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National Army Museum On-line vote for best commander the British faced - Collins link

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    #32
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Where would those Irish who took advantage of surrender and regrant fit ?

    http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2002/20021101jfc.htm

    Well, we should try to at least make a difference between those who tried to keep a crust in their mouths under difficult or impossible conditions - and those who betrayed battle plans and were downright informers. God knows we had enough of the latter...


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    #33
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Indeed, of course there were plenty who took part in Surrender and Regrant (either directly or their fathers) who subsequently lost it all. Prime example of course been Aodh Ó Néill Earl of Tyrone, it been his "grandfather" Conn Bacach Ó Néill (Bacach = lame/cripple) who did the surrender/regrant -- I use inverted comments as Aodh father Feardorcha ("Dark Man" -- known as Matthew in english) status as a son of Conn is somewhat contested. Most claim he was really an O'Kelly.


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    #34
    clappyhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,781 ✭✭✭clappyhappy


    Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »
    Yes. The Sunday Times last weekend mentioned they had put in software to prevent multiple voting on the same candidate especially as the Irish has prior history with internet polls. A practically unknown former Bray player was voted best soccer player in the world.


    Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:


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    #35
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    clappyhappy wrote: »
    Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:

    It's all too easy to stereotype the British and they usually give us good votes in the eurovision.

    Maybe they dont like " Irelands Call " either.


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    #36
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Oh yes, Fred and we all know how open and honest the Brits have always been in their election dealings both within Britain and with others - wonder what all that 'election reform' in Britain was about then? Or - just picking randomly - how about Churchill's and Sir Percy Cox's meddling in Middle East elections so as to get the 'right' result?

    sense of humour March, sense of humour.


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    #37
    clappyhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,781 ✭✭✭clappyhappy


    CDfm wrote: »
    It's all too easy to stereotype the British and they usually give us good votes in the eurovision.

    Maybe they dont like " Irelands Call " either.


    Most Irish don't like it either :o


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    #38
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    clappyhappy wrote: »
    Most Irish don't like it either :o

    Well the votes are in so its time for you to contact the IRFU on the new song - the British don't object :D


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    #39
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    sense of humour March, sense of humour.


    Same to you Fred....same to you.


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    #40
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    clappyhappy wrote: »
    Most Irish don't like it either :o

    Phil Coulter worst work.


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    #41
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    clappyhappy wrote: »
    Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:

    Yes but the internet was a new and shiny thing then


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    #42
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    who the fug wrote: »
    Yes but the internet was a new and shiny thing then

    As an aside Ireland has been connected to the Internet since 1987


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    #43
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=micheal%20collins%20vote&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2Fireland%2F2012%2F0416%2F1224314763603.html&ei=wMeNT6qBIMuzhAfh4eDtCg&usg=AFQjCNEw1vWZ1fcriMcXPB4S9mb3gm6AtQ


    I hope this is the forum for this thread.

    THE FIRST president of the United States, George Washington, has been voted Britain’s greatest enemy commander by historians and academics, overcoming the challenge of Ireland’s revolutionary leader Michael Collins.
    Washington secured 30 votes against 14 for Collins at the National Army Museum in London over the weekend.
    Third was Napoleon Bonaparte, with 12 votes, followed by Erwin Rommel with seven and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (four).
    The final vote concluded a hard-fought contest launched by the museum in February, which asked the public to vote online for their top foe. From its launch on February 13th to its close on March 31st, the online voting site attracted almost 8,000 votes and more than 300,000 web hits.
    The top five commanders, as determined by the online poll, then went forward to be represented at the all-day speaker event on Saturday, where guests voted for Washington as the ultimate foe.
    Dr Stephen Brumwell, a specialist in 18th century North American history, said Washington scores highly as an enemy of Britain on key grounds. “The immense scale of damage he inflicts upon Britain’s army and empire – the most jarring defeat that either endured; his ability to not only provide inspirational battlefield leadership but to work with civilians who were crucial to sustain the war effort. As British officers conceded, he was a worthy opponent.”
    Gabriel Doherty, history lecturer at University College Cork, had stated the case for Collins, insisting he was more than just a great military leader. “He had many different hats, and his political and administrative skills tend to be a lot more overlooked.”
    The poll was created to highlight the achievements of Britain’s most celebrated enemies and to draw attention to some of the country’s lesser-known adversaries.
    In assembling the shortlist, the main criterion was that each commander had to have led an army against British forces in the field of battle (which saw the exclusion of political enemies such as Adolf Hitler) and they had to fall within the museum’s remit (from the 17th century onwards).
    The museum explores the impact of the British army on the story of Britain, Europe and the world, how Britain’s past has helped shape its present and and how the actions of a few can affect the futures of many.
    The museum was established by royal charter to tell the story of the land forces of the crown wherever they were raised. Opened by the queen in 1960, it moved to its current site in Chelsea in 1971.
    Crown's fiercest military foes

    1st: George Washington
    2nd: Michael Collins
    3rd: Napoleon Bonaparte

    4th: Erwin Rommel

    5th: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk


    I was under the impression that the war Micheal collins fought against the british was a guerrilla type war ? What are the posters opinions of this vote, I must say it surprised me with M collins being voted ahead of Napoleon & Rommel.


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    #44
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    realies wrote: »
    ...
    In assembling the shortlist, the main criterion was that each commander had to have led an army against British forces in the field of battle (which saw the exclusion of political enemies such as Adolf Hitler) and they had to fall within the museum’s remit (from the 17th century onwards).
    .....


    I was under the impression that the war Micheal collins fought against the british was a guerrilla type war ? What are the posters opinions of this vote, I must say it surprised me with M collins being voted ahead of Napoleon & Rommel.

    I presume its the same as discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056583005

    Do you feel that Collins did not fit the criteria?

    I would have thought that the manner in which Collins developed a type of warfare that would work in Ireland makes him an excellent candidate for this type of discussion. Of course measuring these commanders from different wars and all the variations in context that that entails is impossible and completely subjective to the person making the judgement.


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    #45
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Sorry did not see that thread and I did look :o Without reading that thread yet, I didn't think he would have fit that criteria, Going to read it now,You can close this thread as it seems it already has/is been discussed, Thanks.

    Or better still move this to that thread :-)


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    #46
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    realies wrote: »
    ...
    I didn't think he would have fit that criteria, Going to read it now,You can close this thread as it seems it already has/is been discussed, Thanks.

    No problem- its a fair addition to the thread if you wish to make the point. I don't really agree that he does'nt fit their criteria but as I said already this type of poll is subjective.


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    #47
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Well my opinion being,
    As rommel and napoleon fought massive land wars against there enemies,moving vast armies across N africa and europe, Collins war was more of a using Flying columns and I just never put him up there with other leading figures, My bad and I shall give him more respect the next time he comes into conversations.


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    #48
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    realies wrote: »
    Well my opinion being,
    As rommel and napoleon fought massive land wars against there enemies,moving vast armies across N africa and europe, Collins war was more of a using Flying columns and I just never put him up there with other leading figures, My bad and I shall give him more respect the next time he comes into conversations.

    And they lost.

    Nuff said.


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    #49
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    CDfm wrote: »
    And they lost.

    Nuff said.


    That wasn't the question, It was britain's fiercest foes and for whats its worth I dont think MC won either,but I suppose that would be for another thread.


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