Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Done?

Nalz

SlickRic wrote: »

not the competition.

I haven't read the posts related to this and its probably noted, but wouldnt this stand if you were referring to 2 legged games?

Flancrest

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't care what you say. the primary thing a manager looks at for a game against a team is NOT the competition they are playing in.

it's just preposterous. completely and utterly preposterous.

What are you basing this on.
This is all hearsay.

kryogen

Flancrest wrote: »

Again this is your opinion. Not one that is shared by many people with a vast knowledge of football management

You know everybody with a vast knowledge of football management?

How vast could yours be at the age of 26 btw?

The very notion that teams base their tactics on whether they are playing in the FA cup, the Premier League or the Champions League/Europa League is unbelievably insulting to the managers in question.

They could not base the tactical approach based on it.

A nice simple example for you

Chelsea are playing Genk

Do you think Chelsea sit off them and all that other crap you go on about because its a European tie? Or do you think Chelsea look at the opposition, judge their strengths and weaknesses and formulate a strategy based on that?

No rational/intelligent person could really agree with your line of thinking/trolling,whichever it is, here.

sReq | uTeK

Flancrest wrote: »

Again this is your opinion. Not one that is shared by many people with a vast knowledge of football management

People are very quick to hide behind their opinions sadly, it's not always this way and certain things ARE black and white.

for instance, I could say, 'well it's my opinion that 2+2 doesn't equate to 4'

Now I could have a forum tell me I'm wrong but hey that's my opinion.

It's not an opinion of yours it's just illusions of grandeur, honestly you have no clue what you're on about.

SlickRic

Trilla wrote: »

I haven't read the posts related to this and its probably noted, but wouldnt this stand if you were referring to 2 legged games?

for 2 legged games, you could have a team looking to defend a bit more to make sure they keep it tight. absolutely, but that's not the argument.

he believes the competition is the main basis by which tactics are come up with. which is completely and utterly ludicrous. if the argument was that it was just A consideration that managers take, then there'd be no argument. obviously.

the argument is that it's the predominant one, and that the opposition is largely irrelevant.

Sgt Pepper 64

Flancrest wrote: »

Again this is your opinion. Not one that is shared by many people with a vast knowledge of football management

O dear god!

Read pretty much ANY european game pre or post match comments\tactical breakdown and you will find quotes like

"We knew that so and so like to get forward, so we moved so and so over to counter that"

from the Chelsea V Benfica match
"Additionally, Torres was told to drift toward that space in order to take advantage of Maxi Pereira’s bold positioning - and dragging his direct marker with him."

"Ramires, playing to the right, but narrower than Kalou, helped create numerical superiority in midfield and often tried to take on Emerson, since Bruno Cesar (and then Gaitan, after his permanent move to the left) rarely tracked back, leaving acres of space for the Blues midfielder, nicknamed “the Kenyan” at Benfica, to exploit"

Full article here
http://www.portugoal.net/index.php/more-champions-league-news/32395-benfica-0-1-chelsea-tactical-breakdown

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Flancrest is probably having the time of his life behind his keyboard.. Top class in fairness.

Flancrest

kryogen wrote: »

You know everybody with a vast knowledge of football management?

How vast could yours be at the age of 26 btw?

The very notion that teams base their tactics on whether they are playing in the FA cup, the Premier League or the Champions League/Europa League is unbelievably insulting to the managers in question.

They could not base the tactical approach based on it.

A nice simple example for you

Chelsea are playing Genk

Do you think Chelsea sit off them and all that other crap you go on about because its a European tie? Or do you think Chelsea look at the opposition, judge their strengths and weaknesses and formulate a strategy based on that?

No rational/intelligent person could really agree with your line of thinking/trolling,whichever it is, here.

In this case Chelsea will employ their European tactics for games they think they will dominate.

counterlock

He's like a (d)evolved version of TheLynx

SlickRic

Flancrest wrote: »

In this case Chelsea will employ their European tactics for games they think they will dominate.

or they just go out to dominate.

Europe or no Europe.

some European clubs play a different style of football to what you see in the Premier League. that's a given. but that means Chelsea adapt to that team and what they're offering.

they don't bring out their "Folder of European Tactics", and pick one.

willmunny1990

THFC wrote: »

Flancrest is probably having the time of his life behind his keyboard.. Top class in fairness.

Hes playing a blinder to be fair.

_blank_

Flancrest wrote: »

Again this is your opinion. Not one that is shared by many people with a vast knowledge of football management

vast knowledge?

go on then, what vast knowledge?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dub13

Des wrote: »

vast knowledge?

go on then, what vast knowledge?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I bet he is an ace at Championship Manager.

kryogen

Flancrest wrote: »

In this case Chelsea will employ their European tactics for games they think they will dominate.

Brilliant!

Sorry pal, the lack of knowledge and the love of the wind up, admirable as it is just doesn't hold up. You can't pass your posts off as serious anymore

I was enjoying you

Flancrest

Dub13 wrote: »

I bet he is an ace at Championship Manager.

Actually I have managed both the UNDER 14 AND 15s when in secondary school and I would always preach the importance of playing the competition as opposed to the team.
If you think about it logically losing a game in a league isn't the end of the world as you have numerous games to recover but if you lose a cup game thats it.

PhlegmyMoses

TBF, you should probably debate the points rather than replying calling WUM. If he holds a different opinion then argue the other side if you disagree. I don't personally agree but that's neither here nor there.

Flancrest

kryogen wrote: »

Brilliant!

Sorry pal, the lack of knowledge and the love of the wind up, admirable as it is just doesn't hold up. You can't pass your posts off as serious anymore

I was enjoying you

What lack of knowledge. If the only input you have is to call me a WUM don't bother as it shows you have conceded my points are more logical than yours and thus resort to name calling.

Leave that in the playground it will have no bearing on the outcome of this discussion

SlickRic

Flancrest wrote: »

If you think about it logically losing a game in a league isn't the end of the world as you have numerous games to recover but if you lose a cup game thats it.

Kenny?

I am pie

Anyway Flancrest, thanks for the laughs. This definitely brightened up my afternoon and also brightened up an otherwise fairly uninspiring scouse baiting thread. I actually did 'laugh out loud' at a few of your comments. Inspired trollin'...

Do teams in Europe play differently in the Champions League, the Europa League and in the knock out stages of those competitions : ) after all, at a certain stage these euro leagues turn into cups : )

Nalz

SlickRic wrote: »

he believes the competition is the main basis by which tactics are come up with. which is completely and utterly ludicrous

Agreed.

Dub13

Flancrest wrote: »

Actually I have managed both the UNDER 14 AND 15s when in secondary school and I would always preach the importance of playing the competition as opposed to the team.
If you think about it logically losing a game in a league isn't the end of the world as you have numerous games to recover but if you lose a cup game thats it.

If you think about it logically the pro game is a tab different to the U14/U15 game.

Xavi6

Today's Twitter gem -

Everton have announced a new kit deal. That's like winning a trophy in that part of the world

Flancrest

Dub13 wrote: »

If you think about it logically the pro game is a tab different to the U14/U15 game.

Not according to FIFA or UEFA. The games fundementals stay the same regardless of the level it's played at. Of course the quality of play will be vastly improved but that has no bearing on this arguement

SlickRic

Flancrest wrote: »

Not according to FIFA or UEFA. The games fundementals stay the same regardless of the level it's played at. Of course the quality of play will be vastly improved but that has no bearing on this arguement

have you disregarded this as proof that you're talking through your hoop?

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Read pretty much ANY european game pre or post match comments\tactical breakdown and you will find quotes like

"We knew that so and so like to get forward, so we moved so and so over to counter that"

from the Chelsea V Benfica match
"Additionally, Torres was told to drift toward that space in order to take advantage of Maxi Pereira’s bold positioning - and dragging his direct marker with him."

"Ramires, playing to the right, but narrower than Kalou, helped create numerical superiority in midfield and often tried to take on Emerson, since Bruno Cesar (and then Gaitan, after his permanent move to the left) rarely tracked back, leaving acres of space for the Blues midfielder, nicknamed “the Kenyan” at Benfica, to exploit"

Full article here
http://www.portugoal.net/index.php/more-champions-league-news/32395-benfica-0-1-chelsea-tactical-breakdown

I am pie

Flancrest wrote: »

Not according to FIFA or UEFA. The games fundementals stay the same regardless of the level it's played at. Of course the quality of play will be vastly improved but that has no bearing on this arguement

And ..*muffled laughter*, tell me, how does one get the job of u14 and u16 team manager whilst still in school ?

Do the fundamentals of the game not stay the same regardless of what the prize on offer is? According to FIFA/UEFA like?

Go on, extend this out for our futher entertainment. If Liverpool met Utd in the Cup final and also in the Champs league final next year (humour me) would they change their game? What about champs league group games vs knockout stage..Liverpool v Utd. All different games?

based on your schoolboy managing schoolboy experience like?

Sgt Pepper 64

I am pie wrote: »

Anyway Flancrest, thanks for the laughs. This definitely brightened up my afternoon and also brightened up an otherwise fairly uninspiring scouse baiting thread. I actually did 'laugh out loud' at a few of your comments. Inspired trollin'...

Do teams in Europe play differently in the Champions League, the Europa League and in the knock out stages of those competitions : ) after all, at a certain stage these euro leagues turn into cups : )

What do teams at the Olympics do? :eek:

Domestic\European\Olympic or World tactics

(Hint At least one of those tactics is made up!)

Flancrest

SlickRic wrote: »

have you disregarded this as proof that you're talking through your hoop?

These are the opinions of a journalist. He is simply guessing about Chelseas tactics for this game.

LuckyLloyd

Thread solidly derailed. Outstanding.

Flancrest

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Thread solidly derailed. Outstanding.

To be fair I'm more than willing to go back on topic and I feel it has been posts atacking my moral fibre that have derailed this thread.

I am pie

Flancrest wrote: »

To be fair I'm more than willing to go back on topic and I feel it has been posts atacking my moral fibre that have derailed this thread.

It's your understanding of some fairly simple footballing concepts we're attacking. Morality hasn't come into it.

Sgt Pepper 64

Flancrest wrote: »

These are the opinions of a journalist. He is simply guessing about Chelseas tactics for this game.

From the official site

Vs Spurs Chelsea (4-2-3-1) LEAGUE MATCH
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2691221,00.html
Vs Benfica Chelsea (4-2-3-1) EUROPEAN CUP MATCH
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2697506,00.html

SlickRic

bottom line. Kenny didn't buy Downing and Adam for European competition, which is how this whole sorry mess started.

Flancrest

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

From the official site

Vs Spurs Chelsea (4-2-3-1) LEAGUE MATCH
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2691221,00.html
Vs Benfica Chelsea (4-2-3-1) EUROPEAN CUP MATCH
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2697506,00.html

Regretfully I cannot access these links as I am in work

Dimithy

Flancrest wrote: »

To be fair I'm more than willing to go back on topic and I feel it has been posts atacking my moral fibre that have derailed this thread.

The only consideration managers make based on the competition is whether they are in a one game knockout, two legged knockout, or league format. Then you of course have finals which again would be different. The actual competition you are playing in has nothing to do with it.
If Liverpool play Chelsea in two legged game, it doesn't matter if it is in the Champions league or the Inter Galactic World series, they will play the games based on the fact that its a two legged tie, and the team they are playing. Just as they would employ different tactics if they were playing Barcelona in the same scenario.

Saying otherwise is nonsense.

Dub13

Flancrest wrote: »

Not according to FIFA or UEFA. The games fundementals stay the same regardless of the level it's played at. Of course the quality of play will be vastly improved but that has no bearing on this arguement

Its fundamentally different if you make a balls up of something in a champions league final as opposed to an U14/U15 game.To say this does not change the dynamics of a game is well non sense.

Flancrest

SlickRic wrote: »

bottom line. Kenny didn't buy Downing and Adam for European competition, which is how this whole sorry mess started.

Sorry but I think you'll find he did buy them for this European football. Don't tell me you are yet to grasp the point of my argument

Flancrest

Dub13 wrote: »

Its fundamentally different if you make a balls up of something in a champions league final as opposed to an U14/U15 game.To say this does not change the dynamics of a game is well non sense.

Not to the kids it doesn't

SlickRic

Flancrest wrote: »

Sorry but I think you'll find he did buy them for this European football. Don't tell me you are yet to grasp the point of my argument

i grasp it just fine as the nonsense it is, thanks.

Flancrest

SlickRic wrote: »

i grasp it just fine as the nonsense it is, thanks.

Do you grasp what debate is though. If you have a valid arguement about this subject that is more logical than mine i'll happily talk it out with you

kryogen

Flancrest wrote: »

Do you grasp what debate is though. If you have a valid arguement about this subject that is more logical than mine i'll happily talk it out with you

You won't, you haven't and why would there be any suggestion that you would in the future?

Flancrest

Dimithy wrote: »

The only consideration managers make based on the competition is whether they are in a one game knockout, two legged knockout, or league format. Then you of course have finals which again would be different. The actual competition you are playing in has nothing to do with it.
If Liverpool play Chelsea in two legged game, it doesn't matter if it is in the Champions league or the Inter Galactic World series, they will play the games based on the fact that its a two legged tie, and the team they are playing. Just as they would employ different tactics if they were playing Barcelona in the same scenario.

Saying otherwise is nonsense.

It does because one is an actual competition

Flancrest

kryogen wrote: »

You won't, you haven't and why would there be any suggestion that you would in the future?

Sorry I don't quite understand what you mean by this

chopperbyrne

I'm in agreement. If you set up your side based on the opposition, you're doomed to failure. You've just conceded to leave your comfort zone and let the other team play how they want.

Your gameplan should only ever change based on the competition format, but you should always play the way that suits you.

It's why Barca are so successful. They always play their game no matter the opponent.

billymitchell

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I'm in agreement. If you set up your side based on the opposition, you're doomed to failure. You've just conceded to leave your comfort zone and let the other team play how they want.

Your gameplan should only ever change based on the competition format, but you should always play the way that suits you.

It's why Barca are so successful. They always play their game no matter the opponent.

Xavi, iniesta, messi may also have something to do with Barcelona's success

But a lot of teams do set up differently depending on the opposition. How many teams go away to so called superior teams and park the bus hoping to get a point. Then a week later go out all guns blazing against a so called weaker team to try get all 3

SlickRic

Flancrest wrote: »

Do you grasp what debate is though. If you have a valid arguement about this subject that is more logical than mine i'll happily talk it out with you

you calling my point less logical than yours?

chopperbyrne

billymitchell wrote: »

But a lot of teams do set up differently depending on the opposition. How many teams go away to so called superior teams and park the bus hoping to get a point. Then a week later go out all guns blazing against a so called weaker team to try get all 3

How many of those teams are consistently winning trophies.

I am pie

Flancrest wrote: »

It does because one is an actual competition

The fact that you cannot comment on how playing styles would differ speaks volumes about your marked inability to defend your daft argument. That, and the fact that you've yet to find one other person who agrees with you.

What about knockout vs league rounds in the champs league and Europa league? Are you going to try and answer that point?

Your out there on your own Flancrest. Either you believe you are a visionary who understands the game better than anyone else on here, or..as i suspect, plain old fashioned wrong.

Anyway. No, Kenny is not done. He deserves one more season. If, in his second full season he hasn't taken Liverpool into the top 4 then I would support a change. Too soon to make it now.

Flancrest

I've taken on board what alot of people have said and I'd just like to qualify my point.
I'm not of the opinion that any manager would be able to accomplish these things but Daglish is probably one of the greatest tacticians of all time. Only himself or maybe Ferguson would be able accomplish this.

Nalz

Flancrest wrote: »

Only himself or maybe Ferguson would be able accomplish this.

I think we all agree with you.

Flancrest

I am pie wrote: »

The fact that you cannot comment on how playing styles would differ speaks volumes about your marked inability to defend your daft argument. That, and the fact that you've yet to find one other person who agrees with you.

What about knockout vs league rounds in the champs league and Europa league? Are you going to try and answer that point?

Your out there on your own Flancrest. Either you believe you are a visionary who understands the game better than anyone else on here, or..as i suspect, plain old fashioned wrong.

Anyway. No, Kenny is not done. He deserves one more season. If, in his second full season he hasn't taken Liverpool into the top 4 then I would support a change. Too soon to make it now.

Well based on this thread I clearly know more about football than most.

Also the stage of the competition does not matter all european games are approached the same way