Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Done?

plasmaguy

CSF wrote: »

Net spend is a poor excuse for poor performance at best. When a manager comes into a club he has his own ideas for playing football. Some highly talented players come into this, some don't. Every manager who comes into a club will want the highest available budget to sign these players. The ones for his team.

The ones that leave barely come into the equation. If anything, it is a bonus to have them there as they create the precious funds to create the team that you want. Dalglish had 100 million to create that team, aswell as already established Premiership players like Reina, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Lucas, Kuyt, Johnson and some squad players to make some good bones for a team meaning he wouldn't have to sign a player for every position. Unfortunately Dalglish has signed very poorly for the most part.

Both Carroll and Suarez for example have had seasons blighted by injury and suspensions. To use their seasons as a basis to say they aren't good enough is wrong.

It's hard to miss 8 games and come back at 100%. Also hard to come back from injury.

Let's see how next season turns out.

Anyone would think Benitez made world class signings by the way. Most of his signings were far worse than Dalglish, that Russian forward, can't even remember his name, also a couple of other strikers who were poor, Acquilani, and several more.

Benitez had 5 years to get it right and couldn't, Dalglish has only been given 1 year.

LuckyLloyd

jank wrote: »

There we have it, LuckyLloyd thinks winning the Carling cup is better than a top 4 league finish.

It certainly felt better than finishing fourth on the last day of the season would. I appreciate you are out of practice as an Arsenal fan on what winning things means, so you'll have to take my word on this.

MrMatisse

plasmaguy wrote: »

Both Carroll and Suarez for example have had seasons blighted by injury and suspensions. To use their seasons as a basis to say they aren't good enough is wrong.

It's hard to miss 8 games and come back at 100%. Also hard to come back from injury.

Let's see how next season turns out.

Anyone would think Benitez made world class signings by the way. Most of his signings were far worse than Dalglish, that Russian forward, can't even remember his name, also a couple of other strikers who were poor, Acquilani, and several more.

Benitez had 5 years to get it right and couldn't, Dalglish has only been given 1 year.

Eh reina, torres, alonso, mascherano, won the champions league:rolleyes:

Jesus Wept

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

Yes, but this is football.

The net spend argument is invariably trotted out after a failure of some sort...usually by a Liverpool fan who is trying to justify why the team are doing poorly. 'Sure Carroll, Henderson, and Downing have made no appreciable difference to our team, but we sold Torres for £50 million...so we really only spent circa £15-20 million'.

It's not an argument, it's just a fact.
It's not an excuse either, thus far it appears that Kenny/Comolli bought very poorly, I don't deny that.

However, about £30m was put into the squad (and a similar amount was apparently clawed back in the wage bill). They had an opportunity to what they have been hinting at (moneyball) but have failed to do so by actually buying dross.

LuckyLloyd

alproctor wrote: »

True that, but you must admit that Arsenal are closer to winning a major trophy than Liverpool....

And I know the Carling Cup is classed as a major trophy, but the league, and CL qualification is where it's at.

They're both a million miles away from winning the league or champions league to be honest.

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It certainly felt better than finishing fourth on the last day of the season would. I appreciate you are out of practice as an Arsenal fan on what winning things means, so you'll have to take my word on this.

Win the FA Cup and yous can melt them down to make another Andy Carroll statue.

Al Capwned

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They're both a million miles away from winning the league or champions league to be honest.

Abosulutely agree with you, but atm, Arsenal have a better squad than Liverpool.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

Win the FA Cup and yous can melt them down to make another Andy Carroll statue.

Or we could make a replica of one to help ye get the Emirates trophy cabinet on the go?

LuckyLloyd

alproctor wrote: »

Abosulutely agree with you, but atm, Arsenal have a better squad than Liverpool.

Yeah, they do. They are also heavily dependent on a player who may not be there for much longer and have an awful lot of work to do like Liverpool to get to where they would like to be.

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Or we could make a replica of one to help ye get the Emirates trophy cabinet on the go?

We could buy a more prestigious one for a score anyway, we have a few quid lying around.

cson

This is getting very childish and petty re the Arsenal and Liverpool comparisons.

Tesco Massacre

The-Rigger wrote: »

It's not an argument, it's just a fact.
It's not an excuse either, thus far it appears that Kenny/Comolli bought very poorly, I don't deny that.

However, about £30m was put into the squad (and a similar amount was apparently clawed back in the wage bill). They had an opportunity to what they have been hinting at (moneyball) but have failed to do so by actually buying dross.

Fair enough.

Net spend is a fact, of course, but then other facts must be accounted for as well, namely the the shoddy results under Dalglish (I'm not trolling here, I'm sticking to the main point of the OP). There is no conceivable reason why Liverpool should be languishing so far behind Arsenal, for instance, considering the respective talents of both squads.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

We could buy a more prestigious one for a score anyway, we have a few quid lying around.

Well, I certainly think ye would prefer to spend that money on something other than players, so that doesn't sound too implausible!

CSF

plasmaguy wrote: »

Both Carroll and Suarez for example have had seasons blighted by injury and suspensions. To use their seasons as a basis to say they aren't good enough is wrong.

It's hard to miss 8 games and come back at 100%. Also hard to come back from injury.

Let's see how next season turns out.

Anyone would think Benitez made world class signings by the way. Most of his signings were far worse than Dalglish, that Russian forward, can't even remember his name, also a couple of other strikers who were poor, Acquilani, and several more.

Benitez had 5 years to get it right and couldn't, Dalglish has only been given 1 year.

MrMatisse wrote: »

Eh reina, torres, alonso, mascherano, won the champions league:rolleyes:

Well there you are. I didn't even have to give a counter argument, it was so glaringly obvious that it was unnecessary.

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yeah, they do. They are also heavily dependent on a player who may not be there for much longer and have an awful lot of work to do like Liverpool to get to where they would like to be.

Howso? Leaving RVP's goals out Arsenal have just one less goal in the PL this season than Liverpool. If Arsenal are a one-man team then it follows that Liverpool are a no-man team.

plasmaguy

The point is, the value of the squad has only increased by 50 million Euro, which is nothing these days.

And with that 50 million he has got in a lot of good players who are just not gelling yet or have been injured.

If his nett spend was 300 million, and they were still 6th or 7th, then yes, definitely he should be sacked.

But as I said before, Dalglish laid the foundations for further Liverpool success by the time he left first time around, and it's not his fault those who succeeded him couldn't build on them.

LuckyLloyd

cson wrote: »

This is getting very childish and petty re the Arsenal and Liverpool comparisons.

You're right, a discussion about sacking Kenny Dalglish right now this minute (when everyone knows that won't happen) demands full serious business concentration and effort!

RasTa

amacachi wrote: »

Howso? Leaving RVP's goals out Arsenal have just one less goal in the PL this season than Liverpool. If Arsenal are a one-man team then it follows that Liverpool are a no-man team.

Yeah but how many trophies has this no man team won this season!?

plasmaguy

MrMatisse wrote: »

Eh reina, torres, alonso, mascherano, won the champions league:rolleyes:

Wtf? none of those players won the Champions League, not with Liverpool at least

Anyways, on paper I don't think you could buy a better player than Suarez. He was class at WC 2010, class at Ajax, and top scorer as Uruagay won the Copa America. It's hard to beat that. His season at Liverpool has been blighted by indiscipline and injuries, but he's still young, so expected really.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

Howso? Leaving RVP's goals out Arsenal have just one less goal in the PL this season than Liverpool. If Arsenal are a one-man team then it follows that Liverpool are a no-man team.

Do we really need to debate whether Arsenal would be in the top four without the services of RVP this year? Is that even an arguable point?

amacachi

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah but how many trophies has this no man team won this season!?

One. Hey if Liverpool are happy where they are then great, suits me as an Arsenal fan for things to continue as they are.

Kylo Ren

Hope he stays. Should be given a 2 year contract extension to see what he can do. More funding in the summer too.

cson

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're right, a discussion about sacking Kenny Dalglish right now this minute (when everyone knows that won't happen) demands full serious business concentration and effort!

You know what, I understand you're upset about the result today and its probably easy to vent here but there's no need to be a dick about it either.

CSF

I honestly can't believe Liverpool are throwing around having won the League Cup to a rebuttal to anything.

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Do we really need to debate whether Arsenal would be in the top four without the services of RVP this year? Is that even an arguable point?

Let's see how far clear of 5th they finish before we start. :pac:

LuckyLloyd

cson wrote: »

You know what, I understand you're upset about the result today and its probably easy to vent here but there's no need to be a dick about it either.

How am I being a dick? Lighten up buddy!

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

I honestly can't believe Liverpool are throwing around having won the League Cup to a rebuttal to anything.

You're right, the results a team garners in the competitions they enter are obviously irrelevant when it comes to assessing their performance in any given season.

rossie1977

CSF wrote: »

I honestly can't believe Liverpool are throwing around having won the League Cup to a rebuttal to anything.

to be fair winning a competition where you beat stoke, chelsea and city all away from home counts for something

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're right, the results a team garners in the competitions they enter are obviously irrelevant when it comes to assessing their performance in any given season.

The League Cup is practically worthless at this stage. Reserve teams all over the shop. Finishing 3rd instead of 4th is more commendable than winning the League Cup, finishing 5th instead of 6th is more commendable than winning the League Cup.

It is an achievement alright, but only just about.

plasmaguy

alproctor wrote: »

True that, but you must admit that Arsenal are closer to winning a major trophy than Liverpool....

And I know the Carling Cup is classed as a major trophy, but the league, and CL qualification is where it's at.

I don't admit it. Wenger is over-rated as a manager in my view and is living off past successes.

He struck gold with the golden generation of invincibles, but since then has bought flop after flop after flop with a very rare succesful signing, maybe 1 in 10.

The only reason Arsenal come good at the end of seasons in the league these days is because they have been knocked out of every other tournament and have nothing else to focus on!

But Wenger winning trophies, forget about it. Top 4 finish, that's it.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

The League Cup is practically worthless at this stage. Reserve teams all over the shop. Finishing 3rd instead of 4th is more commendable than winning the League Cup, finishing 5th instead of 6th is more commendable than winning the League Cup.

It is an achievement alright, but only just about.

Except from, you know, Stoke / Chelsea / City.

CSF

rossie1977 wrote: »

to be fair winning a competition where you beat stoke, chelsea and city all away from home counts for something

Chelsea reserves, same as Manchester United reserves were in there, same as it was Man City reserves up until the semi-final.

It counts for something alright, but not a whole lot unless you're a really small club for whom any success is an achievement.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Except from, you know, Stoke / Chelsea / City.

Have you actually looked at the Chelsea team you played? Reserve team.

plasmaguy

CSF wrote: »

I honestly can't believe Liverpool are throwing around having won the League Cup to a rebuttal to anything.

Another League only fan.

Success equals winning trophies, not finishing in top 4.

I'd rather have a load of trophies in my collection than top 4 league finishes.

amacachi

plasmaguy wrote: »

I don't admit it. Wenger is over-rated as a manager in my view and is living off past successes.

He struck gold with the golden generation of invincibles, but since then has bought flop after flop after flop with a very rare succesful signing, maybe 1 in 10.

The only reason Arsenal come good at the end of seasons in the league these days is because they have been knocked out of every other tournament and have nothing else to focus on!

But Wenger winning trophies, forget about it. Top 4 finish, that's it.

He's solidified Arsenal in a position where they need to be over the last few seasons. Arsenal can afford to miss out on the CL and still have enough to keep at the same spending levels next season. It would take a spend of about 100million IMO to genuinely challenge for the title and I'm glad they're not spending that kind of cash. Arsenal's sponsorship will run out in a coupla years and there'll be a ****load more money available. Arsenal could well end up spending more once FFP comes in, there won't be many other teams who can do that. As for recent signings, Vermaelen is excellent, Koscielny has come good, Sagna is possibly the best FB in the league, Chesney still looks a good prospect, Mertesacker provided stability etc. etc. There's been a few misses but Arsenal don't allow themselves the luxury of spunking money "because they have to."

Wrong place for this discussion though, I'll happily meet you in the Arsenal thread if you wish.

CSF

plasmaguy wrote: »

Another League only fan.

Success equals winning trophies, not finishing in top 4.

I'd rather have a load of trophies in my collection than top 4 league finishes.

But Liverpool don't have a load of trophies to speak of late. They have 1 League Cup trophy, doesn't even match up to 1 top 4 finish.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

Have you actually looked at the Chelsea team you played? Reserve team.

Mata, Torres, Lampard, Malouda, Bosingwa, Luiz still on the pitch all the same.

But yeah, it wasn't their strongest 11. City certainly played their best team in the semis.

Oranage2

amacachi wrote: »

He's solidified Arsenal in a position where they need to be over the last few seasons. Arsenal can afford to miss out on the CL and still have enough to keep at the same spending levels next season. It would take a spend of about 100million IMO to genuinely challenge for the title and I'm glad they're not spending that kind of cash. Arsenal's sponsorship will run out in a coupla years and there'll be a ****load more money available. Arsenal could well end up spending more once FFP comes in, there won't be many other teams who can do that. As for recent signings, Vermaelen is excellent, Koscielny has come good, Sagna is possibly the best FB in the league, Chesney still looks a good prospect, Mertesacker provided stability etc. etc. There's been a few misses but Arsenal don't allow themselves the luxury of spunking money "because they have to."

Wrong place for this discussion though, I'll happily meet you in the Arsenal thread if you wish.

I wouldnt even bother -He's a clueless troll.

amacachi

I dunno who to aim this at really but would anyone really want to see any of Carroll, Henderson, Adam or Downing in a team with top 4 pretensions? Even leaving the cost aside for now.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

I dunno who to aim this at really but would anyone really want to see any of Carroll, Henderson, Adam or Downing in a team with top 4 pretensions? Even leaving the cost aside for now.

No, they were piss poor signings. I was irate last summer in the Liverpool thread. I would rather we stood pat and worked with what we had then spend what we did on the likes of Carroll / Downing / Henderson while sending Meireles away without a fight. It was a terrible summer window as I said at the time.

We have them now though, and hopefully Commolli and the owners have learned an awful lot from the experience and will only sanction wiser purchases in the future.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Mata, Torres, Lampard, Malouda, Bosingwa, Luiz still on the pitch all the same.

But yeah, it wasn't their strongest 11. City certainly played their best team in the semis.

Of the 11 that started that match, you could really only say that Luiz was first choice at the time, and if they could have rested him, they would have.

I made sure not to make comment on the worthlessness of the cup at the time, because I didn't feel it was right to be pissing on people's parade, but if Liverpool fans are going to be throwing that win around as if it makes their dick any bigger than anyone elses, then a reality check needs to be brought into play.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

Of the 11 that started that match, you could really only say that Luiz was first choice at the time, and if they could have rested him, they would have.

I made sure not to make comment on the worthlessness of the cup at the time, because I didn't feel it was right to be pissing on people's parade, but if Liverpool fans are going to be throwing that win around as if it makes their dick any bigger than anyone elses, then a reality check needs to be brought into play.

No, it's much simpler than that. We got a great day out and the wonderful experience of winning. And that means an awful lot, and is something that is being woefully undervalued by many people when it suits them.

plasmaguy

amacachi wrote: »

He's solidified Arsenal in a position where they need to be over the last few seasons. Arsenal can afford to miss out on the CL and still have enough to keep at the same spending levels next season. It would take a spend of about 100million IMO to genuinely challenge for the title and I'm glad they're not spending that kind of cash. Arsenal's sponsorship will run out in a coupla years and there'll be a ****load more money available. Arsenal could well end up spending more once FFP comes in, there won't be many other teams who can do that. As for recent signings, Vermaelen is excellent, Koscielny has come good, Sagna is possibly the best FB in the league, Chesney still looks a good prospect, Mertesacker provided stability etc. etc. There's been a few misses but Arsenal don't allow themselves the luxury of spunking money "because they have to."

Wrong place for this discussion though, I'll happily meet you in the Arsenal thread if you wish.

Grand, will just say this, it's been said about Arsenal at the start of every season that this is the year they will do it. I see nothing in the current Arsenal team to indicate next year will be different. You can't really rely on one striker, because if he misses a few games, you end up with a bad run of results. There is no foundations at Arsenal. Let's see how well Podolsky does. But seriously how long more can Arsenal tolerate not winning silverware?

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, they were piss poor signings. I was irate last summer in the Liverpool thread. I would rather we stood pat and worked with what we had then spend what we did on the likes of Carroll / Downing / Henderson while sending Meireles away without a fight. It was a terrible summer window as I said at the time.

We have them now though, and hopefully Commolli and the owners have learned an awful lot from the experience and will only sanction wiser purchases in the future.

If you controlled the purse strings would you trust Kenny (who you didn't mention there) and the rest with £50-odd million this coming Sunday that needed to be invested rather than found from clearing other players out?

plasmaguy

CSF wrote: »

Of the 11 that started that match, you could really only say that Luiz was first choice at the time, and if they could have rested him, they would have.

I made sure not to make comment on the worthlessness of the cup at the time, because I didn't feel it was right to be pissing on people's parade, but if Liverpool fans are going to be throwing that win around as if it makes their dick any bigger than anyone elses, then a reality check needs to be brought into play.

I'm pretty sure most teams, such as Arsenal go all out to win the League Cup among other trophies. Didn't they lose in the final last year, after people were saying they would finally win something. It is actually a very competitive competition, with most PL teams trying to win it.

markie29

smokedeels wrote: »

Did Dalglish give a post-match interview today?

according to LFCTV he said the players were ´tired´ shyt excuse after so many shyt performances in the league

amacachi

plasmaguy wrote: »

Grand, will just say this, it's been said about Arsenal at the start of every season that this is the year they will do it. I see nothing in the current Arsenal team to indicate next year will be different. You can't really rely on one striker, because if he misses a few games, you end up with a bad run of results. There is no foundations at Arsenal. Let's see how well Podolsky does. But seriously how long more can Arsenal tolerate not winning silverware?

Have a look at the Arsenal thread, I don't think there was a single person who thought we had a shot at the league this year. On the other hand I've put up with "This is our year" from Liverpool fans since before I can remember. Finish 4th, sign a mediocre coupla players, have a chance at the league. Sure look at the Liverpool thread, even a coupla posters in there like to use the "our year" thing as a joke.
I could tolerate 3 more seasons as long as we're really challenging for the title in the third year. Not worried about the cups but a CL run would be nice. when we have a financial advantage and little to no debt to worry about. If Liverpool ever actually get the finger out and build a stadium the fans will be in for the shock of their lives when they see what it means financially for at least half a dozen years.

plasmaguy

Oranage2 wrote: »

I wouldnt even bother -He's a clueless troll.

Reported!

Trying to have a mature discussion here and throwing around the terms Troll is just incredibly childish to be fair.

In any case you haven't bothered to offer a mature opinion on anything in this thread so your not worth it.

Come back when you have something intelligent to say about football sonny.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

If you controlled the purse strings would you trust Kenny (who you didn't mention there) and the rest with £50-odd million this coming Sunday that needed to be invested rather than found from clearing other players out?

I'd be weighing the opinions of the scouting infastructure and Commolli very heavily, and asking an awful lot of questions before any English player is purchased.

Morzadec

The League Cup win does not excuse the poor League form. No way.

But anyone dismissing it as a worthless achievement or suggesting that it's an easy trophy to win is having a laugh to be honest. Did these people follow Liverpool's League Cup run at all or just watch the final where we struggled?

Stoke, Chelsea away and City over two legs all played more or less strong teams. There were no kids being given run outs in these games. The performance against Stoke was decent, against Chelsea very good and both legs against City excellent (you have to be to beat a team like City). You'd swear we had beaten a bunch of Amateur teams the way some go on.

Anyway as for Kenny: -

If you had asked me a week ago I would say give him another season (largely because I thought we 'ran bad' a lot at the start of the season and were generally for the most part dominating games and doing the right things, without the quality up front to demonstrate the dominance on the scoreboard. I thought the same approach, the same team and manager but with a top quality forward could achieve about 20 more points, converting frustrating draws into wins). But 2 very bad defeats against weak opposition and looking at the league table as it stands makes his position appear very untenable...

We'll know more at the end of the season. Can he deliver the FA Cup? Can he at least save some face in the League and not get dragged into a midtable scrap with the likes of Norwich and Swansea?

But for now, the results are certainly unacceptable and the signs are not good.

Who knows, we may look back on these few results and say they were positive in the longterm. In real terms they mean nothing, but they could bring about a change (a possible return of Rafa?) that Liverpool maybe need.