is the FACT electric cars offer the cheapest way of driving, that's all that most people care about.

EV's are only cheaper to run becasue they are not, as yet, subject to the same level of taxation as ICE's. By the way you don't seriously think that high levels of taxation currently applied to ICE's has something to do with the envoronment, do you?

creedp

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have to renew my motor tax this month, €160 currently which is the same as any regular car in Tax Band A. As for extra taxes on electricity, that is more complex than you realise. I've posted about this before, but the ESB are investing in building a smart grid in Ireland. Smart grid technology usually incorporates EV's as being part of the grid. As in EV's can charge at night time on excess electricity that would normally be wasted or even wind energy not being used and then during the day it can power your home or be released into the grid generally.

I'm not talking about the cost of gnerrating a unit of electricity, I'm talking about levying excessive duties on the motor fuel. Currently there are massive duties levied on motor fuel over and above those applied to other uses of the same fuel, e.g. home heating oil is somewhere around 90cent/ltr but when put into the tank of a car its 1.60ltr. I know people seem to accept this is reasonable due to peak oil and the envoronment and all that stuff but in reality its simply a tax on motoring. In my view the same will be applied to EV's in the future or else general taxation will be increased or new sources of taxation will be introduced to make up the shortfall from motor fuel taxes. You don't seriously think the Govt will allow this source of revenue to disappaear because of the warm glow generated from EV's. Bottom line excessive motor fuel taxes have nothing to due with the environment or peak oil and everything to do with the soft touch that is motoring and that is not going to go away.

eringobragh

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather the tax payer pay for energy that is generated in Ireland to help generate more Irish jobs than taxpayers money go to the banks that abused their powers and get away with it!

Deleted User wrote: »

The free charging was offered initially until the esb figured out the billing system and have 0 plans to continue offering free electricity afaik!

I don't have an e.v and I probably won't for a few years yet, only because I can't afford it at this time, so I have nothing to benefit from free charging.

But anything that converts people to a more efficient and quieter transport is a good thing as far as I'm concerned!

Yes but..How does it generate jobs as you claimed?...unless you count the already employed ESB worker installing the €10,000 euro charge stations with tax payers money (including his wages)

Joe 90

creedp wrote: »

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it. As soon as enough people have locked themselves and large chunks of their cash into EVs they will be hit by tax in some shape or form, probably a fairly big chunk of tax(es). Just look at what is going to happen to low emission conventional cars.

Joe 90

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not talking about either car.

I'm talking about the fact electricity is far cheaper to drive on than anything else.

People Don't understand this ?

You got a 30 K golf and a 30 K leaf the leaf is far cheaper to fuel.

You spend 25 k on a golf and 30 k on a leaf and you do 20K miles a year, the leaf works out still cheaper to fuel. And that 5 k would be paid back in 2 years at 20K a year on diesel.

You spend 2 grand on an ice car and 30k on the Leaf the Leaf is still far cheaper to fuel, get it ?

From a saving money point of view it obviously makes sence to buy the ice at 2k, but the leccy is still far cheaper to fuel.

Im not talking saving money here!

o god how many times can I say it.

Right I'm off to work, talk tomorrow folks, or at 1 am

Only because the fuel for the Golf is highly taxed. When there are enough Leafs (Leaves?) for the government to feel the pain the the Leaf owners will share the pain. He will have paid his extra 5k or whatever over the cost of the Golf and somehow or other the government will recoup the tax he does not pay on diesel or petrol.

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

I'm not talking about the cost of gnerrating a unit of electricity, I'm talking about levying excessive duties on the motor fuel. Currently there are massive duties levied on motor fuel over and above those applied to other uses of the same fuel, e.g. home heating oil is somewhere around 90cent/ltr but when put into the tank of a car its 1.60ltr. I know people seem to accept this is reasonable due to peak oil and the envoronment and all that stuff but in reality its simply a tax on motoring. In my view the same will be applied to EV's in the future or else general taxation will be increased or new sources of taxation will be introduced to make up the shortfall from motor fuel taxes. You don't seriously think the Govt will allow this source of revenue to disappaear because of the warm glow generated from EV's. Bottom line excessive motor fuel taxes have nothing to due with the environment or peak oil and everything to do with the soft touch that is motoring and that is not going to go away.

I think you're reading me wrong. A unit of electricity put into an EV is currently used exclusively for moving the vehicle on the roads. If things stayed that simple then a smart meter could probably be used to levy a tax on electricity used for charging EV's.

What I'm talking about is what happens when EV's take in electricity at night and supply it back to the grid during the day time. Currently the ESB and other countries are considering paying EV owners for this service. At the moment we generate a lot of electricity both during the day and nighttime. However it is only during the day that you get the massive peaks in usage. Having EV's feeding back in to the grid during the day when not in use would help even out the demand for electricity between night and day, thereby increasing the efficiency of our grid.

Even ignoring smart grid technology for the moment, would you tax day time charging the same as night time charging? Charging at night time an EV owner is most definitely using electricity that would otherwise have been wasted. Like I said, it's not as simple as the energy supply system used for ICE cars. How about someone who uses their own solar array to charge their car?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0601/1224298200715.html

Prof Wrixon’s 6 sq m array generates 7,200 kilowatt (kW) hours a year; he estimates that his car will need 5,000kW a year to satisfy his driving requirements, which are around 10,000km a year. His journeys are mostly short ones to Cork city and back.

Anan1

Joe 90 wrote: »

I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it. As soon as enough people have locked themselves and large chunks of their cash into EVs they will be hit by tax in some shape or form, probably a fairly big chunk of tax(es). Just look at what is going to happen to low emission conventional cars.

This is true but, given that large power plants are inherently many times more efficient than ICE, old-fashioned cars will still be getting hit harder.

creedp

Joe 90 wrote: »

Only because the fuel for the Golf is highly taxed. When there are enough Leafs (Leaves?) for the government to feel the pain the the Leaf owners will share the pain. He will have paid his extra 5k or whatever over the cost of the Golf and somehow or other the government will recoup the tax he does not pay on diesel or petrol.

How about a 'precious metal in battery tax' - PMBT. This will be necessary to minimise the environmental cost associated with the consumption of depleting resources of such precious in car batteries. Its an extension of the polluter pays principle. This could be applied as either a VRT tax for EV's or an annual motor tax. How could anyone argue against such a policy?

By the way I have no problem with EV's despite what I go on with here, but I do think that cars are excessively taxed because they are perceived, wrongly or rightly, as a luxury item and an easy touch. This will/should apply equally to EV's and no amount of claims re: clean energy and dependance on peak oil will change that. Big Phil Hogan or his successor will see to that.

Bruthal

Anan1 wrote: »

This is true but, given that large power plants are inherently many times more efficient than ICE, old-fashioned cars will still be getting hit harder.

Thats true alright.

With electric cars though, the ineffeciencies and co2 emmissions will still exist, they are just being moved to the generating stations. Although emmissions can likely be better dealt with when they are concentrated to these stations.

At the end of the day, its all about revenue from peoples cars. The new low emmission motor taxes were only sustainable while they were relatively low in numbers, from the governments point of view.

creedp

Anan1 wrote: »

This is true but, given that large power plants are inherently many times more efficient than ICE, old-fashioned cars will still be getting hit harder.

I always hear this as an argument in favour of EV's yet when it come to using heat pumps for heating a domestic home you are penalised because electricity is seen as a dirty fuel and suffers from significant losses due to transmision losses over the grid. Consequently any grants associated with electric home heating have been discontinued. Which is correct? In fact for domestic heating people are being encouraged to install efficient oil boilers instead? Now why should electricity be seen as inefficient compared to oil for home heating but apparently the new saviour for motoring? So much so that people continue to get substantial taxpayers grants to switch to EV's. I'm confused