Tenant refusing to leave

Burnbaby76

Hi all,

Wondering if anyone else has been subject to a similar situation, and if so how they handled it.....

I am officially an Owner Occupier of a house - due to family circumstances, I have not been living there although kept a bedroom in the house.

In the meantime, I did rent 2 of the other bedrooms out.

In February of this year it became evident that my situation has changed and I explained to both lodgers that I was giving them notice to be out of the property by April. One of the lodgers explained that they needed an extension at the time and I agreed to this (begrudingly).

The second lodger, expressed no sentiment however, a couple of weeks ago requested a reference for potential landlords, which I provided without issue.

Today I received an obnoxious voicemail informing me that I was everything under the sun (name calling and general defamation of character!) and that they were not moving out until "they were good and ready".

Can someone please give me some guidance on this one?

At present although on paper Im living there, I wasn't due to move back officially until the middle of next month.

I'm fearful that something untoward with happen to my property.

Lyn256

From what I can gather, lodgers don;t have nearly the same rights as tenants.
I'm not suggesting that you turf them out on their ears and change the locks but I think that you could do that without any legal repercusion.

If I'm right in thinking that its at least a 3 bedroom property and you have a bedroom there-whats stopping you moving back in tomorrow and dealing with them directly??

So you've given them notice and are playing the nice guy-why are they still there?? Is there a lack of property to rent in your area?

I think I'd stop being nice . . .

schemingbohemia

So on the presumed basis that you have not been declaring tax or paying the NPPR or PRTB on this property you now want the protection of the State when you decide to kick someone out? :rolleyes:

There's no such thing as being technically an owner occupier, you either are or you're not. It's like being pregnant.

Burnbaby76

I am an owner occupier.. had to move home due to family reasons - but all my bills etc still go to the house - so it's not like being pregnant at all!!!


I gave 6 weeks notice - as soon as I knew, they did. I thought that was fair.

Given the abuse I had to listen to this am, am thinking I want this particular individual out now - stuff the end of the month!

Zamboni

Burnbaby76 wrote: »

The second lodger, expressed no sentiment however, a couple of weeks ago requested a reference for potential landlords, which I provided without issue.

Today I received an obnoxious voicemail informing me that I was everything under the sun (name calling and general defamation of character!) and that they were not moving out until "they were good and ready".

Must have been some reference

Lyn256

Well if you don;t own any other property and you are still maintaining a bedroom in the property then, of course, you are an owner occupier.

As an owner occupier you can earn up to €10k (I think) in rent without being liable for tax and you are not required to register with PTRB and or pay the NPPR.

I was an owner occupier with lodgers for almost ten years and similar to the OP-during one year due to personal circumstances I was resident in the house and another location. Then things changed and I was back in my house again-I had the same lodgers-before during and after I was 'co-located'

syklops

I hope you kept a copy of the reference so you can show it to the individual to prove that the reference you gave was a gleaming reference.

Sounds like they didnt like what was said about them.

What did the reference say?

Burnbaby76

It was a standard reference.

Regardless of what it said... I don't appreciate this feeling of being held to randsom by this person.

Does anyone know if I have to uphold the original decision of April 1 or can I informed them to leave tonight?

syklops wrote: »

I hope you kept a copy of the reference so you can show it to the individual to prove that the reference you gave was a gleaming reference.

Sounds like they didnt like what was said about them.

What did the reference say?

Kosseegan

You can move back in yourself and change the lock on the door tonight if you want. That is what you should do if you are getting any trouble.

Tigger

Burnbaby76 wrote: »

I am officially an Owner Occupier of a house - due to family circumstances, I have not been living there although kept a bedroom in the house.

occupier ?

In the meantime, I did rent 2 of the other bedrooms out.

In February of this year it became evident that my situation has changed and I explained to both lodgers that I was giving them notice to be out of the property by April. One of the lodgers explained that they needed an extension at the time and I agreed to this (begrudingly).

The second lodger, expressed no sentiment however, a couple of weeks ago requested a reference for potential landlords, which I provided without issue.

Today I received an obnoxious voicemail informing me that I was everything under the sun (name calling and general defamation of character!) and that they were not moving out until "they were good and ready".

defamation?

Can someone please give me some guidance on this one?

At present although on paper Im living there,

on paper you live there?

I wasn't due to move back officially until the middle of next month.

I'm fearful that something untoward with happen to my property.

i'd be fearful they reportyou for pretending to be an owner occupier for tax purposes

Tigger

Kosseegan wrote: »

You can move back in yourself and change the lock on the door tonight if you want. That is what you should do if you are getting any trouble.

yes evict them with no formal notice and then use the pretence that you are an owner occupier using the rent a room scheme

syklops

Burnbaby76 wrote: »

It was a standard reference.

Regardless of what it said... I don't appreciate this feeling of being held to randsom by this person.

Well he or she probably doesnt appreciate being evicted. You gave them 6 weeks notice. Why such a specific deadline if you are moving back in yourself? You said you have a bedroom there. I appreciate you want your own house back, but it might depend how you worded it to them the first night.

odds_on

Tigger wrote: »

occupier ?



defamation?


on paper you live there?



i'd be fearful they reportyou for pretending to be an owner occupier for tax purposes

I agree with Trigger.

I think that, if it came to the crunch, the law might consider that your "lodgers" might well be classed as tenants and have a Part 4 tenancy and all the backing of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. Just because you have all your bills sent to that address does not mean that you are living there, and that is the crux of the matter - residing at the property.

Having said that, there is no problem in giving them a valid Notice of Termination under a section 34 of the RTA, by giving them written notice with the prescribed details and the correct notice period.

I don't recall having read how long they were in the property and how long you were living away from the property, which could well make a difference.

ANXIOUS

I wouldn't pay to much attention to people on here they seem to hate landlords. Having looked at this form last night, im not actually sure the landlord has to live there.

If you Google it you'll get the answer you are looking for.

not even wrong

I am officially an Owner Occupier of a house - due to family circumstances, I have not been living there although kept a bedroom in the house.

If you're not living there then you're not an occupier. You'd better make nice with your tenant before they report you to the Revenue for tax evasion.

And when you have the tenant situation sorted out you should be aware that you owe tax to the Revenue on the rent you were paid -- you were not entitled to take advantage of the rent-a-room scheme as you were not living in the property.

GetWithIt

What does RS mean in the title of this thread mean, Rent Supplement?

I didn't know rent supplement could be claimed by a tenant under the rent a room scheme.

Tigger

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I wouldn't pay to much attention to people on here they seem to hate landlords. Having looked at this form last night, im not actually sure the landlord has to live there.

If you Google it you'll get the answer you are looking for.

Mate of mine reckoned that the taxman wouldn't know
If apples were garlic

n900guy

There is no mandatory registration of your primary residence in Ireland with any council. Therefore, it's pointless arguing about "report him to the taxman". None of the OP concerned taxes. As the house is his primary residence, and he can prove it, he can sleep on the street outside, on a tree, at a friends place and it's completely none of the concern of the lodgers under the rent a room scheme.

Too many busybodies I think; do you track down all "owner occupiers" and if they spend one night ina hotel per year then HA YOUR ARE NOT AN OCCUPIER GO STRAAYT 2 JAIL!!!!.

He has lodgers, wants them out, gave adequate notice and has a good reason. For some reason this became him not being an owner occupier (how so? where is the council that he is now registered with? NOWHERE. Because that is the legal situation of your registered owner occupier status in Ireland) and evading tax. How many days how many nights do you have to be there under these boards.ie magical criteria to be an owner occupier? go to work? well that's FIVE WHOLE DAYS not at home, not occupying. And a weekend away? You might as well be a foridner!

What a bunch of moronic anwers.

If they remain past the period of reasonable notice, and refuse to leave, they are trespassing. If there is no tenancy agreement and he is an owner occupier, they do not have any Part 4 Tenancy.

Tigger

n900guy wrote: »

There is no mandatory registration of your primary residence in Ireland with any council. Therefore, it's pointless arguing about "report him to the taxman". None of the OP concerned taxes. As the house is his primary residence, and he can prove it, he can sleep on the street outside, on a tree, at a friends place and it's completely none of the concern of the lodgers under the rent a room scheme.

Too many busybodies I think; do you track down all "owner occupiers" and if they spend one night ina hotel per year then HA YOUR ARE NOT AN OCCUPIER GO STRAAYT 2 JAIL!!!!.

He has lodgers, wants them out, gave adequate notice and has a good reason. For some reason this became him not being an owner occupier (how so? where is the council that he is now registered with? NOWHERE. Because that is the legal situation of your registered owner occupier status in Ireland) and evading tax. How many days how many nights do you have to be there under these boards.ie magical criteria to be an owner occupier? go to work? well that's FIVE WHOLE DAYS not at home, not occupying. And a weekend away? You might as well be a foridner!

What a bunch of moronic anwers.

If they remain past the period of reasonable notice, and refuse to leave, they are trespassing. If there is no tenancy agreement and he is an owner occupier, they do not have any Part 4 Tenancy.

If he dosent live there he's not an occupier

Calling me a busybody for answering the op s question is a tad moronic
Shouting your opinion and using insulting terms will not make your point true btw

n900guy

Tigger wrote: »

If he dosent live there he's not an occupier

Calling me a busybody for answering the op s question is a tad moronic
Shouting your opinion and using insulting terms will not make your point true btw

Let's see the law that describes what an occupier is. His tax and legal status are absolutely nothing to do with his OP or the matter in hand.

So back on topic? And to clarify, an owned home makes you an occupier there even if you spent half the year in a tent in Connemara.

GetWithIt

n900guy wrote: »

If they remain past the period of reasonable notice, and refuse to leave, they are trespassing. If there is no tenancy agreement and he is an owner occupier, they do not have any Part 4 Tenancy.

n900guy wrote: »

Let's see the law that describes what an occupier is. His tax and legal status are absolutely nothing to do with his OP or the matter in hand.

So back on topic? And to clarify, an owned home makes you an occupier there even if you spent half the year in a tent in Connemara.

I'm just making an assumption here but the title of the thread is "RS Tenant refusing to leave ....."

To claim Rental Supplement you need to have a tenancy agreement. Just saying like.

donalg1

Best way to get something stubborn to move is with leverage.

If you can get some leverage then your sorted. Are they being honest about their RS?

harney

Some info here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/rent_a_room_scheme.html

Your rights and obligations as a landlord

If you choose to rent out a room in your home, you are not covered by landlord/tenant legislation in Ireland. This means that you are not obliged to register with the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) as a landlord, provide a rent book to the tenant or ensure that the accommodation provided meets any minimum physical standards.

This also means that private tenants living in your home are living under alicensee agreement not a tenancy agreement and are really only entitled to reasonable notice if you choose to terminate the agreement. Tenants are, however, entitled to refer disputes regarding periods of reasonable notice, retention of deposits, and disputes regarding deductions from rent for damage to property that is over and above normal wear and tear to the Small Claims Court.

The not so good part........................

Rules

To get rent a room relief:

• The total (gross) rent you get from your tenant (or tenants), which includes sums the tenant pays for food, laundry or similar goods and services, cannot exceed €10,000. If you get rental income over and above this amount, you are not entitled to the relief
  
• Your home must be in Ireland and must be occupied by you during the year of assessment as your principal private residence.

djimi

n900guy wrote: »

Let's see the law that describes what an occupier is. His tax and legal status are absolutely nothing to do with his OP or the matter in hand.

So back on topic? And to clarify, an owned home makes you an occupier there even if you spent half the year in a tent in Connemara.

Whether or not he is an occupier has a bearing on the OP as it determines what rights his tenants have. They have more rights and its a different process for asking them to leave if they are tenants in their own house as opposed to lodging with an owner occupier.

Burnbaby76

Okay just to clarify....

I have been staying there on and off - just not daily.

The RS lodger who has created this situation, is in the house since sept. 11.

When moving in I explained my circumstances, and all parties were in agreement.

The rent is paid monthly via the rent a room scheme.

I have had previous lodger that used this, but I've never had any issues - apart from this one.... and it's proving a head ache and a half!!!

athtrasna

As per Harney's post above...if it's not your principal residence (which you indicate by saying you only stay there on and off) then your tenants are tenants and have much stronger rights than if you were actually living there. Six weeks notice would still be enough but you would have to initiate formal eviction proceedings and anything like changing locks could leave you liable to a fine (up to 10k) for illegal eviction.

If you live in the house as your principal place of residence then you can operate under rent a room rules. As you say you don't, you are a landlord renting a room. And so you have tax liabilities.

Burnbaby76

Can I get clarification on something so... by the same argument

Male and female are dating... both have houses in their own names. They also have housemates.

they decide to spend a few weeks together in one location... does that mean one is no longer an owner occupier?

As per tax liabilities... This issue was clarified by revenue prior to undertaking this situation. There are none.

athtrasna wrote: »

As per Harney's post above...if it's not your principal residence (which you indicate by saying you only stay there on and off) then your tenants are tenants and have much stronger rights than if you were actually living there. Six weeks notice would still be enough but you would have to initiate formal eviction proceedings and anything like changing locks could leave you liable to a fine (up to 10k) for illegal eviction.

Not to mention the fact that you are not entitled to the tax free earnings you would be entitled to under rent a room if you actually lived there. And so you have tax liabilities.

athtrasna

Harney's post (bold section) is the key. Not just to tax but as to rights on both sides.

Burnbaby76

athtrasna wrote: »

Harney's post (bold section) is the key. Not just to tax but as to rights on both sides.

Tax years are Jan - Dec.

This person is not in situ for a year, 6 months only in total.

athtrasna

Burnbaby76 wrote: »

Tax years are Jan - Dec.

This person is not in situ for a year, 6 months only in total.

Yes but how long have you been actually resident between Jan & Dec? If you haven't lived there as your principal residence, the tenant would have attained Part 4 tenancy under the RTA and you would have to evict formally. If it was genuinely your principal residence then they are licensees not tenants and have few rights if any and can be asked to move out with little or no notice.

GetWithIt

Burnbaby76 wrote: »

Okay just to clarify....

I have been staying there on and off - just not daily.

The RS lodger who has created this situation, is in the house since sept. 11.

When moving in I explained my circumstances, and all parties were in agreement.

The rent is paid monthly via the rent a room scheme.

I have had previous lodger that used this, but I've never had any issues - apart from this one.... and it's proving a head ache and a half!!!

This clarifies very little for me. Does your tenant receive Rental Supplement? Did your tenant sign a lease?

The rent is paid monthly via the rent a room scheme.

??