Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

Gevie Stee

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that is their problem.
People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.

If they don't respect us in their country, why should Ireland always be the ones to cower to everyone elses demands.
I wouldnt go to those countries because I don't like the way they treat women, same way if they don't like our rules noones stopping them from leaving.
Religion cannot be used as an excuse to be treated different.

af_thefragile

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is something I dont get, how can any right minded person think that having people with full face coverings in a passport photo is a good idea? Just because it has been accepted practice up to know does not mean the Irish state should continue to unquestioningly tow the line - IT MAKES NO SENSE AND COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN ID PHOTO. Why bother with the photo at all? Scrap the whole photo system and any time a garda or immigration officer stops a woman in full headgear, bring them to the nearest station and do the biometric checks and then send her on her way. Is that more acceptable?

I have fairly short hair on my passport photo and was very young. Now im much older and have much longer hair too. I look ver different from what i do on my passport photo. The notion that the photo id is the immediate proof of identification is falacious.
And why should the garda have the right to stop random people on the street and do identity checks on them in the first place.

Dudess

af_thefragile wrote: »

Gevie Stee wrote: »

So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that is their problem.
People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.

The reasoning behind it is practicality - and it's for a few seconds. Why are you pretending the intent behind it is crushing religious freedom? And xenophobia? Again, you're undermining the experiences of those who actually experience same.

K-9

hondasam wrote: »

I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.

You and your fancy facts and stuff and reading the links in the OP! Cheek of you.

Laneyh

They're entitled to query the policy as the hijab doesn't conceal the face so
I could see why they might ask why they need to remove it

However I know for passport photos and visa applications there are fairly strict guidelines in terms of your ears and side of face being visible and that kind of thing. Whomever is taking the photos is going to want a situation where they're least likely to have to retake the photo.

If a nun were asked to remove her veil for the photo I doubt we'd have heard about it.
Possibly because she wouldn't query it or possibly because it wouldn't cause such a knee jerk reaction from both the PC gone mad and the we're a bunch of intolerant sods brigades.

There's every chance that the majority of women asked removed the hijab without hesitation. A small number queried the neccessity for it and
the gardai have already responded to the query.

According to all involved its been handled sensitively and a resolution found.
I don't think the gardai were doing it from a perspective of intolerance.

We shouldn't be too quick to assume that we're in the wrong as a society or culturally insensitive

By the same token we shouldn't be too quick to assume that particular communities or religious groups are always looking for special treatment.

dlofnep

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

That's a ridiculous comparison.

It's not a comparison. The poster stated that we should respect people's religious beliefs. It is a held belief within Islam that apostasy should carry the punishment of death.

You can't pick and choose where to apply your logic afraid. I'm 100% consistent with mine. Equal rights for everybody, irrespective of their religion. No exceptions.

MaxSteele

fluorescence wrote: »

If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.

Just because these women come from another culture, doesn't mean they should have an automatic immunity to our regulations when they come here.

Oh Fluorescence you can't say that, it's ignorant !! Religious beliefs (no matter how petty or draconian) are unquestionably superior to written Irish law.

MajorMax

If I appear for an official photograph in my pirate costume, I'm a committed Pastafarian (Reformed), I would treat any attempt to remove my Parrot or eye patch as a breach of my religious rights

dlofnep

irelandrover wrote: »

No we shouldn't. When the religious freedom imposes on other people it should not be tolerated. the wearing of a headscarf for a photo does not impose on anyone else.

So someone should be allowed to wear a paddy cap and ear-muffs for the same ID, right?

tigger123

fluorescence wrote: »

If I went to an arab country that required me by law to wear a hijab (or a niqab, which I think is the full face version), I'd have to wear it (end of) or leave the country. Here, we ask that they take it off for 5 seconds to have a photo taken and the rest of the time they can dress as they will. A big fuss was made and now they get to keep their hair coverings on for photos. Having one set of rules for them and another for everybody else is simply ridiculous, and hinders Ireland from becoming an egalitarian society.

I've never understood this logic, why should the laws and customs in another country, thousands of miles away dictate or influence or laws and regulations here in the State? Either you believe they should have to remove their headdress or you don't. The laws and customs in another part of the world shouldn't influence this.

fluorescence wrote: »

Of course it is, because it suits them very well not to have to comply with the normal laws of the land.

Why does it suit them to not comply with the laws?

af_thefragile

Dudess wrote: »

The reasoning behind it is practicality - and it's for a few seconds. Why are you pretending the intent behind it is crushing religious freedom? And xenophobia? Again, you're undermining the experiences of those who actually experience same.

So undermining one's cultural and religious identity because it is very different to the ones of people here is not xenophobic?

Does it have to be at the level of nazi germany for it to be considered xenophobic?

Fluorescence

Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be persecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?

Gevie Stee

fluorescence wrote: »

Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be prosecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?

I'll join this religion with you

woodoo

Better get themselves tarted up and look the part for their photo then.

hondasam

fluorescence wrote: »

If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.

Only head coverings worn for religious reasons are permitted

They could not ask you to take it off.

Fluorescence

tigger123 wrote: »

I've never understood this logic, why should the laws and customs in another country, thousands of miles away dictate or influence or laws and regulations here in the State? Either you believe they should have to remove their headdress or you don't. The laws and customs in another part of the world shouldn't influence this.

I didn't say it should affect our laws. What I was trying to say is that these same people would be horrified and disgusted if I didn't follow common practise there. Whereas when they come here, we ask only a very minor thing in comparison (take off the veil for a photo as opposed to wear a veil the entire time you are in the country).

tigger123 wrote: »

Why does it suit them to not comply with the laws?

Because it means they don't have to step outside their comfort zone for a minute or two.

FTGFOP

Unless regular head scarves, and other apparel that cover a similar amount of the hair and neck are permitted then it is a double standard.

My 2c is that I don't mind that the hijab is worn for the photograph but I think it's bullshit that an atheist wouldn't be allowed to wear an equivalent covering.

Fluorescence

hondasam wrote: »

They could not ask you to take it off.

Yet would you not agree that this is a farce and by all rights I should be told to stop taking the piss and get my photo taken properly? It is a made up church, after all.

dlofnep

af_thefragile wrote: »

So undermining one's cultural and religious identity because it is very different to the ones of people here is not xenophobic?

No, it isn't. Someone can have a perfectly rational reason for objecting to allowing certain beliefs and cultural practices. It doesn't have to be driven by fear or ignorance.

irelandrover

dlofnep wrote: »

So someone should be allowed to wear a paddy cap and ear-muffs for the same ID, right?

Yes, they should.

hondasam

fluorescence wrote: »

I didn't say it should affect our laws. What I was trying to say is that these same people would be horrified and disgusted if I didn't follow common practise there. Whereas when they come here, we ask only a very minor thing in comparison (take off the veil for a photo as opposed to wear a veil the entire time you are in the country).

What purpose does it serve to photograph them without the veil, it's not how they normally look, for id purposes it's better to leave it on imo.

Nodin

I fail to see the big deal. They're allowed wear a scarf for the passport.....its not made of human flesh torn from a sacrifical victim....

af_thefragile

fluorescence wrote: »

Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be prosecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?

Are you meant to wear it everytime you are outside? If so then that is a part of your identity. You dont ask people to shave off their beards before taking a passport photo do you?

Islam is a major world religion followed by over a fifth of the world's population. You cannot undermine them.

hondasam

fluorescence wrote: »

Yet would you not agree that this is a farce and by all rights I should be told to stop taking the piss and get my photo taken properly? It is a made up church, after all.

I'm not sure if you are saying you would do it for the laugh, I'm sure you would have to provide proof of your religion or something, I have no idea how that would work.

Fluorescence

hondasam wrote: »

What purpose does it serve to photograph them without the veil, it's not how they normally look, for id purposes it's better to leave it on imo.

That is true and I do actually agree with you. I don't have an issue with them wearing a head-covering in photos (obviously so long as it's not a full face one). I do have a problem with there being a different set of rules for different people. That's not equality at work, it's the seeds of segregation.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Are you meant to wear it everytime you are outside? If so then that is a part of your identity. You dont ask people to shave off their beards before taking a passport photo do you?

Islam is a major world religion followed by over a fifth of the world's population. You cannot undermine them.

Yes. My people must wear their flotation device at all times. This is because we believe the wrath of Poseidon could strike at any moment, flooding the earth, and that we chosen ones will be saved thanks to the religious headgear we wear.

Asking us to take it off would mean we will be swept away with the other heathons when the end of the world comes.

af_thefragile

^so you just answered your own question there. If its that important to you that you wear it everywhere you go, then that is a part of your identity and thats how one would identify you so you shouldn't be asked to take it off for your identification photo.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it isn't. Someone can have a perfectly rational reason for objecting to allowing certain beliefs and cultural practices. It doesn't have to be driven by fear or ignorance.

Those are your personal believes but at the same time you are disrespecting the believes of the person.

If you believe Islam is ridiculous, thats your personal believe but if you start undermining and disrespecting muslims because of your belief them i'm afraid to say that is what xenophia is.

dlofnep

af_thefragile wrote: »

If you believe Islam is ridiculous, thats your personal believe but if you start undermining and disrespecting muslims because of your belief them i'm afraid to say that is what xenophia is.

No, I'm afraid that's not what xenophobia is. We are simply not obliged to respect the beliefs of anyone. That is different from respecting someone's right to hold certain beliefs.

suicide_circus

hondasam wrote: »

I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.

Indeed. But in my line of work I often see passports and there are plenty of Muslim woman wearing the full veil.
The article says no woman wearing the full veil had been asked to remove it for the photo, which is kind of confusing

Nothingbetter2d

Gevie Stee wrote: »

I'll join this religion with you

don't its a tarp Flouresence will probably brain wash ya into a mass suicide

Glico Man

Anyone else remember the Austrian pastafarian who fought for 3 years for the right to wear a pasta strainer on his head for his driving license picture?

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54049000/jpg/_54049868_hl_fuehrerschein_110712.jpg

hondasam

fluorescence wrote: »

That is true and I do actually agree with you. I don't have an issue with them wearing a head-covering in photos (obviously so long as it's not a full face one). I do have a problem with there being a different set of rules for different people. That's not equality at work, it's the seeds of segregation.

I would not agree to the full face being covered either. I would be one to promote while in Rome etc but for this particular instance I feel they should be allowed wear the jihab.
That's not to say I agree with having different rules for different religions or anything else, I believe in equality as well.

suicide_circus

The problem is, people think they have the right not to be offended - no such right exists. The Irish state does not interfere with peoples religious practices, but in a case where a photo has to be taken for a state document, it is perfectly reasonable that a woman be asked to make herself visible. Thia may offend or upset her but tbh, thats tough ****e.

Fluorescence

af_thefragile wrote: »

^so you just answered your own question there. If its that important to you that you wear it everywhere you go, then that is a part of your identity and thats how one would identify you so you shouldn't be asked to take it off for your identification photo.

Yes, but I guarantee the Powers That Be would declare this is a pisstake because it doesn't have a tradition spanning thousands of years. So, either they declare my religion is stupid and doesn't count (in which case, who decides what is valid??) or they allow it and suddenly everyone has wonky passport photos because there's 25 billion new religions that require various facial garb.

Where do we draw the line? Why can't people see that having different rules for different groups of people is not the way to go?

af_thefragile

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I'm afraid that's not what xenophobia is. We are simply not obliged to respect the beliefs of anyone. That is different from respecting someone's right to hold certain beliefs.

You are discriminating against a group of people simply because their belives do not conform to your own. What do you call that?

dlofnep

af_thefragile wrote: »

You are discriminating against a group of people simply because their belives do not conform to your own. What do you call that?

I'm not discriminating against anyone I'm afraid. I'm calling for equality for all, irrespective of their religion.

af_thefragile

fluorescence wrote: »

Yes, but I guarantee the Powers That Be would declare this is a pisstake because it doesn't have a tradition spanning thousands of years. So, either they declare my religion is stupid and doesn't count (in which case, who decides what is valid??) or they allow it and suddenly everyone has wonky passport photos because there's 25 billion new religions that require various facial garb.

Where do we draw the line? Why can't people see that having different rules for different groups of people is not the way to go?

More than a fifth of the word's population is muslim. You cannot antagonise such a large population of people. Especially when you hold many important political and economic interests with these countries.

Fluorescence

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

don't its a tarp Flouresence will probably brain wash ya into a mass suicide

Why are you so ignorant about my religious beliefs?? :P

af_thefragile

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not discriminating against anyone I'm afraid. I'm calling for equality for all, irrespective of their religion.

In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

token101

You photograph them without the veil and if the Garda is in doubt he makes them take the thing off. If that's unreasonable on some strict religious grounds then Western society isn't for you.

dlofnep

af_thefragile wrote: »

In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

No, it's not discrimination. If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?

suicide_circus

af_thefragile wrote: »

In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

Wut?

FTGFOP

af_thefragile wrote: »

More than a fifth of the word's population is muslim. You cannot antagonise such a large population of people. Especially when you hold many important political and economic interests with these countries.

I don't have a problem with the hijab. Do you think a person should be allowed to wear a hairband in their photo? The regulations state it's not allowed. Would you be happy to see this changed?

Fluorescence

af_thefragile wrote: »

In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

Ok, what if you had an item of clothing (say, a baseball hat) that meant the world to you. It has nothing to do with a religious or cultural rule, it's just this hat belonged to someone you loved dearly who died. Now you wear it all day everyday in their memory.

Hats aren't allowed. No exceptions. Is your identity being compromised? I mean, it's not like you'll ever be seen without the hat. Would that be taken into account? No. No it would not. No hats, no exceptions/

hondasam

suicide_circus wrote: »

Indeed. But in my line of work I often see passports and there are plenty of Muslim woman wearing the full veil.
The article says no woman wearing the full veil had been asked to remove it for the photo, which is kind of confusing

Are they not allowed wear the full veil for their own countries passport?
I do not know if they would be asked to remove it here for the GNIB card but I would say they would have to. Open to correction.

The incidents did not involve women wearing the niqab or full-face veil.

I'm taking this to mean they will remove these for the photograph, could be totally wrong but that's the way I read it.

Chuck Stone

GET YOUR HAIR OUT

GET YOUR HAIR OUT

GET-YOUR-HAIR-OUT-FOR-THE-LADS

GE-EH-EH-EH-EH-ET YOUR HAIR OUT!

af_thefragile

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not discrimination. If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?

Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.

Fluorescence

hondasam wrote: »

I'm taking this to mean they will remove these for the photograph, could be totally wrong but that's the way I read it.

That was how I read it as well.

kylith

AFAIK there's NO religious imperitave to wear a hijab. It's a cultural thing. Therefore there are no grounds for people to be exempted from removing it.

That said, as long as their face is visible I see no reason for them to Remove it.

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.

they take off the fcuking veil all the time
taking it off IN PRIVATE for 5 mins to take a photo is not part of their identity. and for you to continue to insist that it is, is as much an insult to them as anyone else

dlofnep

af_thefragile wrote: »

Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.

You didn't answer my question. I will ask it again.

If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?

And if you think I am misinformed, then here is a direct quote from the Qur'an: http://quran.com/4/34